40000 is the entire population of Tyr in some sources.
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Yes. Well, my other heresy is that the the population numbers provided in Dark Sun products are completely wrong and at odds with the general description of Athasian society.
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Given pretty much no one accepts those numbers, is it a heresy to do so anymore?
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I’ve seen plenty of people fight for those numbers. Usually they say there are more people living out in the fields surrounding the city states, which is true, but that does not explain the rich urban life that is in the cities proper.
For me, I just increase the population by a factor of ten within the cities themselves as a rule of thumb, with the exception of Gulg. And there are also other people living outside the cities of unspecified number.
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UNDEAD AS HEALERS OF ATHAS
What if the undead of Athas are actually sponsored by Athas itself?
I favor the idea of Athas being a living sentient being, but that’s another possible heresy. In any case, what if the Undead are animate crystallization of the death energy of Athas… an attempt to collect it and pull it out of Athas’ body so that it can stave off death, and maybe even return vitality to itself? This could explain why a nation of undead exists as I’ve read here and there.
Also it would change the nature of undead… instead of being a clerical thing, it would become a druidic thing on Athas, and also they wouldn’t attack normal living things or destroy them, but rather those that despoil and destroy and harm Athas. I suddenly have an image of a secluded garden with fluffy bunnies being carefully tended to by undead who value the life they no longer have.
Druids would consider it an honor to take into themselves the death energy of Athas, healing it by just that little bit more and become undead guardians which continue their self-appointed task of guardianship and restoration.
Undead would concentrate in areas where either defiling and such like is concentrated, or where the death energies of Athas are intense. They might even create mines seeking to find Nexus points and Ley Lines so that they can more directly absorb the negative energy out of Athas. In a weird way, they would then become allies with Avangions, The undead clean and purify by removing poisons and negative energy and the Avangions would then enrich, seed, and enliven the purified soils.
Undead would be ideal for going into the barren and possibly atmosphere-less portions of Athas. As undead become more powerful and reach a concentration of death energy and negative energy that start to become harmful to the environment around them, they are sent into space to orbit Athas and provide protection from the harsh energies of the Sun and potential incoming objects.
Someday, this collection of death and negative energies would become rings of orbiting undead in space, which could form protective shields around Athas to protect it from external threats, to stabilize the atmosphere, and to explore Dark-space for ice asteroids which formed from the atmosphere being blown off with the goal of returning them to Athas.
This is a very long term plan, obviously, probably something thought of by the Ghes-Utuil Whales of Athas… or someone similarly objective. @Kalindren
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Just copying this over from another thread into the heresy thread. If you really take the application of this story literally, then it could also explain some of the changes to the sun!
@nijineko I like your alternate take on undead.
Although I enjoy the fact that in RAW Dark Sun each individual Athasian undead is both unique and free-willed, the whole concept of undead seemed more applicable to classic fantasy than the science fantasy world of Athas. Further, they seems like a way to circumvent the resource limitations of Athas - crossing the sandy wastes? just employ an army of undead to carry all the water you’ll ever need. Put them in heavy armor so they can do all your fighting as well.
Here’s another alternate take - instead of being powered by the Negative Energy Plane (or wherever it is undead get their sustenance) give them a more sci-fi origin - a mad scientist is takeing corpses and reanimating them for whatever nefarious purpose -the Re-animator meets Universal Soldier.
I love this idea, thanks!
But wouldn’t the Order then just use the “Elans” as fodder for the Levy?
Happy to be of service 
But wouldn’t the Order then just use the “Elans” as fodder for the Levy?
Depends if they can make enough Elans quickly enough to supply the levy each and every year. More likely they can’t make a particularly large amount and the Order sees them better used as sleeper agents, compared to the relatively plentiful and resupplying populations of Athas. After all Elans are also guaranteed to be loyal assistants in the Order’s quest, so why waste their comparatively limited population when they can instead serve as invisible wardens over the seemingly endless civilian population? The Order doesn’t care about morality, they care about being pragmatic.
It’s also possible that Elans being artificial humans can’t serve the Levy’s purpose. Much like how a flesh golem probably wouldn’t work. Elans are artificial humans animated by constructs of psionic energy, so perhaps they lack a conventional soul and are more akin to outsiders.
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Yeah makes sense. The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. Adds a whole new potential depth to the whole Psionatrix affair.
I guess in this setup, everyone in the Order would have to know the real reason for the Levy, at least basic information about Rajaat, the role of the Sorcerer Monarchs, and the role of the Dragon, otherwise they would reject the whole thing as too evil. This would also allow for splinter factions that start to worship Rajaat, or don’t believe he ever existed, or just rebel against the levy regardless of the consequences. Conflicting values, the weight of tens of thousands of lives on their shoulders, it’s enough to make even the strongest adepts go mad. So many possible hooks!
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Are the dragon kings using magic and or psionics to subtly modify the populace? Granting heat resistance, reducing water intake, reducing food intake, increasing poison resistance, ncreasing reproductive ability?
