The first DS product for 4th edition came out last week, “Deserts of Athas Dungeon Tiles” and it’s proof that DS 4th edition is ALL WRONG. I don’t even need to tell you why, just look at this image, and tell me what’s wrong:

http://newbiedm.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/dt2…

…because they included some tiles for the Last Sea region? Seriously? “OMG! Don’t they know ANYTHING about the setting?” because they have tiles for the Last Sea region? I think this is only actual proof that you’re unreasonably desperate to find reasons to be a h8ter.

Really, I’m not seeing anything inspirational out that lot, what looks like a few buildings I’ll never use, more buildings, tan terrain, tan and green terrain (my what a cute little sail boat), blue terrain (hey, nice oasis!), and more tan terrain. Well beings how the whole mess of them is smaller than the vinyl map my group uses, oh well. Other wise I’m with Greyorm, deal.
Oh and for the record I’m not a fan of Fourth Edition myself, just like I’m not a fan of llima beans (don’t like something, just stay away from it).

Yeah, for the record I’m not saying the opposite “How could you possibly attack anything with the DS logo because it’s all PERFECT?” or some similar fanboi nonsense, just noting this is hardly proof that DS 4th Edition sucks.

Well greyorm, at least I’m taking my anger out on a faceless, soulless corporation, whereas your attacks are decidedly personal. I would say that makes you a bigger troll than I.

Seriously though… tiles for the Last Sea region? You’re stretching a bit, no?

Anyway, if you look closely at the tiles, there is nothing distinctively ‘Athasian’ about them. They obviously made up a bunch of generic desert tiles (probably years ago), held on to their release until now, and haphazardly slapped the DS logo on them to drum up interest. Yes, Athas has a ‘look’, and its not just standard desert. Its not some picturesque Morrocco type shit: its a twisted, craggy hellish kind of place. The water on Athas isn’t even blue. Its yellow-green, like the colour of the Athas sky.

So, just this once I’ll give Wizards the benefit of the doubt since I don’t think these were designed for DS and they want to produce generic desert tiles. Still if DS 4E comes out and it turns out to be Al-Qadim with Sorceror Kings, Lord help me, my fury will make Rajaat wrath seem quaint.

Let please not turn this in to a flame war, to me it sound like no one is going to be fully satisfied with everything WotC puts out for Dark Sun. Myself I’m simply not a fan of the Fourth Edition; I do plan on buying the book when they come out anyway. Why, I’m wanting to see the fluff for bits to incorporate in to my own game. So if your not in to the new cards, fine don’t get them.

And everyone please quit flinging around words like Haitter, Fanboy and Troll: I know were un-moderated here but that’s not an excuse to go crazy, thanks and sorry if I’ve offended anyone.

Calling a claim on your part unreasonable and overwrought is now a “personal attack” against you, rather than your claim, and then calling me a troll in the same breath?

Wow.

Whatever. Interesting tidbit: Someone on the WotC forums mentioned the blue tiles are supposed to be used for silt, and the ship is a siltskimmer, which, while doable, is a bit cognitively dissonant given silt IIRC is silvery or pale dust/powder, but it is not blue.

Dude, just saw your posting…

Although I agree that the tiles are “uninspiring”, to measure a whole product line that we know very little about on just one product is a tad adventurous.

Also, it’s one thing to live up to our imaginations, and another very different one to be able to make a good looking product with what is is essentially, an ugly combination of colours.

As for Wizards being a faceless and soulless… I have met some of the designers of 4th edition and I can assure you that 4th is anything but soulless. Those people put 100% of their heart in making the best they can with what they’re given and they do a bloody good job of it. 4th Edition might not be perfect (in fact is very flawed) but it is a good product, a good game and a good line.

Let’s keep a thought for the guys who do their best to keep us entertained with the game we love.

Although a bunch of poorly painted papers doesn’t necessarily speak for the whole product line it does give a sign of what the dark sun campaign will be presenting us with in 4th edition.If not,it’s just a failed product.

