1. Elf
2. Mul
3. Thri-Kreen
4. Half-Giant
5. Human
6. Dwarf
7. Halfling
8. Half-Elf

Half-Giant (Cost: 2 racial feat as one for Large, one for +4 Str)
Average Height: 10’ – 12’
Ability Scores: +4 Str, +2Con
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skills Bonuses: + 2 Intimidate, + 2 Endurance
Giant Size: Since you large size, large weapon equip as one-hand but all non-magical equipment is double cost for you. Your normal Reach is 2.
Giant Heritage: Your Healing surge value is equal to 1/4 you max HP + your Constitution modifier.
Half-Giant Resolve: You can use Half-Giant Resolve as an encounter power.
Half-Giant Resolve Half-Giant Racial Power
You might be bloodied, but the battle is far from over!
Encounter
Minor Action Personal
Special: You must be bloodied to use this power.
Effect: You gain a number of temporary hit points equal to 3 + one-half your level.
__
Pterran
Ability Scores: + 2 Str, + 2 Cha
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Pterran, Common
Skill Bonuses: + 2 Diplomacy, + 2 Acrobatics
Life Paths: Choose one of the 3 power as your Pterran Life Path benefit.
Hobgoblin Resilience Hobgoblin Racial Power
The Mind Path: Use Iron Mind Githzerai Racial Power
The Nature Path: Encounter. Minor Action. Ignore difficult terrain until the end of your turn.
The Warrior Path: Use Predatory Eye Bugbear Racial Power
__
Elf, Athasian
Average Height: 6’ 6’’ – 7’ 6’‘
Average Weight: 130–180 lb.
Ability Scores: + 2 Dexterity, + 2 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: + 2 Arcana, + 2 Bluff
Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the longsword & longbow
Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Perception
checks.
Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares).
Elven Accuracy: You can use elven accuracy as an encounter power.
____
Thri-Kreen (Cost: 1 racial feat)
Average Height: 7’; 10’ to 11’ Long
Ability Scores: + 2 Dex, + 2Wis
Size: Medium
Speed: 8 squares
Vision: Darkvision
Languages: Thri-Kreen, Common
Skills Bonuses: + 2 Nature, + 2 Athletics
Insect Body: Thri-Kreen usually need magical items resizing if objects are taken from humanoid.
Trance: Rather than sleep, thri-kreen enter a meditative state known as trance. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While in a trance, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
Thri-Kreen Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the Gythka and Chatkcha.
4-Handed: You have 4 hands to carry or manipulate stuff. You can only benefit from one bonus between a two-handed weapon or the shield in combat.
Venomous Saliva: You can use Venomous Saliva as an Encounter power.
Venomous Saliva: Thri-Kreen Racial Power
You bite an opponent and your venom cause paralysis.
Encounter (special)
Standard Action Melee 1
Attack: Con vs. Fortitude
Increase damage to + 2 at 11th level, + 4 at 21st level.
Hit: 1d4 + Con modifier damage, victim become immobilized (save ends).
Increase to 3d4 + Con at 11th level, 5d4 + Con at 21st level.
Special: Cannot use more venomous saliva than Con modifier per day.n
_____
Mul
Ability Scores: + 2 Str, + 2 Con
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Lowlight
Languages: Common, any one
Skill Bonuses: + 2 Endurance, + 2 Athletics
Rest: You only need 4 hours to benefit from an extended rest.
Dual Heritage: You can take feats that have either dwarf or human as a prerequisite (as well as those specifically for muls), as long as you meet any other requirements.
Mul Resilience: You can use Mul resilience as an encounter power.
Mul Resilience [Mul Racial Power]
You shake off an effect that would cripple a lesser warrior.
Encounter
Immediate Reaction Personal
Trigger: You suffer an effect that a save can end
Effect: You make a saving throw against the effect.

having a race require a cost is not necessary and is against what 4th was trying to do with character creation rules. I for one thought the build we were discusing on the half gains form was very good, balanced and not in need of a cost.

What does this mean? : “Half-Giant (Cost: 2 racial feat as one for Large, one for +4 Str)”

Venomous Saliva: Thri-Kreen Racial Power
You bite an opponent and your venom cause paralysis.
Encounter (special)
Standard Action Melee 1
Attack: Con vs. Fortitude
Increase damage to + 2 at 11th level, + 4 at 21st level.
Hit: 1d4 + Con modifier damage, victim become immobilized (save ends).

