So, one of my first thoughts on how the actual act of defiling is accomplished:
In 4e, you have three types of Actions—Standard, Move, and Minor. My initial thought might be that an “untrained” wizard can choose to spend a move action defiling, gaining $some_benefit (I havn’t yet worked out what might be appropriate under the new system). I’d glance at a +1 type implement, and see what kind of adjustments to your spells that makes, and go from there.
I’d also observe that some kinds of spells or rituals may require the use of a particular implement. It’s a pretty easy step from there to saying that some types of spells will require the use of defiling.
With training (a feat, probably) a wizard can learn to defile as a Minor action. Only gap I see here is that some powers are maintained for subsequent effects by concentrating. Concentration, if I recall from D&D XP, was a minor action. Of course, you can always use a “larger” action to gain an “smaller” action, so you could spend a Move and a Minor to concentrate and defile.
Lastly, there’s trying to figure out what the effect of defiling really is. I’ve always kind of hated the bookkeeping of tracking defiled squares, and guessing how far it is based on spell level … that can really bog down a turn in combat. Depending on how 4e powers scale, it might be reasonable to state that the defiling radius is always constant, something that you don’t have to calculate every single time. Your 9-square block, perhaps.
A comitted defiler, one who’s taken a few feats, really gone for it all, might always defile the single square he’s standing on, and gain some implement type benefits for defiling—but not as strong as if he were to really reach out and pull from the surrounding squares. Which would, of course, be a stronger benefit than a “dabbler”, or someone just defiling out of desperation.
Just spitballing a bunch of ideas here. We all know this is always going to be one of the more contentious areas, so I thought we’d start gathering thoughts now …

Sadira defiles in the novel, near a canyon, by taking longer and pulling harder. This might be an advanced feat she would retrain out of later on in the story.
This could double the range of the effect, that 9 ft you describe, and provide some additional power.

I get my 4E books tomorrow and aside from some podcast and interviews, I haven’t read much about the system. I was aware of the Standard/Move/Minor distinction
I definitely feel that having to calculate defiling radius different every single time a spell is case is burdensome. If we want to maintain some of the old feel, the radius could be static depending on the fertility of the area. Three square block if it’s a lush garden, 10 if it’s a badlands or something.

I got my books 1 day before the official date! Thanks to Amazon’s express shipping. It’s a LOT of material to absorb, for sure. And evidently paths are going to be a bitch to design in any balancing way, so will monsters and “NPC monsters”, i.e. NPC enemies – humanoid ones – but that have powers yet no class, so technically they’re monsters. Like the big bady in the first adventure.

If, by paths, you’re referring to Path Dexter, Path Sinister, etc …
Hrm. An interesting concept. Maybe look at the warlock for how to divide between the different paths? You can take a power from any of the Pacts, but you get a bonus for choosing one from your pact.

Very good idea, will look it up. But no, I was refereing to Paragon Paths, and by extension Epic Destinies. They don’t look easy to design and balance. Few abilities, yes, but you could easily powergame while designing them. We will need lot’s of involved discussions for each path and destiny we design, most probably.

Oh. Yes, definately.
The Epic Destinies look interesting, and we do of course have plenty of those in Dark Sun… but definately a bigger effort. Like I said somewhere else, gotta get familiar with the way all this plays….

I think 4e represents a chance to re-work defiling, which i think it is fair to say copped the most flack from fans in the 3/3.5 conversion. I know ‘balance’ must be maintained, but from initial looks at 4e, i think there is more ‘space’ in which to fudge things to be true to the original versions flavor.

I was thinking of Paragon Path for the Sinister and Dexter Paths that add more destructive/protective powers and features to Defiling or non-defiling magic. At Heroic level, only a small feat can do the job for defiling. I copy/paste it from the thread party roles:
The Heroic Feat i was talking about is a Defiling Bonus. Something like:
Defiling Magic [Wizard]
Prerequisite: Wizard, Con 13
Benefit: You can defile land to add +1 feat bonus to damage. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level, it increases to +3.
Special: Defiling cause the land around the Wizard to die like a burst under his feet when the act is done. Burst 3 in Desert; Burst 2 in Savana, Burst 1 in Lush Terrains.

