The interesting part is that in the book Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas, starting at page 41, a lot of cool Kits (aka similar to 5E Traditions) were presented. Many Kits let you choose between Defiler or Preserver. So the “5E inclusive” way I see it:
Page 21 of the Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas states “There are no specialist wizards on Athas, though different types of spells are still classified by schools of magic. Due to the restrictions placed on magic over
the centuries, wizards have a hard enough time learning spells—and no opportunity or method for specializing in a certain field of study”
While I do agree that some kits do represent normal Traditions: Necromancer, Cerulean (Evocation), and Illusion. Nearly all of the other Kits would require a rework and custom set of rules as they do not represent any of the Traditions from the Player’s Handbook or other source books released thus far. The Defiler and Preserver traditions I have already elaborated upon would be the most common of the possibilities and excel at either Defilement or Preserving. As for the three that more closely relate to standard 5e (Necromancer, Cerulean/Evoker, and Illusion) they could be used easily and still have the option of the General Defilement Rules I presented in my link above. The other Kits however I will have to work on and come up with appropriate Tradition Abilities as I do not think they can even be reflavored from any of the standard 5e, which is fine in my opinion. Dark Sun has always stood apart from all versions of Dungeons and Dragons editions and standard rules and I intend to keep with the original format of Dark Sun. 4th Edition messed with alot of what made Dark Sun what it is to me. I would like to see something much closer to the Dark Sun I was introduced to when I was a kid and have always loved the limitations of class and race choices given in the original setting.
The big problem that I have with casting Preserving / Defiling as subclass choices is that it mechanically limits you to one path or the other. This makes it impossible to represent a character like Sadira (pre-sun-wizard), who toes the line and has been known to situationally defile when the need arises. That’s something that’s always been important to me.
Yes, you can look at D&P and take as gospel the idea that no specialist wizards exist. However, DS1 did not have any such restriction.
Dark Sun preservers are treated just as the mages
described in the Players Handbook. They may spe-
cialize freely. A preserver who has an Intelligence
score of 16 or higher gains a 10 percent bonus to
the experience points he earns. In all cases where the
rules here dont contradict them, the rules about
mages in the Players Handbook should be used.
– DSRB, page 28
Point being that specialization is a mechanical aspect of the system, and I prefer to gravitate towards representing the fiction, rather than figuring out how to represent the limitations of 2nd edition.
Falling back on the idea of subclasses to represent defiling and preserving not only cuts off the ability to represent parts of the established fiction, it also cuts off or complicates the impliementation of various magical subclasses for rogues and fighters, which I’d like to avoid.
After looking more into the DnP I made the decision to allow certain already established traditions to be renamed for flavor to represent some of the kits. Some of the traditions though I will be keeping out of the conversion. The other kits presented in DnP will eventually be converted (as time allows on my end). The current defiler rules I converted do allow for rogue, fighter, and other arcane possibilities. I still took defiler and preserver as the main two traditions for Wizard. In my version they are not limited to one or the other type of magic, but they excell at either Defiling or Preserving over the other Traditions and subclass choices that will be coverted. The link I had provided has the converted Preserver and Defiler Tradition but also has another link contained within the document for my version of General Defilement Rules which makes it clear that it is usable among all arcane classes and arcane sub-classes from Fighter and Rogue.
Just to give you guys more of an idea of what I have come up with for the Dark Sun to 5e Conversion.
Yes I converted Defilers and Preservers into an Arcane Tradition BUT I did not disallow the use of Defilement or Preservation to just these two traditions; They merely excel at one or the other. I decided after reading the D&P to allow the following traditions as well: Evoker (reflavored to Cerulean), Illusionist, and Necromancer. Defiler and Preserver I just look at as the most classic choice for a Dark Sun Wizard and they have unique abilities represented in the link I had provided above.
My conversion still allows the arcane subclasses for Rogues and Fighter; in addition I also allow Sorcerer and Warlock, both of which can benefit or suffer from the use of Defilement. I am mainly allowing these classes and choices to keep from limiting player choices too much.
Lastly to see my conversion for the General Rules on Defilement here is a separate link, which is actually contained within the first link I had posted. I am mainly placing it here on its own so you don’t have to dig through the other link for it.
Exiled_Architect’s General Defilment System/Gathering Spell Energy/Corruption Rules
Hi I was under the Impression that the only other plane connected to Athas are the Elemental planes? How would Warlocks be able to make pacts with Fiends if this is the case?