I think we should reconsider our ‘stronger’ races idea. This feat cost and or extra features idea is VERY 3rd edition. Why don’t we just make all the ‘base’ races the same power level (2 attributes at +2 and some special features) and just make a list of ‘racial feats’ that apply to the race, Giant only “Reach” feat, Thri-Kreen only “Multi weapon” feat, perhaps even a +2 str feat for giants, and or a +2 con feat. I realize the +2 attribute bonus is a little stronger (although not much) than the normal feats, but these are racial components as much as feats and as they are limited in versatility the power balance of them is controlled by the thematic limitations of the race.
Another idea for balance would be to reimplementing the negative attributes, making Half Giant +4 STR +4 CON -2 INT -2 WIS and calling it a day, both Ideas could be made to work together, possibly even having the feats in addition to the higher attributes, although I would strongly advise the +2 str feat be a Paragon Racial Feat.

I think we are putting to much weight into the imbalace of certain races and they should be examined thourally on seperate boards a not as a hodgepodge collection on a single thread. Having a single thread to keep all the information centraly located is great but it should serve that purpose alone. I think that is what is being done by flip currently on the main site. Also we need to have a system for descussing points or else this will just fall to a “I think this/I think that” argument and stagnate the discussion.

For points of balance we need to break it down and compare the prices to the whole. First 4th we is abouthaving a base rule then making exceptions to that rule constantly building instead of taking away so having a cost or negative trait on a race is not IMHO 4th. We need to define what that basline is and was was done to take that character for that baseline. We should look at what has been done and assign a weight to that. I.e. A bonus at will power from the human is worth 1 and dellitante from the half elf is worth two. From there you will see that the current races are not 100% perfectly balanced and this will give us the goal for the weight our races should have. If we find out that they are overpowered we can bring them in line and turn the extra cool thing into racial fears that can be picked up as the character progresses. Like the ability for a thri-kreen to use two at wills in a single encounter 2 times a day or the half giants ability to gain half giants resolve.

My 2 ceramic, Tim

One thing i noticed:
Besides the flavoring and text boxes, most of the races are fine as is.
Races not used so far (in any form): Tiefling, for obvious reasons.
Fine as is: Dwarf, Half- Elf, Halfling, Human,
Slight change: Elf. Fey origin does not fit the setting and should be changed, mebbe something cultural (tribal)
Also dragonborn with a tweak can become dray?
Completely New: Mul and Half-Giant. (see the other topics in the forum for an update)
My proposition for modification: Eladrin becomes Thrikreen, as their abilities seem to match. No sleep, A “jump” power, Specific cultural weapon proficiency, a enchantment resistance, all these fit on the thri kreen comfortably. (See the thri kreen topic for my post.)

We changed the elven stat bonuses to +2 Int/+2 Dex. The rational behind that was because elves traditionally were wizardy and with the removal of Tielfing and Eladrin, only Humans can get a +2 Int.

Andthe fact that fey origin, no longer applies to elves as they are in athas?
Since they are spawned from the halflings.

Ohh hold on and didnt eladrin get +2 dex +2 wis?

In the PhB (which I don’t have sitting beside me…): Eladrin get +2 Dex/+2 Int; Elves get +2 Dex/+2 Wis. So we changed that in our campaign.

ahh no you are correct. Just checked. I think i got confused cus of my suggestion that they could be modded to thri-kreen. I gave the kreen +2 wis instead. Which now that the elf (at least how you did it) has the int bonus works out even better for me.

But ye any ideas on a elf feat to replace fey origins?

Make Athas elfs speed 8 instead of fey origins, and or switch one of there skills into endurance, I would go with and.

Elf, Athasian
Average Height: 6’ 6’’ – 7’ 6’‘
Average Weight: 130–180 lb.
Ability Scores: + 2 Dexterity, + 2 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: + 2 Bluff, +2 Perception
Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the longsword & longbow
Born Runner: For the purpose of hourly or daily travel rates, add 2 to your overland speed.
Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares).
Elven Accuracy: You can use elven accuracy as an encounter power.

General thoughts:
1. I agree with the core race list.
2. Race cost: I think it is fairly clear that 4e wants to do away with “level adjustments” or costs for taking a race. The feat approach may be interesting, though I’m not sure exactly how it would work. However, we should try to avoid these costs, if possible. The Monster Manual gives us plenty of suggestions to work with monster races that are balanced, so lets us those as reference.
3. Ability score modifiers: While I agree that D&D 4e now has every race with +2/+2 to abilities, I was considering making every Dark Sun race +4, +2, -2. The idea would be to carry the “survival of the fittest” and more powerful racial traits aspects of 2e over to 4e. There doesn’t seem to be any precedent for this however, even for monster races, and +2/+2 might be the way to go. However, ability scores might need to be considered (the 5-20 range).