Secondly,Wizards is a company,it has nothing to do with the designers however good willed they happen to be,and yes in short terms it is a faceless, soulless corporation with the purpose of making profit.Not that there is something wrong with that (every faceless,soulless corporation has it as its purpose) but having fun is more important to us than Wizards making profit.

Also I can assure you that the designers aren’t making the best they can with what they are given (even without meeting them). What was given to them was our favorite game and they turned it into 4th edition in order to give it a wider buying crowd taking advantage of its popularity that was built by hardcore fans while in the same time showing them the door.In other words the only bloody good job they did was for the company’s profit.

4th edition might be a good game (it is safe the kids can’t swallow it when they play) but what do you need it if you have Monopoly or even better play doh in the same house I can ensure you they are very good games too and probably even better lines.Do you know their common feature?They are not DnD.

At last I ‘d like to state that I keep no thoughts for guys that just do their jobs and no I don’t see anyone’s best in the 4th edition’s rpg system,lest I would offend him.
And if the purpose is to entertain us, better try DnD than “the game we love”.

No, what they did was take (one of) our favorite settings and convert it to 4E. Just like it was converted to 3E from 2E. Are you going to piss on athas.org next because of that conversion? Or bitch me out next because I’ve converted the setting to three different game systems myself instead of staying with 3E?

You don’t like 4E? Too bad for you, I guess, since Wizards no longer supports 3E. Or 2E, or 1E, or basic D&D for that matter…better get cracking complaining about all that, too. I mean, how DARE they update the product line to be compatible with their current game system offering?

Holy effin gods, I am so sick of edition wars.

Ok, so I will admit that the title of this thread was a bit hyperbolic, but I still contend that putting a full sheet of water in a dungeon tiles set called ‘The Deserts of Athas’ was a poor conceptual decision, and, being the first actual 4E product we’ve seen for DS, it points toward very bad tidings. I’m also bothered by other details of the tiles like the palm trees and the scrub grass. It all rings of ‘generic desert setting’, which is not what DS is.

What would I have liked to see? Let’s see. Well, how about proper silt, or rocky badlands or stony barrens, perhaps some semi-buried ruins.

Since my initial post, I have played the ‘D&D Encounters’ Dark Sun module at my local game shop. I haven’t seen much mention about D&D Encounters on this site. You all know that Wizards is currently sponsoring a weekly DS game at hobby shops all over north America to drum up support, right?

DnD Encounters was my first experience playing 4th edition rules, but I put away my reluctance in order to play dark sun and see what they were doing with it. I didn’t have any huge problems with the setting changes, I just didn’t like 4E. It felt like a board game. The DM kept referring to the setting as ‘fluff’. As a person who thinks role-playing games should be about ROLE-PLAYING, I fucking HATE when people condescend the setting material as ‘fluff’. I play D&D because I want to immersed in a fantasy world, not because I want to roll dice and move minis around on a table. And in that sense Dark Sun 4E was a fail.

I totally agree, TNO. Here’s hoping for a second DS tile set that addresses those elements!

Unfortunately for me, there is no local game shop to go to. I live at almost the ass-end of bumfuck nowhere (it’s not quite nowhere, but you can see it from here). Nearest shop that MIGHT be hosting D&DEnc is about an hour’s drive away, and much as I might like to participate, I can’t afford to spend that much on gas every week.

As to playing D&D and hoping for an immersive role-playing experience, that’s kind of like going to a steak-house and hoping for a vegan meal. I know you’d be happier playing the setting under a different game system. D&D is heavily weighted towards a very game-y approach to play where characters are pawns used to meet challenges; and that goes for ANY edition, without extreme rules drift/houseruling. It is just not set-up to provide a “role-playing” sort of game.

I will note 3E received the exact same critiques about “just being a video game” and being “all about the rules” when it originally came out, so I am very jaded in regards to criticisms along those lines. The reason D&D works after a while, because people houserule the crap out of it, ignore things by silent consensus, learn the rules until they are second nature and don’t interrupt immersion, etc. and through this method get a “D&D” that lets them engage in character-acting.

