I don’t see it, especially in Dark Sun.
The whole focus of the game was essentially character customization.
Do we see this in 4th edition? No.
This was always an important thing to me in D&D, and it always will be. So, why does 4th edition have to take this away? Just because I chose “Ranger” and “Elf” doesn’t mean my character should pop out like roughly half of the Elven Rangers ever created, ever.
And what’s this with all stat boosts? Who’s big idea was this? Now everyone’s powerful, everyone’s good at everything. You have to account for those that are lesser than humans in certain respects. This is running around the rule of thumb that the average human has all 10’s as his ability scores.
You’re telling me that a Half-Giant isn’t duller on average than a human? this is what stat penalties were encompassing, instead of just sweeping a race’s weakness under the carpet and keeping everything that makes it apealing for people who want nothing more than a really powerful character.
I’ve actually played the game and it’s attrocious. It looks as if the Wizards team just chucked away everything that made the game fun and replaced it with this simplified bullshit that helps them sell their minis.
The DM was actually talking about it and said something along the lines of “Yeah, the game’s much easier now, I can’t wait until ever character just has one attack and does that”. He said it as if it was something to look forward to. I don’t want to ever be limited as a player.
And that is what I find most problematic with 4th edition. It seems to me like Wizards just wants to get more money with their minis and screw the player.
“You want a monk? No, you’ll have to wait a year and pay another 50 dollars.” Bullshit. I hate Wizard’s and it’s guts for what it has done. If this stuff doesn’t get fixed by 5th edition, I will never buy another Wizards product again.
Does anyone agree with me here?

I almost did not reply as I do not wish to lend credence to this type of nearly flame based argument. I can however see a few semi valid points buried within the abject hatred.
The question of racial attribute penalties is washed away with a more in depth understanding of how the 4E system actually works that I can neither explain in text, nor feel like taking the time to try, suffice it to say that attribute penalties would be totally irrelevant in terms of the actual effect they have during game play.
This leads us to the idea that the customization of a race and or class combo has been lowered. This is simply not true, the same RP based options exist as always, and the combat versatility of each of the classes (of which there are more than any other edition in as few books) or paragon path options is at least as impressive, and in many cases more so than ever before.
If for some reason you think 4E limits PCs to a single attack per round you have also not read the rules very closely. I have played 5 PCs each of a different class, varying by level from 1 to 14 in the 4E system and I am quite sure that only very rarely was I forced to only make a single attack roll against a single target in a given turn, and even then I was likely doing something else useful like healing a friend in trouble.
To put this all in perspective of my opinions on 4E and its relationship to Dark Sun I have ALWAYS seen Dark Sun as the best example of the mixing of combat and concept within a character. This comes from the twinned requirements of being able to survive a fight and knowing when a fight is not an option, both of which Dark Sun has incorporated fully into the basic premise of the setting.
This is perhaps my favorite thing about the setting, as I strive to have the best of both RP and rampant killing or destruction in all my games.
You may also be suffering from a DM with an incomplete understanding of the 4E system and its purpose, or perhaps just one who loves simplicity a little to much and has latched onto 4E as a potentially simple system, despite the fact that there are many complexities available within it.

I understand not having the prior base choices in one book as frustrating. The classes and races they do choose to have in the (first) core books gives the game a flavor that isn’t the same as previous editions. However, this is a strength, not a weakness.

There is now a very big difference in races. The race that you pick means a lot more in 4E. The dwarven ability to take a second wind as a minor action is HUGE! Same for the eladrin teleport or breath weapon of a dragonborn. And they are always a help. Further, feats still make characters different as well.

Further, DND has now embraced classes. What you pick for a character is what they know best. They can learn other abilities but they know that main class best. For an RPG, that works very well.

Now, for the subjective part. The class part above is very nice. They combined it with roles so that a player knows what his character does in the group. (If you play a lot of class less systems, sometimes it’s tough to know what a character should do in the group.) It’s also nice that the race choice matters more than beyond fifth level, which wasn’t the case in 3E or earlier.

Specifically, for me and my group, 4E is a LOT of fun to play. Combat is more cinematic. And while it is specific to us, we are a group of professionals, ranging from 27 to 43 in age, who have a LOT of things that compete for our time. Playing a version of DND that has maximized the sweet spot of DND makes it fun for all of us, which is a very good thing.

As for Dark Sun, I think 4E has made it even easier to describe how the SKs are as powerful as they are and make them a tough fight but a satisfying fight, from a DM and player point of view. I am not saying it’s a perfect system but it’s really good. My group likes it, which is what is important to us.

edg

The way I see it, the ONLY way I will buy another set of books from Wizards of the Coast is if they continue expanding on the Dark Sun Campaign Setting.

One thing did strike me as odd about 4th.
A 1st level fighter of average stats in 4th edition has 15 HP. This is 50% more than the same fighter in 3rd. (10HP) I think all characters have the same increase. That’s fine and all but the weapons still do the same damage. This means that, if all applicable stats are average, one hit from a short sword (1d6) can not possible be lethal, even with a critical hit. This makes for a more user friendly game since 1st level characters wont get rocked by 1 good DM role but takes away from the…realism?
I consider 4th the “Bubblegum Punk” version of D&D.
Do note that this opinion does not come from play experience but from a quick read through the PH, which I own but still choose to play 3rd

On a surface level…
I should also like to point out that a 1st level rogue deals an extra +2d6 backstabby damage with that same short sword. Add a single feat (that most Rogues take) and it becomes +2d8 – when they have combat advantage. On an average roll… that rogue WILL hit and WILL take that same fighter down to 0 hit points. That short sword looking a bit more pointy?
Try playing 4e…
and you’ll figure out that all characters go down rather easily if they make a mistake, the DM gets a good roll or two, or the players don’t support each other. It’s a fun strategy game, where circumstance and situation makes a huge difference and can make the game just a deadly or vicious as previous versions, not a “Bubblegum Punk” version of DnD.

I often feel the need to defend 4th edition. Atleast more and more people are coming around to it.
4th edition is either an accidental success or d&d is taking a turn in the right direction.
The combat is smoother… I actually notice the roleplaying from my players because we are not buried in a huge stack of rules.
Give it a shot…

big_goon,
Exactly, an AVERAGE character needs feats to make the sword lethal. (At first level)
Lets imagine an average human male in real life with a short sword. It’s true that most of the time, a single shot from a short sword wont be immediately lethal to another human. It would really take a pretty lucky shot to totally incapacitate another person with just one shot from a short sword. Say a one in 20×6? An average human CAN KILL another human, even an experienced fighter with one shot from a short sword. The fact that it’s impossible for that average human to do so, makes players super human. I certainly expect that from D&D but at first level?

Oops… I shouldn’t have responded. Sorry everybody.
PatentPending, if you want to challenge a character read the DM’s Guide… the player’s handbook has player’s stuff. The DMG and MM has information on how to make an appropriate encounter to kill a fighter… lots of goodies >:)
Nearly Dark Sun-a-licious.