Hello,
I was just reading through the DS 3.5E rules and also through the Expanded Psionics Handbook and I noticed that the Thri-kreen racial entries were somewhat similar but in the EPH the thrikreen starts as a 2HD creature with +2 level adjustment whereas in DS rules it starts as a 2HD creature with only +1 level adjustment.
I think that this is good as it allows parties to start at 3rd level (4th level just seems a bit too advanced for a party to start) but I’m wondering if anybody knows what the reasoning was behind decreasing the level adjustment?
(Also, has there been any suggestions about which racial abilities to tone down if we’re trying to make thri-kreens more on par with other races?)

The kreen in the Expanded Psionics Handbook gets psionic powers, while the DS3 kreen doesn’t. That’s the reason for the lower LA. As for lowering their LA even further, there was a thread over at the WotC boards with a racial class for the kreen (essentially breaking their ECL 3 down into three levels of a “racial class”.) That way a kreen could start at ECL 1, representing an “immature” version of the species or whatever, and gain more racial abilities with each level-up. I can’t remember who did it, but you might want to have a search there for it – it was pretty cool.

Awesome! Thanks!

Here’s Gabriel Cormier’s version:
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Races/Thrik…

I was the one who posted on the old WotC boards… I don’t know if those posts are still there, but here is a link to the file in MS Word format:
http://thepit.shacknet.nu/Racial_Class_Thri_Kre…

We now have a kreen with LA only in DS 3.5 Core Rules. Get it from the athas.org site.

what was the reason that r7 dropped the monster hit dice and went for LA+2 for both Thri-Kreen and Half-Giant

Level adjustments + racial hit dice penalise spellcaser and psionics types to much. You can have a lvl 4 Psions or level 1 kreen Kreen psion. Losing three caster levels is a savage hit. Warrior types don’ care as much as the racial hit dice still give out BAB, good will saves and hit points.
Might be a different reason and apologies if I’m wrong/jumped in.

The removal of racial hit dice and the increase in level adjustment, however, is particularly a problem for half-giants and kreen who want to follow a warrior’s path (which is most – if not all – half-giants and a good proportion of kreen). The new versions will now have considerably less hit points than a human of the same ECL. If I recall the number-crunching I did on this correctly, it would take a half-giant figher until level 6 to catch up with a human due to their higher Con score. This seems to me to be an excessive penalty for the half-giant to bear. They have gone from being the big, tough, bruiser to being a glass cannon – still does lots of damage but goes down real easy. This damages their classic niche in the game.
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Like a couple of other posters, my players have refused to play the new versions of the half-giant and kreen and we have gone back to the much more satisfying r6 versions. I have tried r7 half-giants and kreen out as NPCs and they just don’t have the staying power, I’m afraid.

Most races with LA suck due to lack of hit points. The only ones I liked in 3.5 (ie woudl actually play) are Goliath and maybe half vampire which has an LA of+2. The race is question more or less has to be a bruiser and have a strength bonus of +2 for eeach LA and a con bonus as well. The Mul in r6 wasn’t to bad.
4th ed solved the problem by making the high LA races alot weaker.

hey, as an experienced DM (not perfect), I will tend to ignore rules that damage the over-all race. if nothing else, discuss it your your present DM and try to come to an understanding. who knows, I still use some rules or descriptions from 2nd edition in 3rd cause they work better. thri-kreen, tohr-kreen, and half-giants are all races that are fun to play.

Though I would be inclined to agree with most of the above comments (which are negative towards the new r7 race changes) I took a moment to break down the differences.
I’m making comparisons based on a 3rd level character. (IMO LA beats racial HD in higher levels anyway)
Half-Giants: Sure, we lose 2HD (which are d8s)... but when compared to getting a 1st level hit die in a combat class, it’s a minor difference. Max hit points at first level mean those two hit dice average at 12.5 hp, which is comparable to the Half Giant’s preferred class, barbarian. Of course, you lose those extra CON hps(from the second HD), but you also gain the 1st level class abilities. Of course, casters and manifesters prefer the LA version rather than the racial HD version, no question.
Thri-kreen: Nearly identical arguement, but without a serious CON hp to tip the scales.
Over-all view: Though I’ve been a stickler in the past to keeping racial HD when my PCs play monster characters, I’m a fan of the r7 changes. DS 3.5 seems to focus on the free choices one has, to play any race with any class, and as such these LA races provided a better experience regardless of the class chosen. When the numbers are worked, I don’t believe the theories of ‘glass giants’ stand scrutiny.
Just my 2 ceramics… baked ceramics.
-Jason