Life shaping would be better at the job, but I don’t seem to recall any mention of a DK actually learning or using lifeshaping…
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Story of some Planewalker
Sit down, little berk, and listen this story, but don’t write down! Also don’t speak about this in Sigil. Or busybodies. Unless you want to be banned from Sigil forever… or worse…
You wondered, why Sigil is de facto prison for Lady of Pain? Why Lady is wroth, when somebody want worship to her person, but her acts is similar to god powers but without cultists and power of faith? And why gods cannot enter to Sigil?
Do you know other world, who is practical prison? Where gods cannot enter or work?
Correctly. Athas. Lady of Pain was overgod of Athas. Like Ao is overgod of Toril. And how Toril had „Time of Troubles” also Athas had similar event. Some god from Athas stole a some artifact of Lady so she deprived divinity of gods. And how Ao left Helm with his divinity to he still have role god-guardian, similar function had Rajaat.
Are you surprised? Yea. Because you hear only black legends about Rajaat? As one of the greatest villains of multiverse, on similar level of evil like a princes of demons? Bull shit! Here is true.
Weakened ex-gods of Athas acted differently than ex-gods of Toril. They collected great number of own believers, magic and other powers and went to fight. Rajaat defended a long time the Stairway to Heaven, leading to real genocide. Year by year next races, with their ex-gods, was exterminated. But even last god cannot win versus neverending offensives of rest of world. Nec Hercules Contra Plures, like a humans speak.
Lady of Pain could destroy all ex-gods, mortals and general world. Restart everything. But she didn’t do this. You ask why? I dont know. Maybe this was some order from council of overgods or there exist unknown law of multiverse locking this option? But I know, that Lady did close any external doors and inter-sphere portal, leaving Athas. I know laso, that humiliated between other overgods Lady of Pain was closed in Sigil. Personally I think, that she was sentenced to being prisoner-overseer of City of Doors. Form of humiliate but without real degradation.
Now you know why Lady of Pain could have permanently killed Aoskar and kick Vecna? Why can she limit divine powers in her kingdom-prison? Why she was brutal and ruthless during “Great Upheaval” and “Faction War”?
And what with Athas? Ex-gods, who survived, became a Sorcerer-Kings. With lesser power they couldn’t kill Rajaat, so unconscious last god was closed in old Divine Realm. Only he still have power of real god… and his fury growth. Ex-gods haven;t current power to new confrontation with Rajaat, even after millennia studies and gaining new powers. So one of them, Borys, work as guardian of Stairway to Heaven. Old Divine Realm, closing by every side, without great power of faith, transformed into a degenerate form. Without sacred flames, blessed glow and others this realm changed to Black. Rest of lesser beings changed to shadows. Rajaat still and still try open own prison, and make great revenge. Only he have real unlimited power, without quasi-vampiric magic, so the easier way to repair world would be help for Rajaat. But ex-gods made fake documents, hints etc. Even revolutionary leaders from Tyr believed this bundle of lies! Morons…
Souls also cannot leaving this world. So they wandered without goal, to losing own consciousness. By millenia empty souls merged into a collective existence, current knowed as Grey. Do Athas have own Bastion of Broken Souls? Maybe, I don’t know.
I also know, that only Lady of Pain have keys to unlock of Athas. But she don’t want to do this. You must remember one - Athas is world, where gods made war against overgod and THIS WAS REAL SOURCE OF CATASTROPHE! Gods cannot be overly proud. Next great war against overgods can be more worst…No other world should have the fate of Athas.
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That’s an interesting heresy Machal. It breaks all kinds of ‘lore rules’ in my head but I still like it!
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Thank 
I was concerned that the final effect would be worse. But it’s nice that someone liked it.
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That’s the fun of these “heresies”, getting to see what neat ways people can spin the existing lore .
What I’m curious about are what huge setting changes have people used for their campaigns or have gotten to PC in?
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I like it too. There’s something about the complete isolation of Athas from everything else in the multiverse which bugs me, and something like this makes a connection, albeit a thin one.
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What I’m curious about are what huge setting changes have people used for their campaigns or have gotten to PC in?
I hope, that in next, good and official version of DS, will be chapter “Athasian Heresies - Uncanonical versions of history”.
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This heat during this expedition was perhaps the hottest Ezra had ever felt all year. Just going from ruin to ruin was a struggle for him, up and down the cliff from one building to another dragging the master’s supplies became a monumental task. The crimson sun beat down mercilessly, even this high in the mountains it was almost unbearable. Ezra could not understand why Master Teodias was so intent on retrieving all of the tablets as soon as possible, rather than wait later in the day, after the noon sun began its descent. But as the dutifully apprentice, Ezra did his teacher’s bidding in the hopes of being rewarded with more instruction in the Way.
Ezra recalled the arduous trek up into the very cliffs of the Ringing Mountains all the way from Tyr. It had been nine days since they had left that city. On their first day out, things went well as they traveled past the verdant faro fields and into the scrub plains, and past the erdlu flocks tended by Tyrian herders.