That’s similar to the implementation I’ve been thinking of, except I’m a little leery of making defiling a feat. If it’s a feat, that means defiling is only an option for those characters that have taken the feat.
One of the most interesting things about DS wizards for me is that they’re always tempted to take the quick and easy route the power. If Defiling is a feat, then it’s a mechanical choice that can only be made once. I feel that defiling should always be an option, seductively offer a way out when things get bad.
However, defiling/preserving can’t be a completely arbitrary choice because then players end up defiling when things are dire or when they won’t get caught and not defiling otherwise. Having the Path Dexter Paragon Path only available to wizards that have never defiled (or at least undertaken a serious atonement) might be one way to give the decision to defile real consequences.

Yeah maybe my Defiling Feat can become a Wizard Class Feature. So the Sinister Paragon Path will make Defiling more effective and the Dexter Paragon Path can maybe give a similar bonus but without Defiling. Like you take also a Move Action to return exceeding flow of magic to the land but keep the bonus and a little edge elsewhere.
I think that 4E mentality is ’’less restriction possible, more bonus’’ but with balance in mind.

I think the easiest thing to do to make defiling open to anyone at anytime is to make it an implement. That way, it is there, but not compulsory. It also means it doesn’t use up a feat or anything. Though, I am not sure how implements work.

Well, an implement can be magical or not and usually give a +1 per 5 level. So yeah, maybe Defiling can be use as an implement and give a +1 per 5 level and also corrupt land like a burst equal to the bonus. Could be possible.

Exactly, instead of tyeing it to the character we make it linked to the magic items, the implements. In particular the non holy symbol implements. Such that any use of an implement to apply a bonus to any spell that has the implement keyword automatically defiles the already damaged world of Athas in a defiling radius equal to the bonus. This keeps things simple, modifies few rules, and makes defiling inherent to the setting.
Preservers could require a feat to lower the defiling radius by there wisdom bonus as a minor action by drawing smaller amounts of energy over a larger area.
Any Ritual magic cast would require defiling of its level in radius perhaps double level. Again Ritual preserving would require yet another feat and would add to the time/effort/cost of using any ritual in some way, likely all three.
These effects would apply to more than just wizards, but Athas doesn’t really call anyone a wizard, it just calls you a defiler or preserver, so it hardly matters what class you have, the titles are what you do with the class.

I think if defiling is an implement, then either wizard “type” can use it. But, one is not punished for not using it. Which is what we want.
Any wizard can use a wand. But no wizard must use a wand.

Absolutely. Anything that doesn’t let any wizard choose to defile is a non-starter in my book.
We’re not talking about tying defiling to a particular implement. Rather, what I’m thinking of in this case, is that defiling could be used in place of an implement … different boosts and advantages than a wand.
But I still think it should be usable in conjunction with a normal implement, so I don’t want to go whole hog down that path. A player who’s been pretty heavily defiling shouldn’t just suddenly stop because he found a nice staff…

Looks like we are thinking the same thing. Though, I know absolutely nothing of how 4E works.

I think of defiling as an implement of its own, not as a physical thing, but instead a representation of the different way magic works on Athas, adding it to an existing implement is going to be rare, as all magic items are rare relative to other worlds, but sure it should stack with them. Perhaps different feats could be used to duplicate the special effects of implements or even cheaper magical items specifically designed to do nothing but augment spells cast through the use of defiling (or even non magical configurations of obsidian).
I also think that more classes than just wizard can defile, warlocks, perhaps even warlords, depending on how we want to think of them there is some precedent for everyone not powered by an elemental inner plane to defile with magical effects.

