I am thinking about a Dark Sun campaign and am hoping Dark Sun is the next world they do with 4E. For my campaign, I have it in several parts, with the first part being the PCs free Tyr. Before that is done, at some point they figure out about the 1000 person levy that Kalak gives to Borys.


digression #1 population
Okay, I think the population of Tyr (indeed of each city-state), and the surrounding area under its control, is ~ 30k people. Doesn’t that seem way too few to support a yearly 1k levy? I have a population spreadsheet and with the numbers I use, that is barely enough to support the levy, although it does depend on the numbers I used. If the levy is only from the city, and the city is less than 28k, the city is slowly sliding downward in population. (Now multiply that by the thousands of years they have had to pay the levy.) I guess it could be done but it seems really small.
/end digression #1


So, assuming Borys doesn’t force the issue, or that they don’t have someone like Tithian who gives the levy in secret, this means that they have to confront Borys. (I see Borys as a lvl 30 solo.)


Does Borys use all of the levies to keep Rajaat imprisoned? Or only some of them and the rest is how he started Ur-Draxa? What about the fact that he used to collect from more cities, but over the years some SKs have been killed and cities have been lost. I can think of at least three cities that Borys doesn’t collect a levy from anymore since they are gone, and it’s possibly as high as five. Has that hurt the prison? Is that how the shadow giants started appearing from the Black?


Once they deal with Borys then they will have to deal with Rajaat.


digression #2 Rajaat
How does everyone else pronounce Rajaat? I usually say ra JOT.


Do non champions have a chance against him? In 4E terms, should he be a lvl 33 solo? or higher? Or do they have to be changed by the Pristine Tower or Dark Lens to have a chance? (I do agree with leaving the Sorcerer Kings at their dragon levels in epic levels in terms of 4E. It also explains why it took so many of them and why some of them went down so quickly.) Again, not sure what to do with a fight with the PCs although they might make an alliance.


I really like Dark Sun but I am wondering if the designers chose some numbers for population that made sense to them but perhaps might be a bit low. How much would it change if the cities were 30k or so themselves and the surrounding area had 7k-15k more in small villages and villas near the towns?


I am curious as to what other’s think about this.


edg

You might be interested in this thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=7805…
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IMO the city-states, post their takeover by the Champions (who tried to barricade themselves and what was left of humanity from the newly born rampaging Dragon), were forged by the SKs into machines that produce disposable people to be sent as part of the levy. Part of those people also come from the surrounding client villages, and some from the wastes captured during raids straight across the sorcerer-king’s domain.
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IMO Defiler Warlords would be near the end of the paragon tier, Champions and Order adepts epic tier, and the Dragon and Rajaat beyond epic tier (like MM’s Orcus).

The population issue haunts my thoughts since I started to play DS. By my side I multiplied city states population by a factor of 5 in order to make something more realistic. BTW it solved a problem but it created another one : how to feed all this mob?
Rajaat : I pronunce it RAJ AT (with “AT” pronunced like the word “hut”). I don’t know if it’s correct , but that’s the Italian way…
Ste

I don’t understand why people have such a big issue with the city-states’ populations and the Dragon’s Levy.The listed population numbers are the numbers as they were around Free Year 1. Prior to that, the cites’ populations were more than likely much larger. 20 years prior, the city-states’ population were roughly 20 thousand more than they were in FY1.
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This is Athas after all. It would only make sense that the Levy would eventually take its toll on the city-states to the point of extinction.

Sysane, the problem is continuation, Borys and the others should be able to do the math involved with population vs. levy. If population runs out there is no levy : Rajaat escapes, traitors painfully die, and everything the Champions have worked for during the last 2000 +/- years is for naught.

As for how to pronounce Rajaat (ră’JĂT), but I could very well be wrong.

In most ancient worlds (I.e. Roman, Jerusalem, Egypt, etc.) the slaves were not counted in the population count. If anything they were an afterthought or footnote, but usually not even noted. If you assume 2-3 slaves for every citizen, that would boost your population by a large factor.

Whose to say that the SKs and the Dragon even took continuation into account? I’m sure when the Champions first imprisoned Rajaat they didn’t figure that Borys was going to continuously need to “re-up” the enchantments that sustained their master’s prison in the Hollow. Once Borys realized the enchantments were weakening he probably used the Levy, and the life force it provided, as a “band aid” while he and the other SKs researched different methods of sustaining Rajaat’s confinement.

Penn: I do remember that some come from surrounding villages and such. I thought I including everything in my number. If not, I apologize. My thought was that the number I used ~30k included the surrounding area. Reading through the original boxed set, it’s tough to imagine a world that’s completely dead except for seven cities and a couple dozen villages. That’s me, though. Maybe it was the designer’s point. However, the research I have done on population and such says that it has to be higher to support the yearly levy.


IL: Thanks! Nice to know I wasn’t alone. By the way, with regards to food, I can see where that would be an issue as well but for me the population was bigger. Once I take care of that, I can explain the food. My thought is that a large area around each city state has crops or flocks to support the population. They might not get rain but the water table could still allow for crops to grow. At least, that’s my first stab at it. It could also be there are druids that keep things growing or water priests.


