I have always been of the opinion that not all of the things found in the PHB needed to be represented in DS. Like the Dragonborn or the Teiflings so I wondered what people thought should go into the main core book. Here is my suggestions on races.
Half-Giant
Halfling
Mul
Human
Elf
thri-kreen
Dwarf
I think we should go back to the basics that were first presented to the world with the release of DS to the D and D community upon it’s release. I know the the aarakora and Pteron are now in the main books but I think we could get a 4th edition up and running allot faster if we focus on the tablelands and then expand out from there.
As far as classes go.
Gladiator: a Defender with some striker tendencies kind of like the paladin is a Defender with some cleric tendencies. This is a new class for the martial power source
Wizard: A controller same as PHB. This is both Perserver and defiler no need for many new things just a change of the old.
Templer: A new class that is a leader role for the DS world that is somewhere in between cleric and warlord.
Druid: Another Leader role for DS I don’t know if we would wait on this or not it will probably be coming out with PHB II but do we want to wait for it to come out. If rummers are right though it will be on its own powersource.
Psion: A new type of controller in DS. This is in the same boat as the Druid in the initial release of DS 4 we may have to create this from scratch, only to replace it later when the official release comes out.
Fighter: Defender, as per PHB with some Darksun specific powers
Cleric: Leader, as per PHB with some Darksun specific powers
Ranger: This is adjusted for desert life but fills the same striker role and is much like the one in the PHB.
Rouge: Another striker and similar to the entry in the PHB.
This would give us 2 of each type, unlike the base book and give us a good grounding to start any game in DS.
I do not think we need a warlock, warlord or paladin in DS. That’s just my opinion though.
Any thoughts?
Tim

Templar IS a Warlord, just change the name, and power source to the sorcerer king, toss in some feats for social favor and status effects.
Gladiator could benefit from a mixture of paladin defensive powers, and warlord tactical movement powers (particularly the ones that shift enemies around) perhaps just recreating a list of options from those powers already in existence would be enough.
Druid and Psion should wait until PHB II, if the whole thing waits, or they show up in a supplement (or edited primary) doesn’t much matter on a design level, only a development level but we should not worry ourselves about them until the PHB II comes out at least.
Each of the Athas races that also show up in the PHB have some stylistic addition that we should seek to keep. The Dwarf’s focus, the halflings brutality, the Elf’s desert focus and speed, even the human comes with extra durability (perhaps +2 to 2 stats of choice instead of one). These additional features should not come at a cost but should be balanced with each other, everyone has one, and they all aim to bring the regular races the particular flavor and bring them up to the half giant’s power level without seeming to much like power creep.
Other than that, all excellent points, particularly the junking of the dragonborn and teifling, I am sure we were all thinking it, but someone had to say it.

I see the 4E Fighter as the old 2E Gladiator and the Warlord as the old Fighter 2E. I see Paladin now that they are not restricted by Alignment as Templar-Knight if they served a Sorceror-King or as an Elemental Champion if it a Element so they can clearly be in DS4. Templar is only a Cleric with a Sorceror-King instead of Elemental source.
Warlock can be change to Grey, Black or Cerulean Pacts. Wizard need only a access to defiling if they want (like a natural implement).
So you can use all the class in the PHB1 with only change in Warlock. Add Dark Sun Class Feat for Flavor.
I like what Hendell said for Race, but i see that more as Athasian Racial Feat instead of direct in the race entry mod. Dragonborn and Tiefling are not athasian, so dropping them is logical. But access to a Dray Race can be cool.
Psion seem to be for PHB 3+ and not the PHB2.