Regardless, I’m not a fan of immersion, I definitely prefer gamey play, or story-oriented play, usually with high levels of Pawn-stance or Authorship in play. However, I’ve been told BRP’s Call of Cthulhu is a system good for Immersive play, apparently so is Unisystem, WUSHU might work, too; but really any very light system that gets out of the way of play and doesn’t interrupt in-character-time or segues nicely and unnoticeably into it. Some suggest LARPing is the most immersive form of play available. S/lay w/Me is really light-weight, but it is more a story-creating game than a role-playing game.

I will try to reply to two postings in one, so bear with me…

To Darioth_Dark…

The Athas tiles are a failed product. Let’s leave that very clear. Or is it?

It is very well manufactured (I think anyone complaining that the manufacture and editions of 4th Ed. are bad is just a plonker) with strong materials that are pretty liquid resistant and could last for years. It is highly compatible with any other tiling they’ve made for any other setting. It does depict a desert. Since there are various lakes and at least one sea in Athas, water is not totally out of place.

Now the bad points: The colour palette is very generic and the art direction doesn’t have enough direction.

Is it a good tiles set? yes. Is it a good Athas tiles set? Indeed not. Now you can decide if you want to consider it a good product or not.

Wizards is a company like Paizo, Fantasy Flight, Green Ronin, Whitewolf… That will never make me feel any less respect or admiration for the work people do in those company.

The designers didn’t do anywhere near as much with the game as they’d like. The designers had (still do) very strict instructions as to what they could do or not and how to make the games to maximise the exploitation of the brand, expansion of the ruleset and market invasion. When you work for a corporation, you always do the best you can with whatever it’s given. That applies to any corporation that exploits a creative media, from games, to videogames to movie production or anything else. There is always a boss over you who is a lot less interested than you in the final product. A balance has to be striken and the guys in Wizards have done very well indeed.

Comparing D&D and Monopoly is pure fallacy. To say that Monopoly is a good game is pure idiocy. Play-Doh is not a game, is a tool you can play with, nothing else.

As for your sarcasm, save it. It is totally inappropriate and out of place. Just because I don’t agree with you and I don’t put up with your bullying doesn’t mean I am going to put up with your bad manners too.

The_New_Order

I totally agree with you that it was a very poor conceptual decision and and even worse design decission. I am a graphic designer by trade and I cringed when I compared the maps of Athas i have and this tiles. However, I still thought it was well worth having them and will use them extensively, so for me they’re a success.

I think the blessing and the curse of D&D 4th Ed is that it is too minis orientated.

The fact that it is so minis orientated makes it easy for begginers, or even people who are into strategy games, to play a quick encounter. Easy to prepare and satisfying if that’s what you’re into. Well done then!

The fact that it is so minis orientated makes it easy for anyone to just fall into the rules and not go for the role playing and use our imaginations a bit more. It does take an effort to think how to use the setting more openly and creatively.

I have also played that adventure and I must say it did feel very much like the old Athas. Brutal, hot, dangerous and incredibly attractive and exciting. They’ve restarted where the initial pentalogy left it and have gone into enough details of the cities to make sure you never get stuck.

i think your experience is probably more a bad experience due to the GM than anything else. If any GM I play with called the setting materials as Fluff, I’d probably just walk away as he’d be missing the point. He might as well play Chess with dragons!

I am very much looking forward to the books when I’ll be able to form an informed opinion rather than rant because one thing the company has done doesn’t fit with the perfect idea I had in my mind.

Dear Mr? Leviatham
Who are you to rule what sarcasm is “inappropriate” or “out of place” in any given theme?The sarcasm was not written to make you happy. If you don’t like it,avert your eyes.
In addition if you want to talk about bad manners,I challenge you to find one offending and/or inappropriate word I used in that post (even for sarcasm) against any real person-I don’t consider a company a real person although it is economically valid and it is actually faceless and soulless as of the definition of those words.