Thanks to everyone for the replies!


edg

Harsh: Good points! I forgot about that.

Sysane: THANK YOU! I really like that idea. I like it so much, I am going to use it! Thanks again!

edg

EDG,
To address your other question regarding Ur-Draxa and slaves. I wouldn’t doubt if part of the Levy is used to replenish slave stock. Other than citizens convicted of crimes where else can Ur-Draxa pull its slave populace from? Not from nearby settlements, there aren’t any other than a few slave tribes that hide in the Vally of Dust and Fire.
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I’d bet the Levy’s original purpose was purely out of the need of replenishing the city’s slaves and that the number demanded was far less than the current 1000. When Borys discovered that the magics keeping Rajaat imprisoned were beginning to fail, he steadily increased the number needed for levy over the centuries to compensate for the growing amount of life force needed in renewing the enchantments.

EDG,
As for the population issue, Harsh is probably right about the the slaves’ part in the population count. It’s also possible that the slaves were worth only a fraction of a person like in early America. Also, if I were a SK, I would have thousands of slaves who’s only reason for existence is reproduction. Now that I think about it, if one could use magic to create half giants, I bet one could could use magic to increase fertility. This would mean that 1,000 slaves could give birth to 500 sets of twins every year. One could work these kids to exhaustion then sacrifice them 15-20 years later. Problem solved.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Borys uses the sacrifices for something else.
As for the past City States, I don’t remember anything saying the levy was always 1,000. If not, the demise of a city could mean the levy goes up for the survivors.
I pronounce Rajaat the same way you do.
Non Champions have no chance without extreme circumstances. Like you said, it took a team of SKs and a few extraordinary individuals and they didn’t all walk away. In fact they didn’t actually beat him, just imprison him. So, without extraordinary powers, items, or intervention from the DM, no chance.
Continuity in a world as expansive as DS is often a problem. It’s likely that there are glitches that the writers never knew about and problems arise.
Sysane,
The Dragon has been taking the levies for over 1,000 years. By your logic, the population would have been several times it’s size at FY1. Urik’s walls have been standing for as long. There wouldn’t be any room if the Population increased by that much. Also, the world hasn’t changed in that time. There’s no way a population that size could have been sustained if it can barely be sustained as it is.
Also, Hamanu definitely took continuity into account. Kalek, not so much lately but Hamanu’s obsession was making Urik last forever.
One more thought. The vast majority of the Tyr regions population is poor. Poor people reproduce a lot. There’s no way the CSs could support a growing population. What if the levy is a form of population control?

Patent,
I was probably off with my numbers in my haste to post, but still feel that the cities-states’ populations were much large in the past than they are currently. Figure that the city-states populations were roughly half, if not double, the size larger than they are now. Factoring things like decreased food production caused by the rapidly deteriorating environment coupled with the levy, the population would inevitably shrink.
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As I stated before, I doubt that the levy’s demand was always for 1000 beings and was originally much smaller. The levy would have likely increased over the centuries due to cities-states being destroyed (Kalidnay, Yaramuke, & Giustenal) and the Dragon ceasing to journey to cities-states north of the Tyr Region (Kurn & Eldaarich). I’d imagine this would have racially impacted the cities-states’ populations that made up for this loss.
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As for Hamanu. I agree he takes continuity into account for things pertaining to prosperity of Urik, but doubt he gave extensive thought on maintaining Rajaat’s imprisonment in the Black. When the Champions realized they couldn’t physically kill or keep Rajaat dead they scrambled to come up with an alternative which was to imprison him in the Hollow. I can’t imagine that they had time fully research this and hodgepodged a solution before Rajaat fully recuperated.

The city-states’ numbers cannot be dwindling rapidly over the last few decades, for the toll taken on them has been nearly the same for over more than a thousand years now. Cities would appear to be empty shells of ruined buildings, with but a living core, ever dwindling. It’s not the case, thus there is a way to replenish the lives lost. As for what that way is…is of course your choice. I choose to see cities as human factories, others prefer to consider that slaves are not counted in official census. Pick what you like.

I see Borys as a level 30 solo in 4th ed terms while Rajaat would be level 34-35 solo.
The levy would be a form of population control IMHO. The population figures for the city states don’t take the surrounding lands population into account.

The population wouldn’t have dropped over the course of decades, but more like over centuries. I actually like the imagery of near ruined cities-states with its citizens eking out their existence and struggling for survival.

Imagery is fine, especially since you can do whatever you want in your own campaign, but according to the writings on Hamanu and Urik, there’s no way Hamanu would let the population of Urik drop steadily over the course of centuries. He certainly would have realized that, if the population of the whole region dropped, Rajaat would be freed. He bashed Sadira for shortsightedness, he always looked toward the future.

Hamanu would most certianly realize a decrease in poplulation, as well as the other SKs, but their ability to do anything about it is another story. He’d try his best to prevent the Urik from dying for sure, but even the power of a SK has its limits.

Utilizing a slave breading program and possibly using magic to increase fertility is well within the abilities of the SKs. If I thought of this, Hamanu certainly would have.