The ruling I gave for allowing those pacts is my own personal campaign guidelines, not to be used by just any DM or player. I allow fiend since I see the Black (a shadow plane that exists in Dark Sun) as a place were other extraplanar creatures could possibly exist as remnants of Ages Past or even manifest and/or be manifestations of the evil/corruption that has run rampant on Athas since time forgot. They dont necessarily even need to be Demons or Devils but could be the equivalent thereof, or even a shadow fiend/demon (which makes sense considering the Shadow energies that govern The Black).
Rajaat would qualify as he’s trapped in the Hollow, also there is the “Grey” plane or Fauge plane I forget exactly what its called but that may be cool. “Pact of the Ashling”?
So that is a real possibility as well. You could either create all new patron/s and pact/s or just refluff existing pacts for the same purpose. Also back to the fiend patrons. If I remember correctly certain Advanced Beings are labeled with the creature type “outsider” but never pinned down to a specific subtype. Theoretically one or more such advanced beings could have gained enough power to effectively become a Warlock Patron that could mimic any of the existing patron profiles.
In addition to the above revelations one could also effectively reflavor Warlock to be the 5e equivalent of the Templar class. It wouldnt take much to do so if you just renamed it. However you could take it a step further and tweak its starting proficiencies a bit to get it more in line with the original Templars abilities and skills
I was going to just swap out warlocks all together for Templars, and swap out sorcerers for psions as they are pretty similar
I am keeping sorcs as is in my campaign and using the Awaked Mystic psionic class from UA. I just feel like psions are to specialized in their powers to replace with sorcs, but thats just my opinion.
You can easily have a warlock with a demon pact instead of a devil pact.
I found one on the internet but have to find back where.
Explanation of why demon pact could be used by Warlock
For my 5th Ed conversion, I see wizards as choosing preserving or defiling each time with game benefits from long term choices. This is still pretty raw up to tweaking before I start running my DS campaign for 5E:
• Sanctity: Every Wizard has a Sanctity score from -10 to 10 but starts as 0. -10 means the wizard is a full-fledged defiler and has advantage on Intimidate skill rolls. +10 means the character is a full-fledged preserver and has advantage on Animal Handling skills. A wizard may lose Sanctity by defiling. A wizard may gain Sanctity by performing the Rite of Blood and other activities. Occasionally, situations may arise where a wizard may lose or gain sanctity outside of the reasons mentioned. Typically, a wizard may only gain or lose one Sanctity point per Long Rest. I may expand on this further for additional benefits beyond +10/-10
• Rite of Blood (this was actually mentioned in the original Wanderer’s Journal but not fleshed out): This ritual enables a wizard to partially or wholly restore an area of defilement. To do so, a Wizard takes half of their total Hit Points in damage as they literally bleed on the ground. After this, they sped ten minutes slowly drawing the energy from the plant life outside the defilement in an unharmful way. At the conclusion, a circle with a radius of the Wizards level in feet from the location of the Wizard is restored to vitality, grass sprouts from the ground (it is non magical and will die without water), and the Wizard gains a Sancity point. This rite may be redone after a Long Rest
• Power Drawing: In order to cast a spell, a wizard must draw power from the land to do so. The more lush an area is, the easier it is to draw power. A wizard may store half his/her Wizard level in spell power levels at a time.
• Defiling/Preserving Table (didn’t paste well), but basically, you draw power equal to half your Wizard level in Spell levels. The time it takes to do this varies on terrain and whether you are preserving or defiling (defiling is quicker), and finally a defiling radius should the Wizard defile based on terrain.
o Each subsequent drawing of power doubles the time as does the defilement radius expand. This is due to having to draw from further and further away. If a wizard moves to an area outside the original area, the time to draw is reset to the base
o Defiling also causes damage to Plant and Elemental creatures if in the defilement radius. A Plant or Elemental takes 1d10 damage per level of spell power drawn. Normal plants are destroyed.
o A defiler can continue to draw power from the ground as long as he wishes, expanding the radius. Additional power can be drawn for additional spells and the radius will expand accordingly. I think of this as a high that some defilers will do just because they are addicts.
I need to at some point sit down and note all the ideas I have for defiling magic and the wizards of Athas. So far, I have three concepts, from a simple (core mechanic that enables you to defile) to a complex (distinct classes, with their own subclasses).
In reply to the original poster:
I play and run D&D using simplified rules. For my Dark Sun setting, I have consolidated all (arcane) spell casters into one class - mages.