You,Mr well mannered man,didn’t hesitate to insult me on a personal level calling my comparing pure fallacy and the mention of monopoly being a good game too pure idiocy.So as for manners you are making a fool of yourself to mention it after what you wrote.But that’s just what the world believes…keep it up if it really gives you a the good sensation that you put the unmannerly man back in line vigilante.

Also,out of pure curiosity,when did I ever bullied anyone?Seriously.Are you seeing things that I don’t?

I never wrote that I didn’t have respect of the designers.I just mentioned that them just doing their job while getting paid for it doesn’t get them any more (especially if I’m completely dissatisfied with the results).

That if the balance they hold is good is purely subjective and in my humble opinion (which I have the right to express whether you like it or not)
is making a pure joke out of DnD.
I don’t care if they are trying to make the game more interesting,they don’t and I won’t crucify the for it but won’t raise my respect of them for no good reason (such as just doing their job and getting paid for it … or for brushing their teeth every night I don’t care).

Written by Mr/Ms greyorm:

“No, what they did was take (one of) our favorite settings and convert it to 4E. Just like it was converted to 3E from 2E. Are you going to piss on athas.org next because of that conversion? Or bitch me out next because I’ve converted the setting to three different game systems myself instead of staying with 3E?

You don’t like 4E? Too bad for you, I guess, since Wizards no longer supports 3E. Or 2E, or 1E, or basic D&D for that matter…better get cracking complaining about all that, too. I mean, how DARE they update the product line to be compatible with their current game system offering?

Holy effin gods, I am so sick of edition wars."

So let me understand things right…
You,are sick of the edition wars..and amid the dessert of the pit..you find a very deceptive tittle called “ACTUAL PROOF THAT DS 4ed SUCKS”,and actually entered and responded.Thinking what? That you stand on a neutral ground with no strong opinions present and,most of all,that no word about editions being better or worse would be mentioned?
In other words:Are you serious?!

Anyway in my eyes they did not update the Darksun campaign setting and DnD in general, they just took the trademarks and put them on something else (it could have been cereal meals but it happened to be a board game).
We could built an rpg system based on who throws a stone farther than the others,that doesn’t mean it is appropriate to translate the game worlds into to neither does it make it possible to have potentially good results.Although,one would mention that the system would be good for a new players health and that the grand new stone throwing rules get people to let their anxiety out it is still not what DnD is and not for the better.

As for the deep immersion RPG I must say that it is highly possible in a DnD environment (the game can be played both ways but I prefer the sophisticated one) were the numerous rules offer for a wide variety of situations in and out of combat.It may not be as entertaining if you want to play in a non magic world but one has to see the system as a whole and magic is a part of it.

No, I figured I’d go in, point out how it was an extremely overblown reaction, and we’d all do the intelligent, mature thing and go, “Yeah, I suppose so. Heh.”

But, unfortunately, some folks decided they wanted to engage in yet another stupid, pointless, subjective, ill-supported edition war that grognards like myself have seen SO MANY TIMES it makes us sick. From the first “Those D&D guys think they’re so much better than us wargamers!” in magazines, to the “GURPS is better than AD&D! No it isn’t!” Usenet war, to the “3E sucks ‘cause it’s just a video game! 2E forever!” ranting that the “4E sucks ‘cause it’s just a video game! 3E forever!” borrowed its entire game-plan from.

So, yeah, after thirty years we’re pretty sick of petty edition wars and childish One True Wayism.

As to your response on “deep immersion”…it is not possible to follow what you are saying because you ramble, jumping from the subject of immersion, to the subject of rules, to the subject of magic, and it literally makes no sense at all, whatever you are trying to argue. There is no link between a lack of magic and immersive play.

