As for the original topic, the clashing tropes of Dark Sun are handled by me just deciding what I want to emphasise. The ‘post apocalyptic’ angle is covered by there being ruins of a bygone age with plentiful metal, fantastical items, and signs of a world better than what we have now. As well as lots of raiders, slaves, wastelands, and mutants. I like mutants…
The sword and sorcery angle is covered by magic being an insidious force that can’t be fully understood. Where grim warriors demonstrate their virtue through a combination of strength and primitive honor. Where scantily clad maidens are rescued from sacrificial altars prayed at by backwards degenerates. A land of primeval monsters, corrupt rulers, and heroes fighting for wealth and glory rather than gods or virtue.
As for the sword and planet genre, it is one I am poorly familiar with, but here’s my take. I depict psionics and lifeshaping as opening the gates to bizzare technologies that are rarely seen yet mark certain realms and peoples as wondrous. These are the examples of lost wonders from bygone years. To live in Athas is to live in a world still dying yet fighting against the decay. Where countless bizzare peoples and creatures can unite for mutual survival against conspiracies of monsters rooted in the very foundations of the setting. Where deeds of heroism are uncommon yet no less remembered.
here’s my take on Sword and Planet:
Sword and Planet has a traditional hero who is honorable and good but does not shy away from using violence to accomplish their ends. The story arc usually starts small and personal but can grow to be world saving or impact significant aspects of the world (though the dangerous nature of the world does not change).
Technology is a mixture of advanced and medieval: Advanced in air transport (airships), ranged weaponry (radium guns), medicine and infrastructure, primitive in that melee weapons (swords and daggers) are still common and animals are used for ground transport.
Social structures are unconventional, with aspects of both utopian and dystopian futures but primarily strange or ‘other’.
Civilization is on the wane - the planet is dying and was at some point in the past more prosperous. This may be the result of wars but also of environmental degradation caused by natural processes which the people of the world try to ameliorate with technology (atmosphere plants).
It seems to me that Sword and Sorcery, Sword and Planet, and Post Apocalyptic can mesh well to some extent then. The biggest “clash” is the bleak nature of Post Apocalyptic with the more high adventure style associated with Sword and Planet. Sword and Sorcery I more often associate with much darker settings (while I associate High Fantasy with its brighter counterpart). But Dark Sun has veered in just how bleak the setting is quite drastically with each edition.
So perhaps the better way to look at things is “How Dark is your Dark Sun?”
I like the axis of ‘Darkness’ as one way of slicing this. In that case would we say Post Apoc is darkest and Sword & Planet brightest?
But even the axis of Darkness is multifaceted - e.g. where the Darkness comes from and whether we can or should do anything about it. Would it be accurate to say that Sword & Planet and Sword & Sorcery accept the Darkness as status quo background while in Post Apocalyptic the Darkness is foregrounded and one of the things the heroes must fight against?
This seems like it would impact the flavor of game one runs.
Sword and Sorcery and Sword & Planet don’t need to be dark at all necessarily. Sword and Sorcery basically just needs to be kind of Grim, but it can be Grim Bright. Sword & Planet is more dramatic when it is in a dark setting where the world is dying, but it can more like Captain Planet as well. Dark just tends to be the norm for many games, in the end, because dark games with problems leads to more conflict, tension, and drama. Post Apocalyptic is really the only one that needs to be Dark.
Can you imagine a bright and cheerful post apocalyptic world? The only way I could see that work is if the previous world was a hellhole and the apocalypse actually gave the well meaning people a chance to thrive. I don’t see it working for Dark Sun but an intriguing twist on some other campaign.
this was my brief on the Sword and Sorcery genre:
The hero has their own code of conduct with a more relativistic morality - they are not a pure hearted saint but neither are they the villain of the story (gray morality).
The story is usually personal and limited in scope (not global in its scope or impact).
Technology is stone age to late medieval but always before the invention of guns.
Social structures are based on despotic city states, tribal affiliations and/or feudal structures.
Civilization is seen as evil and barbarism the natural state of humanity. Signs of fallen pre-human civilizations still remain in the wilderness but these also are usually seen as evil.
I’m not familiar enough with the genre of GrimDark to understand the difference between Grim and Dark. Other adjectives often applied to Dark Sun come to mind but I’m not sure which to attach to which: bleak, desperate, gritty, savage, brutal
On the other I don’t think I’ve ever heard it described as “hopeless”.
Grim = Individual action can’t change the world. vs. Noble = Individual action can change the world.
In a Grim game, individuals simply can’t change the world on their own, or make any other major changes to their society on their own. These games focus on individual accomplishments and personal victories, as larger scale victories aren’t really possible.
In Grim games where characters can have a major impact on society, the characters aren’t the ones responsible - they happen to end up in the right place at the right time to make important choices, and the backdrop of those situation are created or driven by significant competing powers. Usually, one competitor or another WILL win, but the player can swing things to decide who that will be. Getting rid of both, if it’s even possible, would make the situation much worse in the ensuing chaos.
Dark is when things are bad vs. Light, when things are good. Dark games are replete with hunger, injustice, social corruption, moral corruption, and bad guys winning. Light games are the opposite.