They attempted to stick as close to the hills of the mountains but nature had other plans for them. On the second night, a fierce dust storm tore through their small caravan dispersing one of the supply wagons. We heard the screams of Onu and Ladis as they fell into a ravine crushed by the wagon itself, their lives extinguished. By morning sunrise we could see that their bodies had been devoured by the beasts of the wastes. On the fourth day, one of our guards, the scarred mul Ulvas, mentioned to Master Teodias, that he saw the markings of anakore dung. Upon that revelation we doubled our effort and pushed the kanks to their limit in order to leave the area. Eventually we arrived at the base of the cliffs where the map that Master Teodias indicated the ruins of a place called Jondoraal lay.
I trusted Master Teodias, but sometimes he relied too much on the veracity of former templars of Tyr who peddled in rare documents acquired from the King’s Libraries. His devotion to his scholarly group and their patron Amiska, was commendable and his loyalty was unshakeable.
“Ah here it is” called Teodias “we start digging in these ruins, if you find tablets, please let me know and go no further” he reminded me.
The guards uninterested in the work, remained at the lower base of the cliff.
“Master Teodias what do you hope to find in these ruins?” Ezra asked.
“Well young Ezra, the knowledge of the ancients has been lost not only to the wastelands, but also to the memory of the living. The tablets that my order has previously found, but of whose provenance I am still uncertain of, say that gods once existed on Athas. It is something that may hold a kernel of truth as my excursions to many of the cities and towns of the ancients that I have explored, have large ruined buildings near the center of the settlements dedicated to all manner of strange beings, each focusing on one philosophy or another. Much like that of the temples of the sorcerer-kings in some of our city-states, such as Draj and Raam.” Master Teodias recounted.
“You see I believe as some of the ancient tablets claim, that during the Green Age, Athas did have gods. Beings of immense power that provided their divine blessings for the devotion and faith of the people. They had priests and holy warriors who received divine power much like the elemental clerics of today.” He continued.
So where did they all go? Did … did they abandon us? Were they killed off? Ezra rattled off a series of questions.
Master Teodias replied “Hmm, it seems in these codices that someone called Lok-tanal the Loremaster claimed that a being called Rajaat, used an artifact of immense power for some unspeakable act, which shifted the metaphysical axis of the world. So much so, that Athas lost its alignment with the rest of the universe and the sun became the bloated and crimson thing we see today. Suddenly the gods went silent and no longer answered the prayers of priests or their adherents. Lok-tanal claimed that his colleague, Kalanthor, a powerful wizard, informed him that he was no longer able to see distant lands or travel into the other planes of existence. Apparently, it was something Lok-tanal also could no longer accomplish, even with the use of the Way.”
“Well, this all sounds like fanciful tales to me, master. There is no way this could be true. What else did this Kalanthor speak of?” Ezra asked skeptically.
“There is nothing else, other than Lok-tanal explaining that Kalanthor was recalled back to his kingdom at the request of his mentor Sacha of Arala. Master Teodias explained.
“Well, that’s not really much information. I don’t ever recall hearing of these names in our previous explorations.” Ezra continued to dig through the rocky soil and yelled excitedly . “Hah! I found another set of tablets master. I’m getting luckier by the minute”.
Master Teodias cleaned the dust off them as he reviewed the ancient script. “ahh, these are just accounting documents of the kingdom. You see here, scribes recounting a decrease in grain production, declining ore returns from mines, and livestock becoming sickly and dying.” He said, uninterested in the contents of the tablets. “take them as well. Lady Amiska always says ‘even a kernel of knowledge can lead to greater revelations.’ ” He added.
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The Pyreen were the Ancients, not the Halflings/Rhulisti. When the rebirth happened, the Pyreen decided to become caretakes of the world, leaving it to the younger races. However, later Rajaat came about in his usual backstory and like was obsessed with the past of the world and the Blue Age. Here, he insisted that the Pyreen should likewise strive to restore the Blue Age no matter the cost, that they should rule this world not these unworthy inheritors. However, he was widely rejected and thus considered even his fellows to be unworthy of the legacy.
Thus did he resolve to wipe out all races and then create a new Blue Age with a new race. And then everything else happens. Teaching Preserving and Defiling, Cleansing War, Red Age, Getting found out, Imprisonment, Dragon rampage ect.
Also, there were gods in Athas’ past, though they’re long dead. There were racial deities who died when all their people were genocided. Nature gods who died for obvious reasons. Also other gods who tried to fight but were killed by the Champions/Rajaat himself.
Same thing with Paladins. There used to be them, but they were all wiped out during the Red Age and now are just things of fairy tales. Perfect setup for a PC who want’s to be a new paladin.
Probably some other stuff I can’t remember off the top of my head…
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But idea “maybe once there were gods” isn’t heretical itself 
Eg. in “Dark Sun: Earth, Air, Fire and Water” we have few notes about the possibility of the existence of “old gods”.
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