Again..we could make an rpg based on who throws a stone farther and then baptize it DnD 5th edition.
That doesn’t mean that it would be DnD as we know it and that we should accept it.
3rd edition made a lot of changes from 2nd edition and much of them were for the worse (in the case of athas for example they didn’t include wild talents which was an integral part of the setting).In the eyes of many 3rd edition is like a regulated,watered down 2nd edition which is not at fault.

As for DnD’s system supporting deep immersion:you can starve,your wounds heal periodically,you have environmental effects to oppose,if you are charmed by someone you have to play what your character would act like if he was protecting a friend and fill in the gaps of logic that rise up,if you have survival and craft skills you can make yourself clothes out of prey,you can use magical effects in creative ways such as building the statue of your beloved out of an ice block through fabricate,make poison taste like sweet juice to the children that ask you for some,make yourself invisible to the city guards in order for you to make a daring escape out of the city.. and so on.
All those things shape the world around you and make it more elaborate and complex (they are not just minor trivia neither “lost time between encounters”).The deep immersion comes when the fictional world around you has a real feel even when it comes by supernatural means,ex:a fireball really burns people and they won’t be right until several days have passed by.
Although without magic the world would not be near as interesting that’s all.

Generally, my preference is for the 2nd Edition core books minus all the splat-books. I actually like the basic D20 system a lot, but feel that 3E D&D had a little too much emphasis on splat and munchkin-ism. The perfect game for me would probably be somewhere between 2E and 3E. Basically, I like the Difficulty Class based system without all the super-powers (feats), crunch and minis. (Castles and Crusades was on the right track, but its potential was never fully realized.)

For DS, in some ways, D20 was an ideal opportunity. DS broke a lot of 2E rules and TSR never fully articulated how to use the new rules (e.g. attributes over 18, defiling magic, and the completely broken psionics system). For some reason, I’ve never been able to bring myself to use the pdfs on this site though. I admire the work that went into them, but they lacked a certain evocative quality in the writing and the artwork.

I disagree with the comment that DnD can’t be immersive. It most certainly can be. My regular group, which plays 1E (the DM’s choice) is very immersive. Maybe I just have a hyperactive imagination, but we routinely experience truly evocative moments and palpable tension at the table. I feel bad for groups that never experience the game on that level.

Darioth, you confusing “immersion” with “extensive rules”.

TNO, I didn’t say it couldn’t be immersive…in fact, you’ve just shot your own argument in the foot. If 1E D&D can be immersive, if the rules don’t matter to whether or not immersion can happen, then 4E D&D can easily be immersive, too. BTW, do you see the WrongBadFun in your “experiencing the game on that level” talk? Or the error in thinking that evocative moments and palpable tension can only come from character immersion?

(BTW, what I did say was that other games provide a foundation for immersion that D&D’s design doesn’t, and that the reason D&D works after a while is because people create houserules, ignore rules by silent consensus, and use the rules until they are second nature and thus have a “D&D” that allows them to play they way they want.)

For one to feel his own body,he needs to have nerves that respond to his moves and general actions,transfer messages of pain and relief and make him attuned to his environment in addition to giving him certain feelings about the atmosphere of certain situations.
I just give the rules the same place and say that if extensive rules or certain generic rules are absent in a system,the resulting world will seem non complex, unrealistic and unattractive for deep immersion RPG.I said that dnd gives a kind of immersion promoting environment if one cares to use its system that way.
The AD&D Ravenloft setting for example introduced the fear,horror and madness checks which were representing the fear certain entities or stressful situations imposed to their environment and it gave a real feel to horrific nature of..say.. the undead before creatures that have never seen them before.It was revived in a watered lest satisfying version in heroes of horror.

And yet many immersive players will state having to roll checks to see if they are scared jerks them right out of immersion and feeling like their character by forcing arbitrary rolls on them; this is, in fact, one of the big complaints from immersive players.

Others more dedicated to simulationism (rather than immersion) want their rules to be as-complete-as-possible or as-realistic-as-possible (often both) so that the world feels real, and they believe they can determine thus how their character “really would” react.