I agree with redwulf. This thread should be about general issues about races, not about each specific race, or it will quickly become confusing.
I also agree that 4e indeed seems to want to do away with penalties (to a far too great extent in my opinion) to balance race or class bonuses. However, than doesn’t mean that we couldn’t choose to put those penalties in a Dark Sun conversion within the existing mechanics and thus maintain game balance. Its a choice we’ll have to make, but I would prefer our conversion represent the Dark Sun themes than the 4e themes.
That said, our first attempt should probably stick closer to core 4e, to see if its doable.
As for the racial ability score adjustments, 4e really leaves it in the hands of the players to put appropriate scores for each attributes, with some encouragement to put better scores where you get bonuses. Hopefully, players won’t have to many Int 16 Half-Giants out there, even without racial ability score penalties.

Not that some of the “blanced” MM races have in efect been errated. Minotaurs for example have lost oversized weapon use in Dragon magazin.

I wasn’t aware of that. Are they actually putting official errata in Dragon Magazine? Is this errata available elsewere?

Its not errata as such as far as I’m aware of but the Dragon magazine minotaur is different than the MM one. Seems oversized weapon ability iss also broken. I would assume its been changed in the compendium as well but I’m not sure.

which compendium?

The DDi online one. Has alot of stuff in it but I haven’t looked at it to much.

Regarding the use of Monster Manual races (on pgs 276-279) as reference points for DS races, it’s important to consider the two paragraphs at the beginning of the section:


” Several of the monsters in the Monster Manual have racial
traits and powers, not unlike the races presented in the
Player’s Handbook. In general, these traits and powers are provided
to help Dungeon Masters create nonplayer characters
(NPCs). This information can also be used as guidelines for
creating player character (PC) versions of these creatures,
within reason. Note that these traits and powers are more in
line with monster powers than with player character powers.

A player should only use one of the following races to
create a character with the permission of the Dungeon
Master. The DM should carefully consider which monster
races, if any, to allow as PCs in his or her campaign.”

The Dragon Magazine article objectively states that the newly published Minotaur is available for PCs.

Thanks Monkey. I didn’t read that, although I had assumed as much since the templates were in the Monster Manual and not in the Player’s Handbook.

The use of +4 and -2 racial modifiers has a dramatic effect in 4e. I’m assuming a standard 22 point buy system when considering balance issues. The number of points necessary to raise an ability increases dramatically to achieve an unmodified score of 17 or 18, but having several scores in the 14-16 range is easily doable. Consider a Warlord with a high Str for attack powers, high Int and Chr for class features (or a Str, Dex, and Wis Fighter; or a Con, Int, and Cha Warlock)... additionally, all these ability scores boost different defenses.

Alternatively, consider a 1st level character with a primary attack stat at 22 (a +6 modifier to attack and damage).
Dump stats have much less impact on characters in 4e, so a stat of 6 or two 8’s aren’t such a big deal.
Have a one or two night session with characters with a 28 or 32 point buy and see what it’s like. Then let them level up to Paragon levels for another run, and see what happens. Ability scores are more tightly controlled in 4e, and it’s one area where DM’s and R&D should tread lightly.

I would make no such assumption about using either the point buy system, or only using 22 points for Athas, the 28 and 32 point buy would be my suggestion of where to start Dark Sun characters, and while not necessary, I like the feel of PCs starting at 3rd level, as it leaves more ground behind them for the civilians who are also relatively tough, having survived such a harsh world.
I would think most PCs in Dark Sun are going to have rolled stats, and I for one think the 4D4+4 rolling system from 2nd edition would work just fine for 4th, in fact better than it did for 3.0 or 2nd, but then again I am more interested in Dark Sun being an internally balanced game with an eye to continuity of setting and story than I am interested in it being an exact copy of the forgotten realms, that I think best forgotten on the whole.

2nd ed Dark Sun wasn’t even balenced with itself though. Gladiators were just better than Fighters, and I won’t mention Kreen or Half Giants.

That is why we take the balance from 4e and we take the setting and theme from 2nd, just about the one part of 2nd that was most balanced was the fact that everyone rolls the same stats, and that balances better in 4e than it did in 2nd or even 3e. The slightly higher attribute average wont do much, the cap is a little higher but all that does is put a little bit more focus on the natural strength of the PCs, that really doesn’t change anything system mechanically and if they all have it there is no balance influence at all.

Hi, maybe you will think these ideas are nonsense, but…
Has anyone considered the possibility of adding Elfling (as in the Tribe of One, without the tribe :) ) as PC race? I have never seen it suggested here nor other places, and since it was introduced in the books, it would add flavour.
And the second. This is a personal choice, just to share with you and see what you think. In the campaign I’m preparing (DS4) I’ll allow one of the players to be a dragonborn with stats and traits as in the PHB. It represents a unique first gen dray who rebels against their marginal existence in the “underdark”, abandoned and disdained by their creator, and escapes to the Tablelands conscious of his uniqueness, searching for knowledge. Do you think it is to stretch too much?