Defiling
In Amber Enchantress, it was definitely a choice Sadira made. The tough part is that “balance” that happens in RPGs. I think the trick is to keep it simple.
The base is a minor action to gather energy.
Heroic spells do burst 1 defilement. Paragon spells do burst 2. Epic do burst 3. Any additional spells in that area increase the burst by one. After a burst is size 6, it takes a move action to gather the energy needed due to all of the dead land that wants to absorb the energy. At burst 10, it takes a standard action to gather the energy needed for a spell. (This could be modified by terrain type but then I don’t know how simple it stays.)
Basic defiling gives the CON or WIS bonus to damage for the spell, whichever is higher. It’s a matter of how much they can handle, physically or mentally.
For each additional action spent gathering energy, of whatever type is needed based on how much area is defiled around them, allows the addition of an extra die of damage as well as the bonus above. Gives a “high” feeling and temp hit points (INT or WIS mod) but costs a healing surge as the energy goes through the character. Instead of an extra die of damage, for the cost of two minor actions, the base damage die increases by one step.
Defiling is the only way to grab the energy quick enough to power a spell in combat more effectively. A preserver could do it but it would take a standard action for each extra energy they grab, which isn’t useful in combat, but it could be done.
Then, to continue with my ideas, preservers have an easier time controlling energy because of how they grabbed it. I would remove the minor action to sustain any spells they have going, or reduce it by one action type.
That would allow defiling to be powerful for one shot, damage spells and preserving better for long term spells. In 4E terms, this makes defilers good strikers and preservers good controllers.
Dragon magic, or energy channeled through obsidian prepared in the proper way, drains one, two or three healing surges based on the tier of spell being used to those in the burst including the caster. Further, as it’s defiling magic, this energy can be used to increase damage as above.
A character can hold magic for a spell equal to a number of minutes for preserving or rounds for defiling equal to WIS or CON ability score modifier, whichever is higher. If not used before then, the preserver loses the magic as it dissipates back to the environment. The defiler loses a healing surge as the energy rips out of him as he can’t hold it anymore.
Finally, preserving magic can be used to heal a character. (Mainly because this happened in the books.) A preserver can spend an encounter ability to let the character spend a healing surge or a daily to give the character back hit points as if a healing surge was used but it comes from the magic, not the person healed.
For rituals, it’s a bit more difficult and I don’t have good ideas. The best thing I was thinking is that preserving is as normal while defiling reduces casting time? The thought is that the time of a ritual is mostly used in getting the magic in such as way so they don’t defile the ground. Rituals seem to be their own bonus and penalty, because they take so long to cast and cost money. Defiling or preserving doesn’t seem to come into it.
Just some ideas. My big goal was to make it a choice, as I read with Sadira, and this doesn’t mean that their aren’t feats to help preserve or defile that a character can take.
edg

Pulling energy for a spell (did you mean that litterarly, or just defiling? the latter would be a lot better) cannot be made to become a standard action. It would emply you can’t cast on your turn and would need to wait on your next. In that time any other class would act twice.
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Damage bonus based on ability mod + additional die is too much. Additional die alone sounds good, and matches one of the weapon properties (except that one adds the extra die on crits alone).
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For this to be a minor gain, the temp hps would have to last until the beginning of your next turn, basically be useful to absorb damage done between one casting and the next. No need to make it cost a healing surge. The warlock or the tiefling has an ability that can confer temporary hps potentially on every round. This would be similar.
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The idea of gaining a benefit from preserving cannot be given to everyone, as that would make every wizard better, litteraly. What could be done is say you gain defiling points, and just like something bad happens if you have enough of them, something good happens if you have none: you can sustain spells more easily as the energies of that spell are less tumultuous.
Consider that most wizards will be like Sadira was before she became a sun wizard; they are mostly preservers, and defile when they need to save their lives and damn the consequences. So most wizards have a few defiling points.
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Holding on to energy for mere rounds has virtually no combat applications, no matter the edition you play in.
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What part of the novels describes healing through dishing out unused spell energy?

I think the system you propose is good, although many of the features you describe are feats, not inherent to the defiling act.
The Defiling radius effect is good, the time/action type it takes to draw energy needs to be Free 1-4 and Minor 5-8, Move 8-12, Standard 13-16, Full turn+move 17-20, Turn+standard 21-24, Two Turns 25-29, +1 more turn per 4 radius.
Preserving is instead a minor action on undefined land, but if anywhere on the battlefield has been defiled it jumps up to a move action. These actions are a sort of ‘investment’ as the caster need not spend actions to maintain already cast spells.
Beyond that feats should be involved.
One feat option grants the Defilers a second attribute to damage could be done by adding 1 to the defiling radius per casting (thus 2 if a radius already exists), it would however have to be the LOWER of Wis and Con.
A second feat requiring the first lets the caster continue to defile, using an additional action (of the radius appropriate type) to defile another 2 radius and gain a bonus D6 on damage for the spell in the initial casting, although not if the spell is sustained into later rounds.
A third feat requiring none of the others could be the Temp HP from drawing energy for an extra draw action and 1 radius defiling the casting of any spell gives you 1/2 your level + lower of con or wis mod temp hp, no additional cost.