On Athas, it is known that magic uses life energy to manifest its effects. This energy is drawn from living plants, animals, creatures, and beings, the amount of which is controlled by the spell caster. From the history commonly understood by most inhabitants of Athas, the use of magic is explained as being the primary cause of why Athas has become the arid and desolate planet that it is. Mages and the use of (arcane) magic is, at best, taboo and held with the highest suspicion and detestation in the wilds, while decreed forbidden by the sorcerer-kings and punishable by death in the city-states.
Suffice to say, (arcane) magic is not looked upon favorably in nearly all reaches of Athas. Those who learn and study the intricacies of using magical energy remain in hiding, performing the use of such misunderstood power only in extreme circumstances, or when its use is warranted to relieve the suffering or pain of another.
Magic is naturally unbalanced - it cannot simply be harnessed and used as one desires, although mages are able to control the means in which they draw the energy from life to fuel their spells.
Defiling magic desecrates life and pulls an unrestrained amount of energy from any life source in the immediate area, including the caster. This energy draw gives the spell its ability to produce its effect, but does so at a cost to the caster. The caster who uses defiling magic must roll a CON save to reduce the amount of damage caused to themselves in allowing defiling magic to surge through their body and thus draw from their own life energy. A successful save still causes 1d4 damage per spell level to the caster, while a failed save results in 1d8 damage per spell level to the caster.
The other effects of life defiling magic is that it causes plants to wither, turn black or grey, and turn into an ash-like substance; it frightens small animals and causes large animals to become unnerved, while also causing creatures and beings to become momentarily light-headed or nauseous.
Casting a defiling spell also costs double the spell slot.
In contrast to defiling magic is preserving magic, which draws only minor amounts of energy from many different life sources in order for the spells’ effects to not cause anyone or anything calculable damage. The caster who attempts to cast a spell by preserving life does so with Disadvantage. If the preserving magic attack succeeds, the spell’s full effect occurs without cost of extra spell slots, or damage to the caster.
In short, all mages cast the same (arcane) spells, but they do so through either defiling or preserving magic; it becomes a choice at the moment of casting. Defiling magic causes damage to the caster and costs double spell slots; preserving magic spares the caster self-inflicted damage or spell slots, but attacks at a Disadvantage, or with a penalty.
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how to approach this conversion in a pair of Dark Sun 5e campaigns that I’m running! There are a lot of ways you could go about it, as mentioned above. Ultimately, I want my 5e games to allow for some wizard traditions, and have the following goals for defiling rules (preserving I intend to open as a later option, as learning about preserving magic is going to be a significant part of the story):
Simple to play at the table, using the spirit of 5e mechanics
Empowered Defiling is a choice the characters make to empower their spells, with meaningful consequences, and built in mechanics for addiction.
Regular spellcasting is, by default, defiling to a small extent – but can be handled narratively and situationally rather than by introducing additional tables for terrain types. The main reason for this is to stick to the faster-paced, narrative style of 5e mechanics. As much as I personally love the crunch of 2e, most of my players prefer the faster/lighter play of 5e, as that what’s they are most familiar with.
To that end, the plan is to eventually unveil defiling/preserving feats that allow for greater control over magic – but to allow empowered/addictive defiling to be a choice any arcane spellcasters (not just wizards) can make immediately at level one. So here is what I went with for base defiling rules:
When a character casts an arcane spell, they may choose to defile an area centered on them that is equal to 5 feet per spell level (minimum of 1). Any plantlife in the defiled area withers, and fertile soil is turned ashen. If there is not an adequate amount of plantlife in the defiled area, all creatures within the area must make a Constitution saving throw or take 1d6 necrotic damage per level of the spell cast . If no creatures fail their saving throw, the spell fails. Defiling allows the caster to do one of the following:
- Cast a spell without paying its material component costs
- Cast a spell with a +2 bonus to attack rolls and Spell Save DC
- Cast a spell at as though it were one level higher than the spell slot spent
- Cast a spell (up to 5th level) and immediately regain the spell slot spent to cast it
After defiling, the caster receives a +1 bonus to ability checks (cumulative up to +3). That bonus is reduced by 1 per hour, and when it ends the caster gains a level of exhaustion (magical withdrawal).
For what it’s worth, my simple approach is: defiling allows you to cast spells without consuming spell slots; instead, you destroy plant life around you in a radius similar to that described in the original & updated AD&D settings books. The radius from which you can draw power increases as a function of your highest available spell level (at the moment I’m going with 2x), so that you can potentially defile to cast 2–3 of your highest level spells before you run out of available plant life (thus sacrificing your ability to cast lesser spells).