I think that the Warlord would work for Templer but I would change the power source to divine and the implement to the Sorcerer king itself and being able to call on him within his city state or an equivalent range of him only. Just being in the presence of the king is what give the Templer it’s power. Then I would add the implement keyword to some of the warlord powers or just take away some of his powers and give him some equivalent Paladin ones to make it more in line with this flavor. I guess that would be pain in the butt for those Templers in Tyr since they lost their Sorcerer king they no longer have an implement and can no longer access some of their abilities. Retrain anyone? This gives a nice feel, I think to the Templers and brings them into DS nicely.
As for the Gladiator I think if he had movement abilities it makes him more like a fighter. The fighter has tanking abilities ad movement ones as well. Were the paladin had tanking powers with some healing. This is why I would move the gladiator to a tanking/striker instead. You could also make the movement abilities more like the avoidance abilities of the Rogue and Ranger rather than a the tactical movements of the Warlord and Fighter. I.e. a tank/mobility Defender. rather than a tank/tactics Defender. The difference is that he sifts himself instead of forcing movement on the opponent. this would give the Gladiator a really nice feel for the new game.
I also agree that we can wait on the Druid till the PHB II comes out but Waiting on the PHB II for DS 4 is not what I would like to see especially since it won’t be out until late next year. We could be playtesting the base rules in a month if we wish and giving feedback to the writers. but without Psionics DS is not really DS maybe as a stop gap the Warlocks powers could be modified to give the Psion powers until PHB II comes out. This way people can start play-testing now and then when PHB II comes out you just have to swap the Psion for our janked Psion. I have already started converting the main DS 3.5 book to a new DS 4 version to play-test some of these rules to see how they run so I can give better input.
Tim

If Psion is looking to be out in PHB III then I see no reason why we should wait on implementing a psudo-class of our own.
Tim

PHB2 is scheduled for March 2009 (Divine, Arcane and Primal Source in it) and the Arcane Power Sourcebook in April.

Have they made the official yet? I guess I could just look. It such that there will not be more than one new source in the next PHB. I was hoping for the Ki, Primal, Psion sources. :(
Tim

Well, Divine, Martial & Arcane will be complete. So PHB3 will probably re-use Primal, with 2 new source like Psi and Ki.

Gladiator taking on aspects of ranger and rogue sounds like a good idea, with a strong focus in the direction of the melee powers of both, in exchange for not really being a ranged class (javelins sure, but not really special ranged abilities). Psions are going to be tricky no mater who does it, or when, I think we could just ‘quick fix’ warlock into the psion position in DS, the powers cover a lot of the stylistic need and we don’t really have anything else to do with it. Keep paladins, call them elemental guardians, make them out to be the more fighting type of cleric, but not really a distinctly different social role. Templar are to some extent renamed clerics, but the battlefield and squad fighting focus of them seems to lend itself quite easily into warlord (an already very healing able class) add the sorcerer king implement to them in the form of the holy symbol/badge of rank and call it done.

I agree with most of this it sounds really good to me so far. I like the quick fix for Psion and the gladiator is sounding like a very interesting class to me. I don’t think we should keep the Paladin though but take some of its powers and combine them with the warlord powers to form the Templer class. especially some of the implement powers of the Paladin with the tactical powers of the Warlord. this combo gives us a straight combination that gets us into the thick of playtesting within a month or two and then we can tweak them from there until we get the first DS4 book out some time in the next year. Can we get a board for each of the base classes that we wish to start working on so we can start with power selection and base class features? or should we start with one and then move to the next like we are basically doing with races right now?
Tim

So as a recap what are we going to include in the first release so we can focus on them first? also is flip on here to head things up or is there someone else to organize or efforts or am I just confused on the purpose of these boards? I hope that did not come off out of place or offensive it is not my intention but sometimes the way things are read can be misleading.
Tim

I’m here. Just been a bit busy the past two days.
Working on shaping up subsections of site, mentioned elsewhere. Currently working on the forms for powers, and how those are to be stored. Honestly, that’s probably the trickiest part, since concensus seems to be against needing full history. Follow that up with forms for editing races, and I’ll hopefully bring things live at the end of the weekend.
Also, just trying to see where discussion drives things.

