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Sleight of hand instead of bluff?

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Avatar irdeggman 3 posts

I wasn’t part of the discussion way back when, when it was determined to use bluff to disguise spellcasting.
This ability (skill use) is something necessary and an inherent part of DS.
But was any thought given to the fact that “after’ the DS3 project went with the bluff route that WotC came out with an offical ruling on how to do it?
The Rules Compendium specifies using Sleight of Hand versus Spot check as the “official” method.
Was the topic revisited when the official rule came out?
In a logic sense it actually makes more sense then does bluff. Bluff by it’s very nature and skill design is an interaction skill that works on a single target (feinting) or those being interacted with.
From the SRD
“A bluff requires interaction between you and the target. Creatures unaware of you cannot be bluffed.”
And under sleight of hand
“When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.”
the DS7 rules are
“When casting a spell, a spellcaster may attempt to conceal verbal and somatic components by making a Bluff check as a move action, to distract any witnesses. Onlookers may oppose the roll with a Sense Motive or Spellcraft check.”
Which is essentially an extended feint action. But why allow a spellcraft check if the point was to get the observer to look somewhere else and not to disguise the action itself?
If the point is to disguise the action then sleight of hand makes more sense and if allowing spellcraft to be used then it makes even more sense.
Oh by the way great job and great product. It looks like our group is finally going to start back up a DS game, which is why I hadn’t been paying attention to the DS project for quite a while.

 
Avatar rpgagmjay 49 posts

I think the DS 7 ruling comes more from the fluff that when an arcane caster wants to “cover-up” the casting of a spell, he doesn’t hide the verbal, somatic and material components as much as he makes them seem like a psionic power.
I would think the “slight of hand” ruling would have more to do with hiding the act of spellcasting, so that the magic would appear out of nowhere.
My personal preference, stick with the DS7 rules. Is anyone surprised that they seem to be better thought out than WotC? Not I!
Good Gaming!
-Jason

 
Avatar irdeggman 3 posts

Actually they aren’t in this case.
Using spellcraft as an opposed check for bBluff – that per the DS7 rules is designed to distract.
The original 2nd ed rules about disguising spellcasting was indeed supposed to make it look like it was psionic instead of magic.
But the DS3 rules (well the text) doesn’t quite reflect that.
Also Sleight of Hand is the skill that is used to plant objects as well as to hide movement. So it is actually what you would use to make it seem like you are doing something else.
I will end up using whatever my DM says we use – but my question was did the topic get revisited when the “Official” WotC rules came out.
I know that the DS team was the firts to come up with a mechanic for this (the bluff rule) but when WotC came up with theirs did the topic get revisited or was the idea that it was already decided what to do.
The logic in revisiting was akin to revisiting everything when 3.5 came out since it “changed” rules from 3.0.

 
Avatar Jon // Oracle 228 posts

We discussed it, but it was decided to keep Bluff. There are arguments in favor of using either of them. Sleight of Hand can be used to conceal spell components on your body, but it also takes a wizard very close to a core skill of the rogue. Bluff is more applicable when dealing with templars and other wizard haters.

 
Avatar irdeggman 3 posts

Yeah but Bluff is an “interaction” skill and that makes things different.
Using Bluff on someone across the courtyard from you seems wrong to me while sleight of hand is a better skill for “making something seem like something else” and would work better at a distance while bluff should work better up close.
5 ranks in bluff also gives you a bonus on Diplomacy (which is really really significant in a setting like DS – since it works for trading), Intimidate, Sleight of Hand and Disguise checks.
Sleight of Hand pretty much translates into the Pick Pocket skill – but the DC is pretty hefty. DC 20 and an opposed Spot check to succeed.
Perhaps a skill trick might have been a cleaner mechanic to use. Give Wizards Sleight of Hand as class skill and require buying a skill check to gain the ability to use the skill to disguise spell casting.
While wizards could still pick pocket (like a rogue) – {although in 3.5 how many rogues still use that skill as much as thieves did in 2nd ed?}
I don’t know to me it just seems wrong to create a different system than the RAW has for doing the same thing. And then throwing in Spellcraft as an opposed skill when the point of the Bluff is to “distract” the target doesn’t make sense to me. I could see a circumstance bonuse for 5 ranks in Spellcraft applying though – but not a straight Spellcraft check. Mechanically it doesn’t seem sound to me.

 
Avatar Jaborwak 6 posts

In this case, I do not think it would be someone using bluff from across a courtyard, but rather somebody using spellcraft from across the courtyard.

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