There are a few reasons for this fairly simplistic approach:
Defiler vs. Preserver shouldn’t be an option chosen during character creation or at 2nd/3rd level, etc. The preservers don’t learn a different type of magic—they simply exercise a level of self-control and caution that defilers typically do not.
It should always be possible for a preserver to fall to defiling, and for a defiler to find redemption. Using different classes or preset items such as a faster spell-level progression makes it difficult to move between defiling and preserving, making these types of character evolution difficult if not impossible to perform.
Getting a re-roll on an existing spell as in 4e isn’t tempting. The faster level progression of 2e is moderately tempting, but isn’t a thing in 5e, and falls foul of rule 2 above (e.g. a level 10 preserver becomes a defiler—do they retcon their abilities? Gain new spell levels?). In 3e, defiling lengthens the casting time of a spell in return for a +1 bonus to caster level. While helpful, this isn’t tempting except in quite particular circumstances (if I was a level higher, I’d do 6d6 damage instead of 5d6).
To match the idea that defiling is the lazy option, it shouldn’t take more effort, it should take less. That rules out the 3e mechanic of increasing spell casting time. If we take the 2e revised rulebook’s idea of wizards fetching and storing their power at dawn, then defiling would be drawing energy at the time the spell is cast, true. But that shouldn’t take a noticeable amount of extra time: the defiler isn’t being careful, they’re reaching down, grabbing, and pulling with all their might, paying little attention to the amount they’re gathering. It’s a quick, almost reflexive action—they open their palm to the ground and cast the spell, acting as a conduit between the ground and the spell effect. The fact that they can do it quickly is a benefit of defiling, making it more tempting.
As a corollary to rule 4, it might be worth saying that preservers need do take additional time to cast their spells, as they are consciously monitoring the power they’re drawing as a discrete mental task.
A friend of mine played a Templar in a 4e game, and used arcane defiling in the middle of Urik. That character drew a lot of attention. The sorcerer-kings don’t tolerate other defilers, and will hunt them down. This means that over-using the great powers given by the no-spell-slots rule for defilers will certainly land them in trouble; players will have to be careful to choose the right time for using this ability.
Overall, these rules have rather worked out well. My main intention was to make preservers really think hard about the defiling option, and I’ve seen that happen. I’ve seen characters grow by developing conflicts between preservers and defilers on the same team. One spellcaster takes care to arrange their spell slots for an upcoming battle, and another just throws out high-level spells one after the other, bam-bam-bam. It’s fantastic to see.
I like what you are saying here. Presently, my thought is to simply lengthen the casting time of a Preserver spell by one round to allow for the careful drawing of power, OR the Preserver can opt to use more of their will/focus in the form of a higher level spell slot to cast the same round. That’s it. Of course, my campaign is set in a Dark Sun future where Defilers are openly hunted around all the free cities, so there are heavy social consequences for crossing that line.
I’ve been thinking something along the same lines recently, after re-reading Amber Enchantress. In that book, any time Sadira defiles it notes that she takes more time to pull more energy, so I was actually thinking that the times would be reversed—one bonus action to draw just enough energy, a full action to defile. At some point, you would become better at defiling and be able to pull in lots of energy in just a bonus action.
I´m planning to use a small dark sun one shot (that means one sesion only, or maybe two if needed) in my campaign, as the main campaign is in the green days before the cataclism
i plan to start all characters as preservers, instead of a confusing rule, i just use the following, when a character is near death (1/3 hitpoints or less) is tempted to save his or her life by using defiler magic, to reflect this a character roll a concentration check (the DC is the same as the spell cast), if he or she fails , he or she defile, and need to perform the blood rite (a painful ritual) in 24 hours or asume the taint
In addition, if a character defiles is subject to the ire of most people, who kills defilers on sight
And a character can opt to call for a defiling at any time
i choose to use wizards and other arcane oriented clases as preservers, sorcerers as defilers and warlocks as templars, so when a player defile can use a metamagic only avaliable to sorcerers as a bonus
Only patrons avaliable are the sorcerer kings, but i am considering adding the black -who somewhat mirrors the shadowfell and the grey - who somewhat mirrors the feywild, even in athas there are no feys - but in that case that magic are ALSO forbidden by the sorcerers kings
In addition i plan to use an INCAN themed sorcerer king, instead of the already known sorcerer kings, i gather SERIOUSly info of the andean mythos (not mezoamerican ones) and will post them later