Ok, I don’t know if I should put this in the Feedback forum or in DS3 forum as this will come directly from my first hand experience of the Bard class from the DS3_r7 document…anyway got to start somewhere!

Let’s start with a shocker:
Honestly guys…what do you think of the bard class? Would you play it? Seriously?

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PAUSE! Just something I want to make clear before I go any further: I’m not going to bash the work of somebody else. I just want to make a constructive critic of the class and propose an alternative like I did with the gladiator back in the days of “revision 6”. (“For a reforged gladiator” and “Gladiator redux” under the name Banndon on the WotC forums). I will not propose an alternate bard class right away (still working on it), but it will be done shortly.

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Now to the subject at hand…

Here’s few things to consider:

- The Bard (the concept not the class) is a scoundrel, a jack-of-all-trades, an entertainer, a storyteller, a diplomat, an assasins and last but not least, a master of poisons. Could this concept be represented by the rogue class? Yes. A prestige class on top of that and the answer is: definitly.

-The Bard class from the core D&D3.5 is an hybrid arcane spellcaster able to cast 6th level spells and a skilled class with 6+int points to put in basically everything except typical burglar skills (open lock, disable device, etc). It’s a pretty solid class worth investing several levels into it.

-Bards in Dark Sun is a pure skills and ability class like rogues. They can’t be casting arcane spells; it would just not fit in the setting.

Now the analysis…

-Bardic music ability: OK
-Bardic Knowledge: OK

- BAB: OK, it’s not a frontline fighter so it’s perfectly fine…except if you multiclass and your DM finds fractionnal BAB and saves to complicated..POKE, POKE Grummore ;-)

-Saves: Why the monk saves!?!? This is a blatant sign of a balancing act. “Well they have no spells so let’s boost them somewhere else…” Considering the concept, there’s no reason the bard should have uber-saves and the rogue just a good reflex save. The concepts are pretty close. So the saves should be similar. I’d propose a good reflex save and a strong bonus vs poisons (half the bard levels) because they are exposed to poisons frequently: they make, trade and use poison for a living. It only make sense.

-Skills: 6+Int…now since these guys are going to rely on abilities and skills for adventuring (and not spells)…why not give them 8+Int? If the argument is:“…but rogues have to max out open lock, disable device, search spot, etc to perform their task well.” I’ll reply this: Bards need to max out knowledge local, bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, perform and learn truck loads of language. They need it to perform their function well: be the social face of the party. The guy who knows stuff other people don’t.

-Poisons: The 3.5 poison system is farely simple and it works perfectly fine for NPCs and monsters. BUT it was never designed to be a day to day fact of life for a core class. Think about the cost of crafting poisons. If poisons are meant to replace spells and/or be the offensive equivalent of sneak attacks bards will have to be filthy rich! Think of every combat hit, every dose….$$$$$$$$
If he uses many doses, think how many days and weeks he will spend to craft his own poison to use as a class feature…
Medium to high level NPCs and monsters also have very solid fort saves and the DC of many poison even the very expensive ones are sometimes ridiculously low. Given: some of those poisons are REALLY nasty and sometimes more deadly than a majority of offensive spells.

…getting late…I’ll continue this later. Tell me what you think so far. :-)

not to mention buying literacy….

on the other claw, constant exposure to poisons might help boost fortitude… and the discipline needed to craft a poison could be argued to have the side affect of training the will….

just some thoughts passing by.

I’m checking out some of the poison rules from Pathfinder. The frequency and stacking effect are nice additions…

Really the main problem with poisons (without changing the whole thing) is the cost vs effectiveness. Some poison are VERY effective (ask Grummore what he thinks about a paralysed Klar), but they are only effective if your DM is unlucky. Fortitude saves are probably the strongest/easiest for most high level warrior types and monsters. DC17 is not that much of a big deal when you have +15… Let’s assume a bard as taken a bunch of feats, class features and a bard’s stinger to crank up the DC to 21….still not that bad with most high level characters/monsters.

So if a bard wants to be useful, he either has to overspecialize in poison feats (and suck major ass at everything else) or be very picky with his targets to maximise his chances that his poisons will actually do something that matters …..before the mul fighter power attacks everything into oblivion and the psion splits reality assunder and tell the laws of physics to sit down and STFU.

I’m not asking for poison to disolve monsters into sub-atomic particules, just make them a worth while investement. I wouldn’t like to spend 2000g to craft 6 doses of a potent poison that MAY or MAY NOT work for one encounter (this is still a consummable item), while my buddies stack 2000 gp for there next magic item…get my drift? Remember: no spells, so poisons are a class feature!

Best solution (without altering things too much) is to create a class feature that allow a bard to create something like a 100 gp worth of poisons (free of charge) per day per bard level… Basically going back to the old school darksun bard of 2nd edition who had 1 free dose of poison per day. The background rationnal in this is that everytime a bard enters a city, he can meet up with old buddies in the bard quarter to trade poison components, information, songs, stories, gossips, etc. And if they really are masters of poisons well they can craft them easily on there downtime without spending crafting days and slowing down the group.

Anyway, would really like some feedback on my ideas right now. I know things have been slow with the 4th edition bomb, but I think quite a lot of people are still playing 3.5 and will continue to do so for many years to come.