You can breed all the slaves you want, but when you don’t have the ability to nourish them and proved them sustenance then what? Starvation is already a real issue within most city-states for the free citizens, never mind slaves. Directing food lines to feed slaves would cause civil unrest and then the good possibility of revolution. I’m not saying the Hamanu couldn’t reasonably curb the loss of population for a few centuries, but preventing it entirely is another matter. Especially when you take into consideration the downward spiral of Athas’ environment.

It has been written multiple times that, until the death of kalak, little had changed in the Tyr region in centuries. Rainfall and droughts were (mostly) predictable and Hamanu planned for all of this. I can’t speak to the other SKs since no novel was written from their POV. If little has changed, then the amount of food has not changed. If there was enough food to support a larger population, then there is the potential to have the same amount. In fact, if the Pop grew at all, then there would be a problem. This actually supports the idea that it was a matter of population control. Poor people reproduce. It’s an easy task of confirming that throughout history. The bulk of the population is poor. Hence, a lot of babies.
Granted, it’s far more likely that the creators didn’t take population and reproduction time into consideration when coming up with the 1,000 slave levy but what you’re suggesting is a direct contradiction to what’s been written. It’s more reasonable to come up with a mechanic that has not been addressed than to make up a history that negates what’s already been written.

No making up of history that ignores canon going here, just embellishment of whats been put forth by published material. Where do you see a direct contradiction? Little may have changed in the last few centuries, but there is no written canon that establishes what the city-states’ populations were prior to the conception of the levy. I don’t find it outlandish to speculate that the cities-states’ populations may have been impacted due to the combination of the levy and the environment over the centuries. I’m not saying that this is the only reason why the city-states populations are small only a possible explanation.

You’re saying that the SKs do not take continuation into account and that the populations of the City States have been dropping steadily for hundreds of years. I don’t doubt this could be true for Tyr as Kalak had other concerns and I haven’t read to much on the state of mind of the other SKs except for Hamanu.
Hamanu was concerned with Urik. He took every step to ensure Urik’s longevity even after his death. The walls of Urik had stood for hundreds of years. If the population had been dropping, the city would have been an empty shell, as pennarin pointed out. Hamanu would not have let his city die due to lack of people. You’re implying that Hamanu didn’t look to the future. That was a major theme of The Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. That is the contradiction.

I agree with Patent: Decreasing populations would be an iconic, thematic element of 2e’s Dark Sun if it had been a feature of the setting.
It’s not. A city’s landscape and its population count definitely appear static, no matter the Boxed Set you read.

Actually, what I said was that the SKs probaly didn’t take continuation into account in regards the magics keeping Rajaat imprisoned when they first betrayed him and locked him away in the Hollow. I didn’t say they never take continuation into account regarding other endeavors. Just in that one area.
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I’ll give you that Hamanu (at least the Hamanu portrayed in RaFoaSK), unlike the other SKs, is actually concerned for his city-state and would try everything within his power to ensure its continued well being.

You also said that the populations have been declining for the past several hundred years. This would require that the SKs have ignored the problem. Hamanu would not. That is what I’ve been getting at.
All of the SKs are pretty bright. They would all realize a problem with a declining population. If Raqjaat wasn’t an issue they may ignore the problem as it’s easier to maintain control of a small pop. Since Rajaat was a problem, they would have realized the long term ramifications and, for no other reason than to ensure Rajaat’s imprisonment, done something about the population.

It’s not just about being bright, they also have the long view of an immortal, his perception of time and the progress of history, its cycles.
Knowledge that wars come along, droughts come along, plagues come along, but also bounty (once in a while). It can be predicted by some old wiseman in a city square…but only a SK actually knows this to be true, having lived it a hundred times over.

Actually I offered that as a possible explanation for the city-sates’ populations small numbers. I didn’t say that it was the only explanation. A decline in population could happen regardless of whether the SKs were conscious of it or not.The SKs could try to curb the loss, but the damage may be to far gone to completely stop it altogether. The SKs are a bright lot no doubt, but they are not without their failings and are not infallible. These are the same guys that were duped by Rajaat to commit global genocide for centuries in order to turn the world over to the halflings afterall. History shows that SKs are capable of comitting mistakes (I’m looking at you Kalid-Ma and Sielba).
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I understand that this is an unlikely theory, but still feel that its has merit for those who want to use it. Out of curiosity, does anyone know the first documented mention of the Levy? Was it the Crimson Legion?

Pennarin, “pretty bright” was meant to be facetious. Of course there more than bright. I’m not sure if you meant to correct or reiterate what I said.
Sysane. You offered that as a possible explanation and I said it was not possible and a contradiction to the established lore. Then we repeated the same things a few more times.

Sorry. I just don’t just see any hardcore contradiction. Sure, its unlikely, but I see nothing thats been put forward that absolutely rules it out as a possible explanation.
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I’ll agree to disagree at this point.

Back to EDG’s question about defeating Rajaat. I forgot that there can be dragons other than champions. The real answer is that it would take epic level players or an alliance with epic level characters to defeat Rajaat, without the things I mentioned before.