Important Women of Athas (or Lack thereof)

[Rhal-othan (Rui Lourenco)]

@Bdmdragon

The differences in between how men and women are portrayed, written about, and interact with the world are stark in every d&d setting (and most fantasy settings), Dark Sun included. Several of the examples you just listed are more than a little problematic, to put it mildly.

I gave up on the fiction after the first book, so my impressions are based on the original boxed set, what I’ve read recently in 2e adventure modules and what I’ve read on Athas.org. I’m going to try to guess where the problems are and please feel free to educate me.

1. Only 2 out of 7 Sorcerer Monarchs are female? No idea know how that compares to Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.

2. Abalach-Re presented as ineffectual. All I can say to that is I’m happy to see that most of the people on Athas.org have a much greater appreciation for Abalach-Re and see her at least an equal to any of the other SKs. If I remember right, she’s also the only SM to make an appearance in 2 modules, if appearing in a module counts for anything.

3. Lalali-Puy presented as too sexual (?). On the positive side she was the only SM that was actually loved by her people. But Gulg never seemed like one of the heavy hitters in terms of city states.

In terms of character development, I don’t recall that any of the SM’s had any sort of in-depth character development in the original boxed set.

[Bdmdragon]

@Rhal-othan

I gave up on the fiction after the first book, so my impressions are based on the original boxed set, what I’ve read recently in 2e adventure modules and what I’ve read on Athas.org. I’m going to try to guess where the problems are and please feel free to educate me.

Actually, the first boxed set and thus the 4e reboot based on it aren’t particularly bad, besides the 2e box set Abalach-Re being ineffective. My concerns are more about the rest of Dark Sun continuity being full of well developed male characters but seemingly forgetting about half the population, the lack of women in historically prominent roles, etc.

@Rhal-othan

Only 2 out of 7 Sorcerer Monarchs are female? No idea know how that compares to Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.

The problem is less the 2 out of 7 and more the 3 (Sielba, also hyper sexualized) out of 13 (15+ if you include champions and not just Sorcerer Monarchs) and how little development they get. A similar ratio applies to other similar positions of power or historical figures in Dark Sun.

I don’t feel qualified to speak for Greyhawk, but Forgotten Realms is pretty lousy with respect to developed, interesting women. However, it also has a lot more prominent women in general, so through sheer volume there are a number of interesting and developed ones, as opposed to barely any. (It’s still not great)

This touches on more of a fantasy issue in general however, so I’ll keep it to Athas for now.

@Rhal-othan

Abalach-Re presented as ineffectual. All I can say to that is I’m happy to see that most of the people on Athas.org have a much greater appreciation for Abalach-Re and see her at least an equal to any of the other SKs. If I remember right, she’s also the only SM to make an appearance in 2 modules, if appearing in a module counts for anything.

Absolutely. The 4e reboot also took this track, which helped a lot.

@Rhal-othan

Lalali-Puy presented as too sexual (?). On the positive side she was the only SM that was actually loved by her people. But Gulg never seemed like one of the heavy hitters in terms of city states.

Aside from the art (which to be fair, oversexualised female character art is hardly a Dark Sun specific trend) and one brief line in an adventure, Lalali-Puy is actually one of the less overtly sexualized and (unrelatedly) one of the most interesting SM’s. Lynn Abbey is the only writer to have explicitly sexualized Lalali-Puy, but wow, she did so in a spectacularly weird fashion that has had me scratching my head for literally years.

[Killer_DM (Robert Druschitz)]

You guys are only focusing on extreme high level here.

Think of the women in Dune Traders. All the decent PC pregens. The female thri-kreen (tohr-kreen?) in the Order in Dragon’s Crown. The NPCs in the Veiled Alliance, etc, etc…

The majority seem to be cast in a negative light (I haven’t tallied anything myself as of this post), but to be honest alignment at the 2E-2.5E times was starting to get blurred as is… and it ain’t like there’s paladins running about on Athas.

[Kalakoftyr]

When you say Lynn Abbey sexualized Lalali-puy in a strange way do you mean that throwaway line where Hamanu says she killed the ogres by having sex with all the males?

I thought Kalak killed the ogres by the way.

As for the line. If that’s what you mean I don’t think Hamanu was being serious. I always took that line as an insult to show just how little he thought of her Army or combat abilities. That the only way she could have succeeded was to use her sexuality since she has no other skills of note be they magical or psionic.