Well, the issue is not half-giants as viewed in isolation. The issue is how they compare to other player races, specifically how they fill their perceived “bruiser” niche in the game.
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A half-giant with a level of fighter (to use one example) at ECL 3 compares extremely poorly to an ECL 3 human fighter, due entirely to their LA+2. Assuming a 25-point buy that gives the half-giant and the human the same base stats, the human will have 9 more hit points than the half-giant. At low levels, that’s a notable amount. And, all else being equal, the half-giant will need to reach ECL 8 before he overtakes the human!
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This kind of comparison is important because these are the conditions under which a half-giant will most likely see play: in a party with characters of the same ECL. You can’t examine the half-giant in isolation. I know that if my half-giant fighter was being regularly out-lasted by my little human buddy, I’d be pretty fed up. Especially after six or seven levels of this!
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The half-giant with racial hit dice, by the way, is never more than 2 hp behind his human buddy of the same ECL, and catches up much sooner. I can post all the figures for these comparisons, by the way, if anyone really cares to see them.
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The same problem exists for the kreen, but like rpgamjay says, it is far less pronounced due to the kreen’s lower stat mods. And kreen can fill other niches less reliant on hit points, for example. Although their poison DC is lower now (the base DC of 11 given in r7 is an error), as is any other later stat or mod that is derived from Hit Dice – such as psi-like abilities, wild talents etc.
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Anyway, this brings me back to my initial question, which is namely: why were the racial hit dice removed? It is easier to understand for kreen, but for half-giants it is rather baffling. I am looking for some suggestions from the designers specifically regarding how the r7 half
giant is an improvement over the one in r6. I’m open-minded about this, but am having trouble seeing some of the rationales behind the change :-)

In all cases of 3.0 and 3.5 ‘above’ standard power races the use of ECL is better than the use of HD and ECL where in turn the use of HD is a smaller ‘penalty’ than just the ECL. The Half Giant having fewer HP than a human 2 levels higher should not be the point, the question should be does a Half Giant start at 1st level or 3rd level (and require more xp to advance) as a question you need to ask your local DM. More often than not I find DM’s willing to keep the ECL (for the purpose of advancement) and start one PC at a higher XP total than the others.
Another option is to use the staggered ECL ideas presented in savage species such that the Half Giant starts at 1st level, then gets 1 ECL, then 2 more levels, then the second ECL. So the human levels 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 the Giant levels as 1,1,2,3,4,4,5. Any of these solutions are FAR more effective than complaining about the fact that your special race doesn’t become awesome until 8th level when in point of fact you have had a 22 strength or more all along.

Getting your DM to fix things is all well and good, but for the purposes of an official athas.org release, it would be poor design to handwave away any problems with the race by just foisting the decision on the DM. The DM should be the final arbiter in his own game, but the core rules should also try to avoid any such problems. An official release should work as closely as possible with the RAW. Individual DMs can and should change things afterwards, but a solid set of core rules that requires a minimum of tweaking is essential. By the RAW, for example, both a half-giant and a human will start at the same ECL. Breaking it down into Savage Species-style “monster classes” is another option, but the half-giant is still going to lag behind for the same amount of ECLs.
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At the end of the day, the r7 half-giant is weaker than the r6 half-giant. Were there playtest reports that suggested that the r6 half-giant was overpowered? We certainly have not found that to be the case. Again, can we get some insight into these decisions from the design team please?

A point of conflict: the supposed “bruiser” arguement.
What exactly is a bruiser? In my opinion the DS fluff (including novels and the like) have always described Half Giants as unbearably strong (one hit = death) but not nessecarily unbeatable. This is not to say that they are ‘glass giants’ but I think the role of a bruiser is just that: a giant damage melee machine.
Having a decent CON and hps to spare would better fit the role of a “tank”, someone who can soak damage and keep on rolling. In traditional D&D the dwarves best fit this role, while DS has the Mul as well.
Since we’re talking about ‘fairness’ for Core Rules let’s take Kamelion’s fighter, who has 9 more hp than the Half Giant, and compare. The Half Giant’s Strength give it a +4 to hit and damage on top of what the fighter can pull. Now add on the extra damage from using a large size weapon and it becomes apparent that the Giant can easily hold his own and those 9 hps disappear pretty quick.
The question is with the old rules and the new rules, how does a Half Giant compare to a generic human version? Every advantage should have a disadvantage to equal things out a bit. I’d still play a Half Giant with the r7 rules.
-Jason

For those concerned with the half- giants and thri-kreen, there are monster templates at the end of the complete psionic handbook. Pages 149 and 150 that are well written and helpful. Same for the Githyanki and Githzerai.

I like the idea of using optional racial levels like in Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved. All the races execpt humans got 3 racial levels that they could choose at any point in their career in place of a class level when they leveled up. Anybody experimented with that?