If atmosphere and rules are not what a system has to promote immersion,can you point out what else can a system hope to offer to promote it.
What kind of difference happens to be present in a known system that promotes deep immersion?
Doesn’t whitewolf for example have a bunch of general yet very realistic system of rules?It may be not as complex as dnd but in many cases they feel more realistic which among with the atmosphere presented in the books is why it has gained the label of “immersing rpg”.Same goes for the call of cthulu.But if you think about it,the atmosphere is something you can create by yourself (in other words an illusion).The only thing that remains there when the smoke calms down are the rules of the system,that’s where a system takes the acid test when all else has been done.

Except I pointed out above that immersion thrives on type of rules, usually small rule sets, but regardless of size rule sets that do not get in the way during play, as well as (importantly) their verisimilitude to the subject of the game. Another thing it thrives on is a supportive group hoping to achieve that experience: the social factors of play. I pointed out this, immersion, was different from simulation, as these have different goals which may sometimes intersect, but are also sometimes at odds.

However, none of this makes a difference here, as:

White Wolf an “immersing” RPG? Well, you’re the first one I’ve ever heard call it so. Normally people call it a “story telling” game, which is also inaccurate (it does nothing to promote telling a story beyond saying it does — advances in system design since then have produced much better game engines whose rules really do promote story telling through their use). But saying it promotes immersion because the books are atmospheric?

Ok, if you don’t get why saying the game is so because the books are so is a goofy claim, and especially how that really tells the difference between immersion and simulation, well…that’s why I’m going to say this:

This discussion is not suited for these boards. Understanding and discussion of these issues — like immersion, its nature, its styles, and so forth; how design influences play, and etc. — goes back to the days of Usenet in the 90’s. And from what you’re arguing here, you haven’t done your homework. You’re making really basic, green, decade-old arguments about what “immersion” is or needs or has, etc. and confusing different types of separate things under one term.

Which I say only because I am someone who not only HAS done his homework — who was there on Usenet when system design and player objectives were first debated, and who has spent over ten years discussing game theory since — but who works with it on a practical level on a daily basis, as part of gaming product design, critique, and play. And I don’t think I have the time to walk you through all the potholes you’re stepping into based on the red flags your responses have tossed up.

And I don’t know that it would do any good, because for all I know, you’re certain you’re not a (for lack of a better term) “layman” and privvy to some kind of special knowledge or argument or insight you assume I have never before heard in over a decade of researching this exact stuff with which you will “show me”. (Which is a pretty common attitude in the hobby, unfortunately.) But maybe you aren’t, maybe you’re actually curious. In which case there are waaaay better places for this particular conversation.

Just for the record, this is my last posting on this thread. Considering the reaction of some people, I simply don’t have time to waste in brainless banter. When you learn to have a constructive debate, I’ll participate again.

I am in my perfect right to decide that sarcasm (which is nothing else than another way to insult me) is out of place and inappropriate. The sarcasm was directed to something I said without malice and you insulted me with it. As for averting my eyes to a thread that’s directed to my response is a very stupid thing to say.

I just said when you were offensive. As for your manners, you should stop to read your emails and try to see them from the point of view of the people who have to suffer them. That might show you when you’ve been ill mannered.

I didn’t insult you. As far as I am concerned what you said was fallacy and idiocy and it would still be idiocy and fallacy if the god of the Christians said the same thing. However yes, I do believe your comparison abilities leave a lot to be desired as they were as pointless as stupid. Make of this comment what you will, I care not.

To be considered a fool by the likes of you is indeed high praise as far as I am concerned!

I obviously am seeing things you are not. But then, like any other bully (and I work with them), you can’t see it. Still, not my problem any more!

What i don’t like is not that you express your opinion, is the way you do it and how you obliterate without consideration what anyone else has to say or anyone else’s opinions, not to mention the fact that you form opinions with pernicious speed and lack of balance.