P.S.: Could someone point me to a thread where there’s a class presented? So I can format it the way you guys are use too.

HI Baddon, even with the improved r7 bard (and the poisonmaster) and the new poison rules in Athasian Emporium, you still find the bard lacking? These two here in particular:
Improvised Materials: You can craft poisons from raw materials at hand instead of relying on specific ingredients. Doing so increases the Craft (poisonmaking) check DC by 5 but otherwise has no effect on the poisonʹs potency.
Poison Dealer: Pay one‐half of the market price for raw materials needed to craft poisons.

Good point!

but still… ( Yeah…I’m like that ;-) )

True, with the more potent poisons, you only have to get them to work ONCE. But at what cost? How many doses? How much Cp? How much crafting time? I’ll consider each of these points individually.

HOW MUCH TIME:

Say a high level bard bard want’s to craft high drik poison (nasty 2D6/1D6 Con damage with DC18, it’s a p.50 in the Emporium*). He might be able to crank that DC up to 22 with a bunch of class feature/prestige class etc. Remember he has to focus on poisons to be any good, otherwise the DC will stay at 18. BTW, throw a DC 22 fort save at a giant, a big monster or a fighter and he will laugh at you. Try an undead, elemental or construct and you are waisting your time…

Let’s say that high level bard rolls 30 for is Craft (poisonmaking) for a craft DC 25. He can make 750Cp of worth of that poison per day….is that that multiple doses? 1? maybe just a fraction of a dose? That’s right it will take him 3,3 days to complete 1 dose of the thing…. Cheaper poison? Black Mastyrial (1300 Cp): roughtly 2 doses in 3 days. You may want to go for the cheap DC 13 poisons…but what good is that going to do? Are you going to pray for the proverbial unlucky “1” from the DM?

HOW MANY DOSES:

How many doses of poison will you use per encounter? 1? 2? Answer is: as much as you can. Why? because the higher you get the more ridiculous that little dagger damage is going to be! (and not all those pre-poisonned daguers are +2 thundering daggers of returning…) So to be efficient in one encounter (that is assuming your enemy is affected by poison to start with) you will have to dishout several days of work to craft the required doses.

HOW MUCH Cp?

Well that depends on the number of poison and quality. You can take Poison Dealer and cut the price by half (that’s always good) and/or Improvised Materials. Now Improvised Material is kind of funky imho considering how crafting works… Since there’s a +5 on the Craft DC it will also be multiplied by the result of the craft roll…So if we take my high drik poison example instead of crafting 750Cp per day you’ll craft 900 Cp per day….You improvised materials….but you make MORE poison? WTF!?!

Also, unless every bard arriving at level 4 takes up Imporvised Materials or Poison Dealer, the money he will invest in making poisons will put him way back on the scale in terms of magical equipement. So if it in the creator’s mind it is dumb not to take those class features why give a choice in the first place? (It’s a test: will you or will you not “break” your class by choosing your class feature…./suspense).

*awesome document btw! many praises to the authors!

As for the Poisonmaster PrC….well that one really puzzles me.

What is the purpose of this PrC? If bards are not masters of poisons what are they? Rogues with less skills and no sneak attacks? Characters that come from another class combinaison who take poisonmaster are what? Wannabe bards? Assassins that want to be better at poisons than….. bards? The concept is quite confusing…

Ok think the walls of text are a bit too much… let’s keep it simple:

The problem I see with the current version of bards is it will take them a lot of time (days) to craft poisons doses (and sometimes copious amounts of money) to be able to use a class feature. When you compare spellcasters who have fresh spells everyday you’ll begining to understand my point of view…

Why do I consider poisons to be a class feature of bards? Because it’s the focus of many bard abilities, feats, PrC, etc. Athasians Bards without poisons are like rogues without sneak attacks and disarm trap skills…basically skilled NPC classes like Experts or Aristocrats.

Well, a spellcaster only, well, cast spells. A bard is not only the poison guy, he’s also a lot of other things at the same time. If you want to be good at poisons, and still keep being good at several other things (bardic knowledge, music, loads of skill points), then I really think the poisonmaster prc is the one for you (I’ll try to not be too defensive since most of the bard “fixes” were done by me).
From the core bard you have:
Improvised Materials: You can craft poisons from raw materials at hand instead of relying on specific ingredients. Doing so increases the Craft (poisonmaking) check DC by 5 but otherwise has no effect on the poisonʹs potency.
Poison Dealer: Pay one‐half of the market price for raw materials needed to craft poisons.
From the poisonmaster prc:
Dosage (Ex): Poisonmasters know the exact amount of poison needed for an application, making sure no
excessive poison is used. Each dose of poison created by you can be applied twice.
Metapoison: You can extend, empower, maximize and quicken your poisons (which now can be used twice and without expending 0 Cp on materials)
From Athasian Emporium:
Poison Miser: Your dose that could be used twice now can be used in two weapons (4 poisons for the price/time of one).
Poison Longevity: Your dose now can affect 8 targets!

Not to mention that you could always make your character stack up his doses offstage (your character doesn’t adventure 24×7, right?)