• DS1 Fighter 4e Warlord
• DS1 Gladiator 4e Fighter
  

  Given the sheer number of powers available for each class, and that they’re unique per class, I am extremly hestitant to bite off writing up a new class. It’s not a minor thing—not that it ever was in 3e, but this takes it big step beyond even that.
  Which, of course, leaves us in a bind with Psionics. Not that this isn’t a place where we’ve been before.
  At the very least, Core has reserved a real niche for psionics, which is a step up from the past. I’m not overly interested, for reasons given above, in trying to develop and entirely complete psionics class, only to toss it once WotC releases Eberron…

I don’t like the idea of a Fighter becoming the Warlord due to the switch of roles. And although they are written up in the 4th Ed books we do not have to use everything that is there.

The idea of making a new class of gladiator out of certain Rogue and Ranger abilities is a good one. I think we can do the same for the Templer by combining some of the Paladin healing and Warlord Healing and tactics. For the Psion we use the warlock powers and give them new keywords to fill the gap for now and we are using most of what is in the PHB but making it unique to DS. Then we rewrite all of the descriptions and use references to the powers in the book and we have our base classes to start with. it would break down something like this.

IMHO, we need to stack more with the PHB, only suppress some race and tweak some classes but not change much, instead we need to add a lot of stuff.
WARLORD: The Warlord have a place in Dark Sun, as Athas need a Martial Leader and they totally fill the role of the fighter of old 2E with followers who lead slave tribes and villages.
PSI POWERS: We can maybe improvise some stuffs for Wild Talents but i think it’s better to wait for a complete Psion class (Controller with Psi power source, like Kineticist). We will see probably some kind of Psi Striker (Mind Blade) and some Psi Defender (Psychic Warrior). Humm, Psi Leader can also be some kind of Telepath (lots of psychic effect).
GLADIATOR: We already have 2 Martial Strikers, we don’t need another hybrid one as the Gladiator. And the Fighter Paragon Paths like the Pit Fighter, the Iron Vanguard and the Swordmaster totally fit specialize Gladiator, the proof that the Fighter is the Gladiator undercover.

Agreed the Warlord could easily be added to the Classes of DS and you could just add a build for the Gladiator to the fighter description. And you could just leave out Psions for the next year and a half or two years. You are absolutely correct but that is not what I would want to do for a DS game I would run. Gladiators are distinctly a DS class and I think that a blend of Fighter with some striker abilities or another build of martial striker is the way to go. we currently have three striker builds anyway.

Fighters of 2nd where very different than the Warlord of 4th. The rules for followers does not make them leaders they were front line in the trenches, and they didn’t get followers until 10th or so level the equivalent of a 15th level 4th ed character. Not to mention that the reason they got followers is because there was nothing like a warlord class in 2nd. I am glad they made them distinct and would not wish to rejoin them. Fighters should be Defenders not leaders. You can have war generals, true, but they are leaders first and not as good as a hardened veteran of war when it comes to getting your hands dirty. If you are looking for that then take a fighter and multiclass him as a Warlord.

No Psions is not anything I would like to see, It is not DS without psions. It’s not an opinion it’s a fact. The two go hand in hand.

You are right though we could just stick to PHB and change a few things here and there and then in a month or two put out a playtest document to start playing, but the same can be said for what we have proposed as well. I, for one, would rather see the uniqueness of DS shine. It is one of the things I love about he setting is that it is unique. I don’t want to play in forgotten realms in the desert I want to play DS. Like I said I don’t disagree with you we can do all of the things that you propose but I think we would be selling ourselfs up short.