Well, I maintain that defiling is a trait of Arcane magic, not of Wizards.
So, in general, anyone with an Arcane power source is going to defile. Warlords are Martial.
Of course, first thing I consider is that Warlocks are good to represent the three kits that didn’t suffer from the need to defile, so I’m not exactly running a consistant example out of the gate …

You’re right flip. I’m thinking the same for Defiling. It’s just that Warlock are an exception to Arcane Magic. If the Swordmage (the Arcane Defender) have existed in Dark Sun, they would have also been able to defile.

Another question that’s been on my mind is how to address defiling and rituals. Will casting a ritual cause defiling? Only rituals from Wizards, or only those that use the Arcana skill? Does it give any kind of bonus, when that’s even an option (some rituals just have a static effect)? Anyone thought about this at all?

hi to all and excuse for my bad english.
I think that wizard on athas work like car driver. A preserver respect speed limit, instead a defiler not. when a wizard doesn’t respect these limits he defiles and obtain a bonus (for example he can reuse adn exausted power like sadira on the book when defile for the first time) but something bad can create trouble to him (for example lose xp, temporary attribute drain, and similar)
in 2nd edition defiler and preserver were separated class, for 4th edition i think taht the best option is an unique class with two path to choose ad the beginning (similar to pacts of warlock). When a defiler use magic normaly he dosen’t defile… the problem is when the preserver defile and he start his road on sinister path.

I think that for a defiler it must be something any wizard can do, but some specialize in it. so re-writting the wizard class is what I think might be the best way to do this. I don’t think we should pigeon whole our selfs into making DS4 fully compatible with the Players handbook ie.e we don’t need warlocks or Dragonborne in DS4. WE also do not have to reinvent the wheel either. For a new write-up on wizard I only think we have to touch up certain pieces. First I would switch the listed Implements for the class from “Orbs, staffs, wands” to “Preserving or defiling” Then you change the Arcane Implement Mastery and from its current state and add anew class feture called Athisian Magic. these would be something similar to this:
—
Athisian Magic
All Athisian magic come from the life that surrounds us. Whenever a Character uses a Wizard attack or Utility spell the ground around him visibly darkens and dies turning to ash. This is a burst around the character equal to 1/2 the level of the Wizard power being used. All wizards have access to the following at-will power:
Defile the land
At-will, Arcane
Minor Action Burst Special
Effect You may double the burst area of your Athisian magic to gain a +2 power bonus to attack and a +1d6 damage for the next use of a Wizard attack power.
Arcane Implement Mastery
Choose one of the following forms of implement mastery. You may retrain this choice upon reaching a new level as if it were a feat or power with your GMs permission.
Preserving: You know how to best draw the arcane energies from the earth around you without destroying the life it supports. As a minor action you can reduce the burst of your Athisian magic to 0.
You know how to hide you magic from the eyes of those that may wish you harm. you gain stealth as a trained skill and you may make a stealth check to hide any use of a power from the people around you.
Defiler You trade the life of Athas for power, any time you use Defile the Land the power bonus is increased by have of your level.
Because of your callousness towards the life of your world you have found a quick path to power. Once per encounter you may move your alignment one step closer to Chaotic evil to regain one of your daily powers.
—
This is me just throwing things off the top of my head but I would like to make defiling something like this.
Tim

I would drop the alignment part, the alignment system in 4th is bad enough that I intend to ignore it completely and I do not think we should draw focus to it/give defiling a bonus perk/reward CE defilers/or do something as silly as suggesting that detectable stages of corruption from defiling can be acquired as easily as once per encounter.
Just drop that last bit, and perhaps comment that the Defiler path’s use of Defile the land adds +1 to the burst radius as well, and rounds up on the half instead of down.