See, the problem for me is this. Defilling is supposed to be a choice. There is supposed to be a certain innate things that defiling can do on it’s own. Maybe I did go too far but it should always be there as a choice. Further, being attacked by a defiler should scare the characters about what she can do.

Hendell: Maybe the base idea that defiling causes extra damage equal to CON or WIS and they can defile for an extra d6 damage for one more minor action. Perhaps it does Necrotic damage as well? Or that’s an option? Then, anything else above that needs to be feats. The idea being that the character has studied and improved her ability to defile and the benefits she receives from it. I was trying to mimic the books, which is why I start as a minor action to defile, as that seems to fit the descriptions for Sadira casting. While I personally don’t mind your radii and the effects, I was trying to keep the basic idea simple.

Penn: Yes, I intentionally made it such that it could go to the next round before a character gained enough energy. In Amber Enchantress, there were several times when it seemed as if Sadira had to spend a full round and a bit more gathering the energy she needed. The temp hit points last until the characters do a short rest, not just to end of the next turn. At least, that’s how I saw them. I don’t like the idea of Defiler points as it’s something else to track. Further, to the Veiled Alliance, it’s black and white. You are one or you aren’t and that’s it. So, I don’t know what the gain is to have points to track. I had the idea for holding energy because, again, Sadira found several places that absorbed energy and she had to hold onto magic for a while before she could cast it. Finally, again in AE, Sadira healed Magnus using magical energy she had absorbed.

edg

I have been considering various versions of defiling functionality vs 4E idology, and I think I have come to one that I am happy with. The key feature is that it does not break the power balance ideology of 4E, but it does offer interesting options to a Defiler. This section takes the form of feats, a chart, and a magic item. I am considering a paragon path but that is somewhat more complex so it will be after some discussion or later by any rate.
Defiling comes with a cost and a benefit, each effect is based on the use of the defiling chart.
Feats
Defiling Magic. [Defiled], Heroic, Prerequisite Arcane power source.
When casting any arcane spell the caster can chose to cast it as a Defiled spell by defiling the land in order to draw extra power for the spell. This creates a zone of defiled land drained of all life in a close burst 1. When used within a zone of defiled land the zone’s radius increases by 1 per use. The time it takes to use this feat depends on the size of the zone already in existence as per the defiling chart.
Any Defiled spell adds a +2 bonus to hit (+4 at paragon, +6 at epic) to any attack rolls
Renewable Magic [Defiled] Heroic, Prerequisite Defiling Magic.
This feat allows the Defiler to recharge one encounter attack or utility spell that has already been used as a Defiled spell by creating or enlarging a zone of defiled land. If used within an existing zone the result is a new zone one size category higher on the chart than the existing one. The time and healing surge cost required is determined by the actual size of the new zone.
Never Ending Magic [Defiled] Paragon, Prerequisite, Renewable Magic
This feat allows the Defiler to recharge one daily attack or utility spell that has already been used as a Defiled spell by creating or enlarging a zone of defiled land with a radius one step higher on the Defiling chart and is cumulative in uses per day with Renewable Magic. If used within an existing zone the result is a new zone one size category higher on the chart than the existing one. The time and healing surge cost required is determined by the actual size of the new zone.
Obsidian Focus [Defiled] Epic, Prerequisite, Never Ending Magic
This feat allows the Defiler to use an Obsidian Focus to draw energy out of animals instead of defiling plant life to recharge spells as Defiled spells. The total number of healing surges that are needed to recharge a power is 1, Paragon 2, and Epic 3. Any Daily spell requires 1 more. You may also cast a non defiled spell as a defiling spell by spending a healing surge as a free action during the casting.
Make an attack roll vs Fortitude, any creature within the radius hit by the roll loses 1 healing surge starting with the nearest to the caster and ending when the last surge needed is taken. If sufficient power is not drawn within the radius limited by the Obsidian Focus the defiling attempt is wasted.
Defiling chart
Recharge per day…Radius of effect…Time to Draw…Surge cost
......0…...................under 2…...................Free….....................0
......1…..........................2…....................Minor….....................0
......2…..........................5…....................Minor….....................0
......3….........................10…...................Move….....................0
......4….........................20…...................Move….....................0
......5….........................50…...................Move….....................0
......6….........................100…................Standard….................0
......7….........................200…................Standard….................0
......8….........................500…................Standard….................0
......9…........................1000…..............Full Round…................1
.....10….......................2000…..............Full Round…................1
.....11….......................5000…..............Full Round…................1
.....12…......................10000….............One Minute…...............2
.....13…......................20000….............One Minute…...............2
.....14…......................50000….............Two Minutes….............3
.....15….....................100000…............Five Minutes…..............3
Obsidian Focus…...........................................Level 18+
This obsidian sphere allows a sufficiently powerful defiler
to draw energy from animals as well as plants.
Lvl 18 +4 85,000 gp
Lvl 23 +5 425,000 gp
Lvl 28 +6 2,125,000 gp
Implement (Orb)
Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 damage per plus
Property: Able to Defile animals out to a of 20 at +4,
50 at +5 and 100 at +6
Power (Daily ✦ Healing): Free Action. Use this power
when you score a critical hit with this orb. Drain one
healing surge from the target and add it to your total.
If you are already at your maximum number of healing
surges, you instead regain hit points equal to your healing
surge value