Tim

I understand for Psion but since they are not their, we can focus more on some Wild Talent rule to give psionic power to PC then building class that we will need to drop when PHB3 arrive, like flip said. We need to focus first to adapt PHB1 to DS4. We will have also to convert what the PHB2 have when it will be there (March 2009).
i think the uniqueness in Dark Sun are more a focus on Races and Feats thing than Classes. But for classes, to use the most out of the PHB1:
I’m sure we can adapt the Paladin PHB class to fit a Templar-Knight of Sorceror-King or a Elemental Champion, an Athasian Defender with the Divine Power Source.
For Templar, it’s only a Cleric with a Sorceror-King as a source. We only need to create Channel Sorceror-King Feat similar to Channel Divinity. But yeah, you can create a Paragon Path Templar thing that give him more powers, like a reroll to Diplomacy/Intimidate.
For Warlock it’s only alteration of the Pacts to fit: a Grey, Black or Cerulean Pact.

I don’t agree with Shoehorning 4th ed into DS4 just because a class is in the PHB does not mean it needs to be in DS. But this is not productive to the whole, so I have said my peace and will continue to try and be productive for DS4.

if we are going to shoehorn then I think that it would be better to rename the Paladin as a templar and then change the implement to the SK than to have two clerics. this allows us to have the cleric as a cleric. I would drop Warlock altogether and this brings us down to 2 defenders, 2 strikers, 2 Leaders and when the Psions come out a 2nd controller. more akin to this:

So the steps for DS4 Guides as i see it, in that order:
Step A:
Add Athasian Races first (Athasian Elf, Mul, Pterran, Thri-Kreen, Half-Giant, Dray). Other races only need athasian and flavor. No Tiefling/Dragonborn.
Adapt PHB1 Classes to DS4 (Paladin, Warlock, Wizard, Cleric). Other classes don’t need change except maybe athasian power names.
Add Athasian Paragon Paths (Trader, Templar, Defiler, Preserver) and Athasian Epic Destinies (Dragon, Avangion, Elemental Lord, The Order).
Add Athasian Feats like Dwarven Focus, Elven Run, Mul Exertion and the like.
Add Athasian Equipements and Athasian Magic/Psionic items.
Add Athasian Rituals (Raze, Metamorphosis Spell).
Step B: DS4 Campaign Guide
Dregoth spell to Godhood change to DS4? Maybe it’s the cause for the Elemental Chaos now. Shadowfell = the Black ? what of the Gray?
Maybe a unify and more present Dray Race. Rebuild of Giustenal?
Timeline advance?
Deadlands and Thor-Kreen Empire problems?
Raam? Balic stuff?
Nibenay reaching 25th level Dragon?
Step C: Stuff that arent there yet, a Psionic-Lite Rules Guide
Wild Talents
Psionic Class Template for NPC
Psi Leader: Telepath (Charms-like power and other psychic stuff)
Psi Controller: Kineticist (fire, cold, lightning, thunder stuff)
Psi Striker: Mind Blade
Psi Defender: Psychic Warrior

Just to get things up and going I would stick to the standards when it come to the lists. and then expand on them. So:

Part 1: Athasian Races

I’ve been doing a little work on my own conversion and wouldn’t mind combining efforts with you guys. I’m taking a more work approach though and sticking closer to DS cannon. I already did my races basically, they were simple enough. They are mostly the same as the PHB with a few changes to fit DS, and of course I had to make three new ones. For classes I am doing a lot of design (though much of it is stolen from classes that will be cut)
Martial
Fighter (w/ Gladiator PP)
Ranger
Rogue (w/ Bard PP)
Warlord
Elemental
Cleric: striker, a very cool class that I am designing
Druid: leader, this is pretty much going to be the cleric from PHB I
Templar: initially these will be monsters
Arcane
Wizard
Psionic
Psychic Warrior: defender, I’m reusing a lot of Paladin stuff. Much of the radiant will be turned into psychic
Psion: striker: this is going to be mostly new stuff
Since I am cutting the Warlock (obviously) adding in two new strikers (Cleric and Psion) won’t be too hard.
For wild talents I am going to let everyone pick a 5th level or lower magic item and basically take the powers from there. You don’t get enhancement bonuses though.