You obviously know a lot about making games interesting, so why don’t you go ahead and do it?. Why are other people working at Wizards and not you?.. I thought so!

Α)What you pointed out about immersion was not what I had in mind and I must admit I misunderstood your points.
I happened to think about simulation and immersion as one dual natured entity but your model works better so I’ll stick with it.
But if I think about it,I never had given hard definitions in those words in english as it happens not to be my mother language.I don’t hesitate to change a definition with another that works better.

Β)Whitewolf has the label of immersing rpg from all the local gamers I know but the wording is wrong if you compare it with the simulation-immersion model you have brought up.

Γ)I don’t care if you have been here since world war II,if you were the man behind Gary Gygax and if you find my arguments green,ancient or radioactive.None of it touches me to the least.By the way I’ve seen many old timers who don’t know basic things about the rpg systems they play so I tent to look suspiciously at people who boast about their “27 year experience on rpg”.In this case (because what you argued about had basis) the boasts give only the feeling of arrogance but in other cases they would speak of foolishness.

Δ)I didn’t know that in order to chat about rpg systems one has anything more to do than play them,experience them and read their rules.If you(any you) have concluded to different definitions than me,we will eventually find a way to translate one to the other (with some misunderstandings in between).In here for example I referred to immersion as something different than what you referred it to be.

Ε)I don’t think myself as keeper of some hidden knowledge and I don’t think that I necessarily have something to “teach” you (as I don’t know you) maybe yes maybe no.
But I am curious of what you might have to say.

To leviatham.

Good,if you happen to think a constructive debate is one that you can say anything and nobody should criticize it or argue about it,have a nice trip.Bye Bye.

I felt that what you said was wrong and responded accordingly without using provocative,insulting or inappropriate words as you did.You could get insulted each time I uttered “banana”,that doesn’t mean that I had to stop mentioning about them.You are in your proper rights to decide if sarcasm is inappropriate or not only when you are using it yourself (in the case it doesn’t contain insulting words) in any other case you can’t make people say what you want or remain silent for certain issues you deem sensitive.Who gave you that authority anyway?

Anyway I can express my opinion any way I want that’s the part of the deal in democracy.I was not the one who brought up or had any problem about manners in the first place.You were.And after directly insulting me.On my part I thought it as a stupid move.

That’s why I didn’t ask you not to call me a bully,an astronaut,or any other name you wanted to,I just asked if you had any proof supporting a statement like this which I missed (in the case of bully).You answered with insults,cliche’ lines that Hollywood bad guys use :“you don’t understand! no one(like you) understands!” and mentions of your way of life as proof of your statements (like if you lived with barbarians I would be one of them).I obviously can’t take them seriously.If you have something else to offer good.

At last I know when a game is trash if I play it and analyze its purpose.I do not have to be in the gaming industry to know about it just like I don’t need to be a chef to know when the food I’m eating is made of shoes and mud.

Gawd all blood mighty…!! Some folk need to grasp what’s worth getting nagry over, lol

look, if you don’t like 4th ed, fine, I hate rap music, mountain climbing and some other stuff folk absolutely love. Fine by me. They don’t pee in my beer, and I’ll do likewise. they have fun, all is good! :)

4th ed is great, for me. if you don’t like that, get a perspective.

3.5 had managed to put me OFF playing D&D (24 years I’ve played it) except on the computer as the complexity had ruined my fun as a DM. I’m a homo sapiens not a CPU

1st and 2nd ed I had fallen out of love with for the reason that they didn’t offer enough depth of variance of characters and monsters. only thieves could sneak, high Intelligence didn’t make spells land better, non-weapon proficiency system was deeply borked etc.

So, I love the ocncepts of 4th ed. D&D is a living game, ti moves on, grow the hell up and grasp that concept! EVERTYHING changes or it DIES.
you don’t have ot like new stuff, but it doesn’t make it automatically bad.