in 4E, near nothing (except some Paragon Path) is now linked to Alignment, so this part need to be drop. I think Defiler and Preserver defining is more as a Paragon Path for each. Every heroic level Athasian Wizard should be able to defile.
Preserver Paragon Path: Any 11th Wizard (as maybe some evil wizard dont want to risk their neck with defiling). Bonus similar to Defiling but that preserve the land. Maybe some trick/illusion to make spell appear as Psionic Powers.
Defiler Paragon Path: Any non-good 11th Wizard. a Feature that defiling burst is not centered on the caster. Maybe Defile Land to remember a used power.
Defiling is more an athasian possibility for the Arcane Power Source. So if additional class gain powers trough the Arcane Power Source they will also be able to Defile. But your effect (+2 and +1d6) for Defiling i like. At 11th level, get +4 and +2d6. At 21th level, get +6 and +3d6.
Bluff is better than Stealth for Athasian Wizard.

The reason I wanted the Evil thing is because Alignment in DS4 is a choice not a part of your inner being as it was in earlier editions. I did not put it in as a way to balance but as a way to flavor this is an RPG and roleplaying inner struggle may be nice for some. Since alignment is a choice that means with RP you can change that going on the road to redemption and then retraining back to the way of the preserver. The shift is on the linear scale so good to unaligned to evil is what I was thinking but only being able to use defile the Land twice would seem silly for a good character yes. The exact mechanics should change and yes there is nothing that targets a persons Alignment but some GMs will not allow evil PCs in there game giving an inherent drawback in and of itself. Also the defiler fall was very similar to the fall of the Jedi and this is kind of a swing to the darkside. For some GMs they will like that and others may not care. in those campaign it will not matter if the characters alignments is evil or not and if they run on pure mechanics it really wont matter. Dropping it because it doesn’t matter does not seem as strong an argument for keeping it because to some it will.
The point is this if alignment is not used in your campaign then having the rule there also does not matter in your campaign and so therefore it doesn’t hurt your campaign. But for the GM that likes that sort of thing he would have to create a mechanic that we could have given him. Basically the rule is there and you can make an exception but we design games to make the GM’s life better. To force him to create a rule even if it is as minor as this is to not adhere to that philosophy for the sake of people htat would just not use it anyway. i.e. I don’t see a good reason not to have some sort of RP flavor in my RPG.
Tim

I do think that athisian magic should be a 1+1/2 level burst so that there is at least some sort of base effect at all and Difilers can not have a burst of 0 for there low level spells.
I also think that the alignment mechanic should be a slide every 2 or 5 uses to make it slower. as written it is too quick of a fall and people will be sliding back and forth all day long.
Another option would be to make a good verses evil alignment sliding rule for general alignments in the first place and put Defiling as something that would give you a darkside point, for lack of a better term. This would give a optional ruleset that is in its own section and does not have to be used unless the GM wishes to use it. But I still think it should be in the book the struggle of light versus darkness in DS is important to the feel of some campaigns.
Tim

a Burst of 1+ half-level seem a lot. Maybe going with Burst 1 for Heroic, 2 for Paragon and 3 for Epic level spells. Add more to the burst if the land is cheap. Like +3 in Desert but +0 to the Burst in Forest.

I see more the choice of being an Evil Defiler with choosing to go with the Defiler Paragon Path and the Dragon Epic Destiny. And by also choosing to buy Defiling Enhancing Feats.
Evil is now in 4E more fluff and story element than mechanic and i like it that way. Preserver will have access to different choices.

Yea I agree that’s why I now think we should just put in the alignment slide option in a section on alignment than in the core of the defiling rules I do like the tier based burst rather than the calculated one. I also like a modifier based on terrain but I would still stick to the 2/5 rule but only go out to 2 so dessert +2 due to lack of vegetation it needs a bigger area of life. moderate life areas is no biggy so keep that a base rule and then high vegetation areas would be -2 to a minimum of one. There should always be a burst of at least 1 unless you are a preserver. The doubling of Defile the land takes place before the modifier though.
Tim