Hi, new to the forums, although I’ve been coming to this site for years now. I agree with redwulfe on the list of races that should be included in the first batch of the core rules. And the ideas that you guys have been throwing around for how to handle classes sound great. The thing that popped up in my mind that I think might have been overlooked is how to handle the Thri-Kreen’s multiple limbs.
The ability attack more often per round than any other race has been one of the defining features of the Thri-Kreen since 2nd edition. This had been balanced with their inability to wear armor and level adjustment, but now level adjustments are a thing of the past. Plus, with the new utilization of powers, the ranger class seems to be the only class that really benefits a lot from wielding multiple weapons, and they’re limited to two. I was wondering if anyone could think of a way to implement all the extra attacks Thri-Kreen receive without terribly over-powering them.
Even if you were to create a racial At-Will power for them that allows four attacks in a round, I can’t see how that could possibly balance with the other At-Will powers. Even if it was limited to being an Encounter power it seems too powerful. It might balance somewhat as a Daily power, but the idea of limiting the multiple attacks of Thri-Kreen to once per day makes me cringe. Anyone have any ideas on this one?

Basic 4-Handed: You have 4 hands to carry or manipulate stuff. You can only apply one bonus between a two-handed weapon or the shield in combat.
Enhanced with a Racial feat:
4-Handed Combat [Thri-Kreen]
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen, Two-Weapon Fighting and/or Shield Proficiency
Benefit: If you are Proficient with Shield, you can stack bonus of a two-handed weapon and a shield or 2 single-handed weapons and 2 shields.
If you are Proficient with Two-Weapon Fighting, you can instead choose to fight with 4 weapons, stacking the +1 bonus for secondary weapons.

You know, you guys keep pointing to the Paladin and the Warlord for the Templar, presumably because you don’t think either one belongs. I very much disagree that the Warlord doesn’t belong, it fits in well enough.
The problem with yanking from either of them, however, comes down to the roles. A Paladin is a defender. A Warlord is a leader. Templars are manifestly controllers.
There really is no question about it in my mind. Think about the role they play

I partly agree with flip. Templars are controllers, but they are also leaders. The question ist, when it comes to party roles, which one should wheight more, and there I think, it should be a leader role.

Templars as controllers flip? They’ve felt like leaders to me from the start. To me, a Templar standing on the battlefield behind a row of soliders, barking out orders and calling for Nibenay’s protection while the shriveled defiler lays waste to Gulg skirmishers feels totally right to me.
In general, however, I don’t think there’s any reason why Templar (as an imbued agent of a SM) has to map to a single “Templar” class. If we accept that SMs can be the source of divine power, it makes sense to me that “Templars” are just divine characters who draw their powers from a SM. More soldier-ish Templars are “Paladins” and more spellcaster-ish Templars are “Clerics.”
Granted, if some crazy divine class comes down the pike later, this may have to be reevaluated. But for now, this is what seems the most logical to me.

The Warlord doesn’t need to be shoehorned into Athas even though it didn’t exist in 2nd ed. Warlord easily fits in Athas IMHO kinda like the 3.5 scout which became my Halflings favoured class.The Gladiator always felt like a fighter varient to me and I would suggest scrapping the class. Existing gladiators should just become a martial class (ranger, Rogue, fighter).
I wouldn’t worry about epic destinies to much at this point. As I understand it Athas.org had trouble getting playtesters for their last epic rules probably due to the fact virtually no one played 3.5 epic games. 4th ed epic looks better anyway but they can wait. Paladins can become Templar Knights for the meantime or maybe a Cleric varient. NPC Templars can be NPCs like the Orcus cultists from the MM.
I wouldn’t worry about Hybrid classes to much. A psychic warrior is really only a Fighter/psion multiclass in 4th ed rules. One could tweak the Warlock for a temporary Psionic fix IMHO. Change its power source to psion and maybe rename some of its powers etc. While not including Tieflings as such since they’re in the PHB maybe have a sidebar saying if someone really wants to play one they’re just a mutant via the pritine tower or something like that.
While not an exact fit Dragonborn=Dray change the fluff. NPC Ogres= Half Giants etc. Don’t get bogged down to much- just do it. Somewhere in the MM or DMG there is a section saying that you can just change the physical description for a monster and use the stats form the MM. Make Goblins or Kobolds medium and call them Gith or something.