[Bdmdragon]

@Kalakoftyr

If that’s what you mean I don’t think Hamanu was being serious. I always took that line as an insult to show just how little he thought of her Army or combat abilities. That the only way she could have succeeded was to use her sexuality since she has no other skills of note be they magical or psionic.

Oh, he was undoubtably disparaging. However, he did not actually say that line to someone, rather, it was his internal thoughts on how she’d accomplished her goal, which makes it look a lot more like he was being literal.

Normally I’d still agree with your assessment, but given that everything else he said about her is shown to be true in the context of Rise and Fall (about her relative power, her temperament, and her being a fool juxtaposed with her making a really dumb suggestion on how to deal with Rajaat in the past), and that her first words to him in the book were both explicitly said seductively and strongly hint at them having had a closer relationship of some sort in the past, I’m actually not convinced that this wasn’t Lynn Abbey’s interpretation of her character.

@Kalakoftyr

I thought Kalak killed the ogres by the way.

You would be correct, probably, but Lynn Abbey didn’t know that.

Lynn Abbey’s notes made it clear she wasn’t given access to everything, and had to make up some things to fill the gaps in what she knew. We can discuss how canon Rise and Fall should be, but elements of it were certainly seen as cannon in the 3e conversion by this site.

[redking]

Nibenay has a healthy respect/rivalry with the Oba. This question goes unanswered still, by the way.

@redking

What are the stats for the necklace of Lalali-Puy, from the Asticlian Gambit adventure?

In it the Shadowking Nibenay claims that the necklace can “double” Lalali-Puy’s psionic and magical powers.

"“You have been duped, foolish mortals,” it says in a voice that combines amusement and contempt. “The necklace you brought to Lalali-Puy, may zhakals feed upon

[Kalindren (Stuart Lynch)]

There are no stats. It’s a plot device. In the 2E campaign I played in, our DM ruled that it would have made her a 42nd lvl Defiler and 42nd lvl Psionicist - quite literally doubling her existing stats as a stage I dragon.

If you take the 3.X rules, that doesn’t make her so hard as spell/power progression caps out at lvl 20 and thence relies on feats for increased casting/manifestation. I suppose you could rule it functions as a unique ring of wizardry/psionics doubling all her spell slots, psi points and doubling her caster/manifester level. That’s something Borys would have feared.

[nijineko (nijineko prismaticpsion)]

@Sysane

Unfortunately the focus back in the day was crunch over fluff.

Don’t knock my crunch dude, that’s what makes story interesting. Without crunch, story is bland. It’s what you can’t do that makes the plot move forward more than what you can do.

and in any case, I’m the crunch guy, so I’ll work with you on harmonizing fluff and crunch, but I refuse to allow fluff to dominate crunch… and for that matter it’s no good if crunch dominates fluff either, since either extreme leads to failure. Both are needed in balance.

[Sysane (Bryan Bock)]

I was just as guilty developing crunch over fluff as anyone back then.

Athas.org folks were just timid in advancing the setting beyond what was already laid out by TSR/WotC. I believe it had to do with the licensing agreement on what could be produced.

[Kalakoftyr]

Also speaking of important women. Wasn’t the first image of dark sun ever produced by Brom that painting of Neeva? In a way she was the inspiration for the whole setting.

[NPC_X]

Ooh, another great thread!

Throwing my two cents in: I don’t have a problem with the characterisation of the female SMs, but rather with how certain traits are exclusive to them. I don’t think Lalali-Puy’s and Sielba’s sensuality is bad - it’s more that no male SM shares it aside, maybe, from Niblenay. Let’s… Not think about it. Similarly, it’d be much easier to stomach Abalach-Re’s ineffectual rule if she weren’t the only ineffectual SM (among those that count. Daskinor… Yeah. He exists.)

@nijineko

So, do the females of Athas fall under the Conan sterotype? (seductive sorceress or hapless hanger-on were the two main types, iirc.)

In a way, it feels like personalities and roles were handed out based on sex. Just talking about SMs from the original box - on female side, we’ve got:

• Lalali-Puy (a motherly nurturer archetype)
• Abalach-Re (an ineffectual female boss who hides behind higher authority)
• Sielba (for what I can say, an evil sorceress-seductress archetype).