I was suspicious of 4th ed until I tried it and finally I “grokked” it. It’s great fun, you know, FUN? :) I’m not a maths geek who thinks THAC0 and working out all the damn intracasies of the skill points of a “half demon drow warlock/rogue/fighter” are “fun”.
Roleplaying, complex fights and strategies, good rollicking adventure story are FUN.

now onto the legitimate issues

yes, a DS set should have had more dunes, much less water.
water/silt are needed for Dark Sun, but only oasis are important.
I want DS streets and arenas etc.
:)

I can understand that your preferences deffer to mine.No real problem with that.
After all the debate began with leviatham when he wrote that we should keep a thought for the designers for the bloody good job they do about the game.
I didn’t agree about his points and didn’t see the reason why I should raise my respect for them.

Otherwise I didn’t say that everything is for everyone.Play whatever you want.

Aside from those statements.
Personally I see the complexity of a system as something positive which makes it more challenging to master and more interesting to play.And I ’m a homo sapient too noncpu creature too (I had to,do you know what level adjustment a halfbreed of those two has?!)

As for 2nd edition on which I can commend.I have to say that your knowledge is inaccurate.The dmg had options for the players to take anything as a character (even a stone) and to remove racial class limitation (all this as in game variants not house rules),they had great variance in monsters (a truly huge number of them many times complete with unique abilities and ecology) and their abilities where described in sometimes ridiculous depth (for example the piercer had a description of what it tastes like on its ecology).If you play with the right variants,the system gives bonus and penalties on saves that are derived from level difference and the incrise of abilities confers special bonuses (for example con. 25 was giving regeneration).At last,there were ways for you to gain extra proficiencies (if the restriction is what you didn’t like about it).

I can’t love 4th edition as it doesn’t provide me with enough complexity and simulation in order to intrigue me and to give of the illusion that it is an epic world were you can interact with and doesn’t revolves around you.
I can see that DnD is a living game but I see its current state as degeneration as I posted earlier.
When something degenerates,its going to die off sooner or later.Even if you like the new stuff that doesn’t make it good either.It simply has easier game play and character creation at the expense of choices,do you know what acts the same?Junior versions of loved games (intended for younger audiences).Of course don’t get me wrong I am not saying that you are necessarily childish if you like it I ‘m saying that the game is more childish (a vast difference).Better changes that wouldn’t throw out the flavor and wouldn’t be so vast and radical could have been made they weren’t.

Aside from that I don’t see why you should be a math geek to play with thac0 and a mere half demon drow warlock/rogue/fighter nor it would be difficult systemwise (come on it isn’t that hard,their are just linear equations of the simplest form).But I can see the roleplaying rewards of playing such a character in a game (just thing about of the complex storyline that could have resulted in his creation and how could it have shaped his character which you have to pretend of having).If you enjoy roleplaying generally you should cherish the options of having choices such as this to play (or if not your cup of tea for others to play and make the characters they are intrigued with).More complex fights can come from a more complex system,and lets just not mention about how much more complex strategies can be.
Personally I prefer sandbox campaigns but I can’t see why more options would make for worse adventure story (the opposite should be true).
Well that’s about all I think.

If you dislike complexity in favor of flavor fine (as mentioned beforehand play whatever you want),but don’t say ungrounded things just to justify it.

This thread has gotten out of hand. I apologize for starting it. On the other hand, my hyperbolic thread title was intended to breath some life into this message board, which was DEAD a few weeks ago. So in a way, it did do its job.

RE:Math, THAC0 is easy, and I owe DnD for introducing me to algebra and negative numbers long before my school bother to teach it. That is a good thing.

RE: 4E- Its a fun game, but its not DnD. And that is the final word.

Trope fantasy. Classes. Races. Ability scores from 3-18. Saving throws. HPs. AC. Alignments. Equipment lists. Rolling d20. Dungeons. Monsters. Treasure. Heavy combat and exploration focus…etc. Sorry, it’s as much D&D as 3E was (which, I note, certain people went around proclaiming “wasn’t D&D anymore” either).

Fucking edition wars.