Why drop the dragonborn? They seem like Dray to me. Mebbe not a pc race, or if so in a campaign where the players serve/ran away from Dregoth.

Here are some of my musings on the classes:
Fighter/Gladiator
On the fighter/Gladiator front, make them the same class? Differences come when they hit paragon levels?
Thats the way id go. (Look at the Pit Fighter Paragon)
Or possible give them two sets of class abilities, then they choose one set.
For example You can frame the flavor like so:
Gladiator path: Primarily a Damage dealer. Excels in small scale individual combat. Primarily found in cities (obviously), and urban zones. The more i think about it the more i think this should be a ruthless, sneaky git class. Not only gladiators fighting in an arena, but also the criminals fighting in the dark alleys could be trained in the “gladiator” path. Fighters who trained in the “school of hard knocks”, throw sand in the enemies yes, hit them with that table leg, etc.
Fighter Path: Primarily a defender. Excels as part of a unit. Think Soldier, trained to be part of a greater whole. Disciplined and ready to follow commands. Focus on traditional military objectives. Guarding, Holding + Taking Ground. Etc. In short as it is currently in the 4thed book.
So swap out some of the more tanking abilities for some combat advantage/damage ones?
I think its fine in 4thed PHB as is imho.
Paladin/Templar:
Paladin’s are defined as warrior with a holy cause, crusaders in other words. As there are no Gods…..
So in short they seem like martial templars . Servants of the Various Sorcerer kings, on the battlefields.
Im inclined to think that Hamanu’s templars might resemble paladins.
In a sense this use of “templar” seems closer to our real world historie’s use of the world.
So does that mean we have 2 kinds of classes that Gain divine power from the sorcerer kings?
1 – The more studious/sneaky/educated Spellcaster Templars: Traditional DS templars. (Tithian springs to
mind)
2- The Warrior Crusader with the “divine” will of his sorcerer king’s guiding his sword arm.
The long overdue possibility of “evil” paladins, wasnt around when 2nd ed was out so i don’t think paladins was considered back then.
In short, Templars = the advisers/bureaucrats/Spell casters, Paladin’s = The martial champion’s of the sorcerer king’s
Warlord
I think the warlord works just fine in DS. Think of All those slave tribes, stuck in the desert. How do they survive…. A warlord leader of course. Healing without the divine cleric :).
Wizards and Warlocks
Wizards work just fine as is. Cerulean/Black/Gray = Paragon Classes.
Im really am not sure how the Warlock would fit into DS. So Mebbe the Psion conversion discussed could be a temporary solution to the lack of psionics.
Clerics
Elemental clerics. How do they change with the new “elemental chaos” of 4th? If i recall Denning wasnt the biggest fan of para-elements. Shouldn’t be too much of a hassle revamping 4thed cleric.
Ranger
Seems fine. Same kinda mod from 2ed ranger to 2ed ds ranger, low hassles.
Bards + Barbarians + Druids
What about the bards and barbs?
And droods? Nature magic? Maybe make their magic mechanic relates to defiling in some way?

Hey my fellow athasians… so I´m eager to see the Templar. Reading the already posted comments and ideas, it is very obvius that the Templar is more Warlord oriented but lets not forget his divine powers, and the infamous turn undead hehehe. The warlord goes well with the Templar´s secular authority so we should start by basic core class stuff. THE SKILLS, my guess is that we will use the same HP formula of the Warlord, also as an idea we could add or replace the following skills: Religion (thanks to the SK) and streewise (after all they are very urban.
Any thoughts