hendell: I like what you have but for me I would make an important change. Those are all choices at any time not feats that have to be taken. Although I am not sure I completely understand the chart. Can you elaborate on it?

The problem seems to be that, like many of the 2E class books, a lot of defiling is about the role playing and NPC reactions to it. That’s hard to balance out at any point. But, yes, for me these temptations should be available all of the time. I think that is part of the flavor of DS. It is incredibly easy to be evil and gain power. Further, it’s the ruthless ones that go far, not the nice ones. At least, that’s how I took it.

Thanks!

edg

So the current DS4 system set up for defiling involves a simple re-roll for daily spells at the expense of surges of nearby PCs. Honestly, this feels more like preserving than defling to me… I suspect DS4 will continue to keep it simple.

There is some good inputs to the thread below. Lots of proposed game mechanic benefits for defiling – there should be. I personally feel that arcane casters should be powerful like jedi but also hated. But here is my main question to the group:

What is the cost of defiling or the use of arcane magic in your game? Are you hated by the general population because you cast arcane magic without drawing upon the power of the evil sorcerer king? Are you hunted down by the Veiled Alliance because you are a defiler?

I’m mostly curious how DMs plan to handle defiling/preserving magic from an RP perspective in their games. Clearly arcane magic cannot be a common thing – it’s anything but common in the books.

My defiling system will look like this, I think:

Defiling is supposed to be a power boost. It is the sexy side of the Force, to use the Star Wars analogy, and it needs to be sexy. As it is right now, meh. Not so sexy. Giving me a tiny chance to do a bit more damage or to hit? That’s hardly enough temptation. However, I’d lay one more level on to that: since it’s only used with Daily Powers and most Daily Powers have three power iterations (i.e., 1st level, 11th level and 21st level), defiling allows you to use one level higher of the power iteration and increases your area of affect (depending on the power).

In this sense, there is still a sense of lure—and also that lure will work in situations of desperation. On top of the re-roll chance, you know that you get to roll extra damage against this powerful enemy that fills you with a sense of dread. Your party is dying and you are the only thing that stands between your own extinction and continued existence. Do you defile and hurt your own party for a chance re-roll? Uh, haha. No. But would you defile if it meant that you’d cast a much more powerful spell that could completely turn the tide of the battle? Hell yes.

So yeah, that’s my thing. A minor tweak that will make defiling slightly unbalancing and very appealing.

Then, however, I will also institute an addiction and penalty process. It becomes more difficult to preserve after a while, you start to get a “stench” of evil, you take charisma penalties and so forth. Good fun. :)

Yeah, the 4E system seems almost too simple.
There is really no penalty for defiling…

During an encounter, that wasn’t in a city, there is not a reason NOT to defile…
Of course that is just for the mechanics side of things.

For RP, there could possibly be many consequences.

In reading the rules in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide, it is not that at all. I’m no expert at 4e – I have only read the D&D 4th Edition for Dummies book, but I do have the Campaign guide.

1. Using any Arcane power you can “Choose” to defile and destroy plant life within 1 square of you.

2. Any Arcane Attack Power, again you can “Choose” to damage plant life which extends out to 1/2 the level of power your using.

3. Arcane Defiling Power. This is a choice which occurs as a trigger to any Attack or Damage role that is part of Arcane Daily Attack Power. You get to re-roll th attack or damage but have to use the 2nd result. The result is Each Ally (willing or unwilling) within 20 squares takes damage equal to 1/2 their healing surge.

