Hi all;
Which Athas.org product has the planar system described in preservers and defilers converted to 3.0 or 3.5?
Cheers
Jaanos

There is some of it in chapter 2 or 3 of Terrors of the Dead Lands.

r7 will have more. And, it is good.

Awesome, thanks ppl’s

What do you guys think about the Darksun to Spelljamming crossover that was used in the Cloakmaster Novels? Do you think it is worth exploring further, or something to be ignored as a meaningless footnote, or something to be actively countered and looked at as a bad plan?

Hendell as a general rule I would assume that Darksun doesn’t have access to spelljamming ships. Not saying its impossable but any such visit should be extremely rare. I think Thri Kreen of Athas had something about spelljamming but I can’t remember it off the top of my head.
Years ago my PCs played a Spelljamming game. They loaded up a tradesmen with metal 2 handed swords and landed on Athas to sell the weapons. Word got around and they fled without their cargo which The Dragon promptly claimed. They lost alot of money IIRC.

I think Thri Kreen of Athas had something about spelljamming but I can’t remember it off the top of my head.
Cannonly speaking, the Kreen species are natives to Athas. They were there in the Blue age and were mere giant insects with primitive inteligence similar to ants. There’s no way they could have spelljam to Athas. see WRotJC from (tsr version) for reference.
The only race that did came to Athas, that I can remember, are the Githyanki and even then, I’m not sure it was by ship but rather by mean of an astral portal/gate. (I could be wrong about the portal though)
Jihun-

Hendell, if your interested in crossing the two genre you might want to check out this site I found a while back: http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/CrimsonSphere/


It covers some of the isolation issues with Dark Sun plus opens up a whole new set of Rajaat-isms. In my opinion it has been well thought out by the owner (or group).

hendell, what crossover in the novels? I only read the first one…

Pheonix. I like that as well. The only issue with it that I had was that the Sk’s no longer travel to the other planets. It would be very very interesting to see. I have always thought it would be cool if there were parts of Athas with Champions still battling their races, locked in that struggle still. No reason it couldn’t have gone off world.

I seem to recall WarOverlord going on about a Spelljammer/Dark Sun cross-over product he found in a second-hand shop. Perhaps this is the site with the material he claimed he had seen in a book.

Damn he was funny – nearly as funny as the crap he sprouted in his posts

One of the few people I´ve observed and commented:
Black Knight: I am invincible!
Arthur: You´re a looney.

You can find information on the cosmology in the updated Spells and Psionics chapter released yesterday.
If you go to http://athas.org/products/ds3

Thanks – i note that the references to the outerplanes being beyond the grey are absent – any reason? T’was thinking of the lost in the grey side-bar specifically…

I will have to redirect that question to Chris.

thanks

In 3ed, each world has the option of being a closed system. So, all the problems that could have existed kind of went away.
That said, there is discussion of the Deep Grey. Within that space is the Outer Planes. Basicially, it is a space that can contain whatever you need as a DM. If you want there to be an Outer Planes with a Blood War and all that fun, go for it. If you want Dregoth’s travels to be only to locations within the Deep Grey that are similar to the Outer Planes, but don’t really connect to other worlds like FR, (similar to what Eberron has done) that’s cool too.
The Outer Planes have never featured very heavily in the world of Athas. Yes, there are some demons and devils in some adventures, and the whole Black Spine adventure deals with the Astral, but, most of the history of Athas deals with three types of planes. Elemental (and paras), Gray and Black. Anything else is whatever you want.
Personally, with what I have done with the Black, demons and devils could come from there also. Since the Black is a plane of shadows and possibility, it shows what is by absence, but also shows reflections of what could have been. The devils and demons of what people could have become, and what the Rebirth could have been, are all there, slumbering in the darkness, waiting for a wizard to summon them to life again.

It would be great if we could change Dark Sun with 4e. Make the Astral Plane and the Outer Planes dissapear…but like Chris mentions leave the Deep grey opened for all kinds of crazy things. The Planar Gate would open there and tap the infinite possibilities of the Deep Grey, so would the gith Astral gate found under Black Spine Mountains, and the place would be the originator of any yet undisclosed demon army under the control of Dregoth or Daskinor…whatever.

Hmmm…. yeah, i see your logic, but I guess part of the appeal of the previous set-up was that it’s was nebulous – i.e ‘you can’t get there from here ya’ll’
Whilst the outer-planes and other realms were accessible, it was insanely difficult. From the perspective of a character from another realm, why bother with Athas? Any cleric powerful enough to GET there has problems getting their spells (i had a home-brew rule that each spell slot memorised by character from FR and DL had to role as if they were travelling in the grey to see if they managed to get a connection to their god) there was no weave, no wizards had problems, it was poor etc…. BUT the underlying theme was – it’s THERE it’s just bloody difficult to get too!
Whilst the idea of the devils and demons being the in black is cool, it’s kinda staying from cannon material INMHO, but I like what you have done with the Grey and Deep grey. My suggestion would be to include the following:
“When it comes to magical means of planar travel, the buffer formed by the grey imposes some restrictions….” (i.e rework pg 10 of P&D) plus maybe some other fluff, in short, the outerplanes and other realms should still be accessible but VERY difficult to “get to from here”
I’m not sure making Athas a closed system is the way to go, was that specifically agreed upon by the relevant parties within Athas.org? I’d respectfully suggest that whilst the document is fantastic, it just needs to above added to flesh it out and bring it into line with the original material (and by that i mean flavour, not mechanics per se)
Cheers
Jaan

Some other relevant info for creating fluff re: outer planes:
pg 65 of Dragon kings
pg 66 of Dragon kings
pg 91 of Dragon kings (reference to beings from either elemental or astral plane needing to participate in dragon metamorphous)
pg 102 of Dragon kings
pg 126 Wanderer Journal (bit about Degoth, also see the unpublished version of Dregoth Ascending)
That’s just a few, so i think it’s fair to say that whilst the outer-planes didn’t feature EXTENSIVELY in DarkSun materials, there is a consistent mention of them in a variety of source materials; enough i would suggest to warrant their inclusion in the description of the planar set-up.