Objulen is right on the money, though is seems more like a consensus various players came up with to categorize various settings. It’s also worth noting there’s been countless arguments on where individual settings fit on these axes. But it is interesting to see just how much individual campaigns of DS fit on the scale. How big a difference your PCs make and just how bleak the setting is.
A complaint I’ve heard more than once is that Post Pentad Dark Sun is just “Forgotten Realms in the Desert”. I disagree with that notion, but I do admit that Post Pentad Dark Sun softened up the setting way more than I prefer for my Dark Sun.
Though that doesn’t stop me from pillaging a lot of Post Pentad content to use as I like…
Thanks for the explanation! Now that I understand it, I think the axes of Grim and Dark are useful concepts to think about the type of world you want to run (and to hopefully keep some consistency to it).
Though in theory I really love the idea
in actual play what typically happens is my players cannot change the world but they can change their personal situation (they personally can become more powerful, more wealthy). They do this typically by killing and robbing people and monsters ‘worse’ (Darker?) than themselves. Because the setting is Dark this gives them lots of legitimate targets. Though they are unlikely to help someone altruistically (they’ll want to know what’s in it for them) they are also unlikely to prey on the weak or those ‘less Dark’ than themselves.
Addendum: though in typical Sword & Sorcery fashion they should end up broke by the start of the next adventure.
in addition to the Grim and Dark axes, I wonder if something like “Grit” isn’t another one we should add.
Like how often much time do you as the GM spend talking about sunburn, smelly armpits and sand in your underwear? (or other general unpleasantness)
I think of Post Apocalyptic as being fairly “Gritty” and Sword & Planet as being fairly “Clean”.
One of the reasons I bring this up is because it seems like something the setting encourages but not something I as GM emphasize all that much.
I don’t expect a lot of players like focusing on this much. Adding in snippets here and there, in any genre, can emphasize a character’s state. When you describe a scene, throwing in something like, “the scent of your stink reaching your nostrils as you bake under the sun.” And leaving it there sets the scene and allows you to move on to the more impactful elements of the story.
Hmmm, I run my games like four color comics from the golden and silver ages, no matter what the genre or setting. It may not start off epic, but you can guarantee that it will become epic, and beyond. So, eventually, my players WILL gain the ability to alter the course of the world and affect the future in meaningful ways. That could go towards salvation or destruction depending on their choices. Athas gets the same treatment as everywhere and everywhen else by me. =D
@Killer_DM 's feedback on tech levels varying by region (Tech Levels on Dark Sun? - #10 by Rhal-othan) reminded me that the Dark Sun tropes could also be regionally bounded. The Jagged Cliffs region has a very Sword and Planet feel to it, as does the Thri-Kreen Empire. The Tyr region feels more like the Ancient Earth, Sword and Sorcery setting. And did anyone else get the impression that the Barrier Wastes region was meant to reflect classic “Mad Max” post-apocalypse?
Personally, I favor Athas being salvageable, or being able to be saved. However it makes no sense to me that Athas would somehow return to what it was in any previous era. The fact the new races are being born (and not old ones) tells me that Athas is still alive and kicking… and changing. Thus instead of reversing back, it must be moving forward instead.
Rather than dying, Athas is undergoing metamorphosis. It is undergoing a death-like period of internal rearrangement, before shucking off its old dead cocoon and transforming into a new kind of planet fit to survive in its new environment.
Maybe it will adapt and harmonize to the red sun… maybe it will adapt to become a deep space wanderer not beholden to any sun and freely seek its own fate… or perhaps it will leave to search for a more hospitable sun… or perhaps it will be cast adrift as a wandering seed and implant its remaining life on other likely worlds as it passes by as it drifts through the galaxy…
As part of that process, I obviously favor the concept that it is rejecting magic as a power source or life energy in favor of psionics. Or possibly in favor of lifeshaping instead, and psionics are a side effect of the survival drives of the various existing life forms trying to adapt alongside of Athas.
I agree with the take on Athas being salvageable, I depict Athas as seeing not just a rise of new races and critters, but an explosion in the psionic population as well. It is a world in transition and it’s up to the players to steer that transition towards a brighter tomorrow or yet more suffering.
There’s two flavors of dark I have for my campaigns when I’m not GM-ing an action movie or high adventure. Either things are very bad and whatever decision the PCs make, there will be a heavy cost that they’ll have to come to terms with. However if they’re willing to risk incredible danger and sacrifice a lot they can get that golden ending. That’s also a great way to risk a TPK and more than one PC has died chasing the golden ending. This is also how I depict Dark Sun.
The other approach I take is that things are completely screwed and it is only a matter of time before everything collapses, but the PCs can delay that long enough for them and their children to have happy lives before passing that torch of responsibility to the next generation of heroes. But eventually someone will fail and when they do it’s all over. I base this style shamelessly off Darkest Dungeon and Shadow of the Demon Lord, but it’s a style I rarely do unless my PCs are in the mood for some grimdark. I call this Lovecraft-lite since while everything may be screwed, there is something to be gained from opposing those ruinous forces. D&D settings I see working for this style are Midnight and Ravenloft.