I initially thought that this had to be a typo or errata or something. Why is that each Ally gets damage. I would figure each person/creature, etc. takes damage within 20 squares and all plant life dies. They describe it later on the same page by saying, “Creatures with whom a defiler shares a mental or an emotional connection, such as allies or slaves, are wracked with pain as a defiler draws power.” (page 80) I get the idea of “Hey wait a second I only did 2 damage on my roll agains the giant here. I’ll just defile and roll again – causing pain and damage all my allies! Hoody Hoo.” Well I suppose fluff-wise a Templar hanging out with a bunch of slaves around him to do that might work. So yeah, I guess it boils down to using the “Arcane Defiling” power so you can get a re-roll. You ‘defile’ your allies so you can get a re-roll for ‘to hit’ or damage causing them direct damage at 1/2 their surge. The plant life destruction is built in there for any Arcane power at one space and but the real eco-destroyers are the Daily Arcane Attack Powers, which destory out to a number of spaces 1/2 the level of the power. But the fact remains is that it is still a choice to kill the plant life, it is not automatic – at least that is how I read it.

How would I house rule it? Well, the fundmental problem here is the choice in preserving and defiling. You simply have a choice to defile or not. Well, heck as a PC I have no incentive to defile really. A simple Re-roll or to choose to kill plant life in a certain radius? Not enough. Here is my take

1. I’d rule that if your using any Arcane power, you have two options – kill plant life and damage friend & foe for 1/2 their healing surge (round up) in damage in a 1 square radius around(Defile). If you Preserve, well as a benefit, the plant life after your done casting looks better and one of your healing surge can be given to someone within a 1 square radius of you.

2. Daily Arcane Attack Powers. For the most part Keep it as is – plant life dies in a radius of 1/2 the level (round up) of the Arcane Power. But add in that you damage everyone within that same radius 1/2 their healing surge value (Defile). If you choose to preserve, then you loose a Healing Surge. I think this is a pretty good balance a Healing Surge for a Daily Attack Power use.

3. Arcane Defiling Power. I would just add that Everyone in a 20 Square radius takes damage of 1/2 (round up) their healing surge value (ally and enemy), all plant life within that radius dies.

Here would be an example, say our 1st level Templar (Wizard – 22 HP) with his compainon 1st Level Gladiator (Arena Fighter – 29 HP), 1st Level Elemental Priest (Cleric – 26 HP) and a 1st Level Athasian Ministrel (Rogue – 24 HP) are wandering around the city Gulg. The Templar is from another city-state (Urik) and working undercover so to speak. Well, while traveling near a grove of trees at night in a market area a group of drunk half-giants (3 of them) decide that they don’t like the song the Athansian Ministrel is playing so they attack. Creatures around the area back off as the fight ensues. After a round or so The Templar decides he needs to use his daily Arcane Power “Sleep” in order to resolve this and get out of the area quickly.

In the “Official” D&D 4e rules, The Templar would decide whether or not to defile. If choose not to. No one would know, there is just no effect – either good or bad. He simply casts sleep and says he’s presevering. So Roll the d20 +3 versus Will.

In my “house” rules. The Templar would have to decide if its worth loosing a healing surge to cast sleep. As the Templar values his own hide over, he decides to defile instead of preserve. Since Sleep is a Wizard Attack 1, he damages an area around him for 1/2 the level ( I would round up). Unfortuately his buddy the Elemental priest was next to him, so the Priest gets hit for 3 points of damage (1/2 his healing surge value). As the Templar is near the grove, a tree he is under just withers and dies, with rotten fruit falling to the ground.

Ok, but let’s keep going. Lets say the Half-giants, all make their saves. They are slowed, but clearly will be in reach of the Templar himself in the next turn. (The Gladiator isn’t doing to well with a series of critical faliures and the Ministral is only holding his own). So the Templar decides he needs that crazy re-rolll and declares he is now “Arcane Defiling” He gets the Re-roll and the half-giants all fall asleep – Hooray! But there is more. In a 20 square radius every plant dies – so the whole grove of trees withers and dies. The market carts of fresh produce rot, people that had been watching the fight all take damage. The giants slump to the ground and then moan as wounds appear on them. The Templar’s buddies get hurt too – the Minstrial for 3 Damage, the Gladiator for 4 damage and the Priest for 3. People are screaming in pain, perhaps a child is near death now from the defiling, and mini-riot is about to ensue. Time for a tactical retrograde.

In the “Official” 4e rules the result would be the Templar still decides whether or not to kill plant life and in this case with “Sleep” he would only have a radius of 1 square out from him. Since he decided not to, nothing happens to the plant life. But since he needs the re-roll, he uses the Arcane Defiling Power. The giants fall fast asleep on the re-roll. Only his allies get damage so the Ministral gets 3 damage, the Gladiator 4 damage and the Priest 3 damage. Yet the Templar still does not have to kill plant life. In this case, his buddies say “ouch” and the Half-giants slump to the ground. The people in the market area, observe but aren’t that impressed and carry on. The party runs into the grove of trees and out the backside into the night.

Again, I haven’t played 4e, just read some of the stuff, but I think flavor wise there needs to be a bit more cost involved in defiling than the “Official” rules present.