Come to think of it, the crossover into darksun may have been in the Crimson Sphere stuff, however I am reasonably sure there is comentary to the effect of darksun in spelljammng stuff, and I know there is a history of a Kreen nation controlling all of known space before the first elven nations took over, quite possibly as long ago or longer than the Blue age.
I too have experienced the PCs thinking up bringing metal to Athas via Spelljamming, and I would advise strongly against it, easy, possible, done, or even taken by the Sorcerer Kings. Just stay away from the metal shipments, I advise a HIGH digree of magical trap like nature to Athas Space, or some other complications, or simply ignore it.

Actually one of the sources above specifically states that the crystal sphere around Athas is impenetrable, but i believe this is contradicted by another cannon source, which for the life of me i can’t remember. I also recall that there was a reference to Athas is some spell-jammer material, but this alone shouldn’t support the proposition of spell-jamming over cannon Athas material.
Not wanting to be down on your idea, personally I love it! I just like to see material done as close to the original as possible. And, (this is to the great ppl’s at athas.org Christopher in particular) whilst I accept that MECHANICS wise things need to change between 2e and 3.5, (i.e defilers can’t automatically be more powerful than preservers etc) the ‘fluff’ part I really do thinks needs to be kept as close to the original as possible, and in this case, the outer-planes exist, are accessible and lead to alternative material planes. It’s also clear from Dregoth ascending that he makes contact with a God (or somehow acquires blood from a God) from another realm. That alone clearly indicates that the outer-planes exist and are possible to reach from Athas (albiet with great difficulty).
Whilst the idea of the black being a reflection of what might have been is cool and supported by cannon, in my humble submission that alone should not be used as reason to remove the references to the outerplanes in the material produced, especially as it conflicts with other material released by athas.org (i.e Dregoth Ascending)

Also, the outerplanes are mentioned in the description of the Planar Gate (pg 82 of Legends of Athas) and it mentions piercing the grey. So again i’d humbly suggest that consistency between athas.org products would be a good thing.
Also check out Dregoth Ascending pt3 pg 34, Dregoth Ascending p2 pg 5 (very relevant: “The spiritual conduits that allow the gods of other worlds to draw strength from their worshipers don’t exist on Athas, and so the powers of the planes have turned away from the inhabitants since the earliest days of existence”
Also from same pg 14 ” On other worlds beyond this one exist god-like beings that gather energy from their worshipers along somewhat similar conduits, but these conduits do not exist on Athas”
Thanks for taking the time to consider this.

Don’t forget that consistency took the backseat on many a revising of a setting when we turned the page to 3e, and now will for 4e.
Why should Dark Sun be any different? We can actually solve many of the issues that plague the setting.

I recall a number of reffrences about difficulties or imposibilities to entering Athas by spelljammer but as I too have read a considerable amount of cannon and noncannon material I can’t be sure from whence each comes.
I like the idea of solving the problems, sticking to the theme of Athas, and moving forward, instead of getting boged down in the past. Dregoth Ascending opens many doors (pun intended) for this purpose. With the outer planes now found and linked, even weakly to Athas it becomes possible to find Athas with Planescapeing. Toss in the few questionable references to and from spelljamming and it becomes possible to contact Athas by ship. However both are very risky, considering how differently magic works most wizards are accustom to drawing magic out of the world around them, the ambient magic, Athas doesn’t have that. Some suggestions even point to the Dark Sun sucking in magic in order to refill the void drained out of it long ago. Without the knowledge of how to draw magic directly from life, and without the strong connection to the outer planes most non native spellcasters wont be able to use powerful magics, possibly any.
My thought is that all ‘ritual magic’ from 4e Athas be uniquely different (not in system but in style) such that visitors have to relearn the same rituals they already know in order to be able to cast them. Perhaps also a limiting of the powers on magical items from outside Athas.
As far as system mechanics go that should do for now, any actual use of this is obviously to be up to the individual DMs with a strong suggestion of not using it, or using it only sparingly, and mostly on NPCs.

Bear in mind, though, that Dregoth Ascending was originally written for 2nd edition. We didn´t make any cosmology reference changes when updating it. I figured we wanted to keep the material as close to the original script as possible.

Jon;
Duly noted, however I hope it has become evident that the majority of Athas.org products that do make reference to the planar arrangements make mention of the outerplanes. As such, i humbly suggest for consistency the relevant section in the updated Spells and Psionics be updated to reflect the previous material (both Athas.org and 2e) on the subject. I am happy to volunteer to do this if required.
Pennarin;
No reason for it to be different, but i don’t see this as a ‘problem’ to be solved, and, as i noted to Jon above, from a consistency perspective it makes sense to have the material read the same way. Do we really want athas.org material to be giving mixed messages? isn’t that a problem in itself? so why not make sure we don’t have a problem (conflicting information on planar arrangements) from the beginning?
Hendell;
Similar to what I use in my homebrew already. I’ll leave the idea of inclusion in any 4th edition of Dark Sun up to the wonderful people at athas.org

What do people here think if WoTC did do a DS 4th ed edition I think theres a stong probability they will reshape the Athasian planes. FR planes got changed from 2nd ed to 3rd ed and again goig to 4th ed along with a big reset bomb for the setting.

That might be so, but Athas.org are the ones doing DS3.5 so that’s the one we should focus on getting finished, INMHO