On the male side, we’ve got…

• Kalak (a compulsive tyrant archetype)
• Tec ( a neurotic archetype who drowns his insecurities in blood)
• Hamanu (a brute with might-makes-right mentality)
• Niblenay (a power behind the throne who seems incapable of wielding his power in an open, ‘manly’ fashion; a scheming impotent archetype)
• Andropinis (a male demagogue who rules with an iron fist while giving his subjects an illusion of freedom)

To sum it up: Male SMs seem to either project a strong image while they’re consumed by insecurities; much of their actions revolve around either displays of power or compulsive hiding from judgement. Female SMs are nurturers, manipulators, care a lot about their public image and are generally less effective. They enjoy their long lives more, but they don’t project nearly as much power.

This all feels just so… Bound by sex and gender. SMs are who they are because of their chromosomes, not personalities. You don’t get a male SM who pursues his appetite for life or a female tyrant SM who rules her CS with an iron fist. You don’t get a male manipulator who are loved by their subjects or a female monster who’ll rip your heart off with her bare hands.

That said, I’m strongly opposed to the idea of injecting more women into the setting for the sake of it. Rather, we need more characters with good, non-archetypical/stereotypical characterisation.

[Bdmdragon]

@Kalakoftyr

speaking of important women. Wasn’t the first image of dark sun ever produced by Brom that painting of Neeva? In a way she was the inspiration for the whole setting.

I’m going to be polite and simply state that this might be the weakest argument I’ve heard today.

@NPC_X

This all feels just so… Bound by sex and gender.

I agree. It isn’t necessarily a terrible thing by itself, but at the very least more fleshing out is required, and a few more unusual examples would be appreciated. In fact, I concur with your entire post up until the very last paragraph…

@NPC_X

That said, I’m strongly opposed to the idea of injecting more women into the setting for the sake of it.

Acknowledging a problem, then saying you are opposed to doing anything about it, is tantamount to saying the problem is unimportant at best. Characters are rarely, if ever, added merely for the sake of it. They have a role and reason.

@NPC_X

Rather, we need more characters with good, non-archetypical/stereotypical characterisation.

These things are neither exclusive with each other nor with your sentence above. Why do you assume that female characters added to the setting will automatically have poor characterization? TSR’s mistakes do not have to be athas.org’s, nor any GM running the setting with ideas from here.

[NPC_X]

@Bdmdragon

Acknowledging a problem, then saying you are opposed to doing anything about it, is tantamount to saying the problem is unimportant at best.

Thank God I did no such thing.

@Bdmdragon

Characters are rarely, if ever, added merely for the sake of it.

My experience says otherwise, unfortunately.

Sorry, I probably just spend too much time in various art and writing communities. These people post their creations online, and the prevalent mood in that community is… Paranoid, to say the least. I know a lot of people who get bashed on the basis of their characters’ chromosomes. They (and their peers) tend to inject such characters into their works just to protect themselves from further attacks.

Then, I know people who cynically exploit the gender sensitivity as though it was a fad. They inject their stories with such characters in hopes it’ll trick the audience into liking them. Thankfully, it doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t stop them from trying, and even from trying to convince others it’s the right thing to do.

I have a (somewhat automatic) habit to call out against such behaviour. You’re right, though: This probably doesn’t apply to the role-playing community. What we do generally doesn’t get judged by randoms on the internet (unless we stream).

@Bdmdragon

Why do you assume that female characters added to the setting will automatically have poor characterization?

With all due respect, I make no such assumption in any part of that paragraph. Don’t put words in my mouth, please.

[Bdmdragon]

@NPC_X

With all due respect, I make no such assumption in any part of that paragraph. Don’t put words in my mouth, please.

Okay, but this paragraph…

@NPC_X

That said, I’m strongly opposed to the idea of injecting more women into the setting for the sake of it. Rather, we need more characters with good, non-archetypical/stereotypical characterisation.

…certainly gives the appearance that that is what you are saying (you wrote it as an exclusive statement with the Rather. i.e. deliberately seeking to add more female characters necessitates that they are archetypal/stereotypical).

I apologize if that is not what you are saying. I was responding to how it looked, as I understand English.

As I said, I agree with you on almost every count.

[Kalakoftyr]

I appreciate you being polite Bdmdragon. I believe importance can come in multiple forms. Dark Sun was the first setting TSR produced that was inspired by a single artist’s work. Let’s be real most people don’t think of dollar or baxa when thinking about dark sun art.

The art was what the setting was based on. Neeva was the first painting Brom made for the setting. A very muscular woman holding a trikal. She was clearly a warrior and not a sex object. Yes she’s wearing the armour bikini but for nearly all of Brom’s art both men and women wear very skimpy clothing. It’s even mentioned on 1d4chan about Athas how everyone wears female fantasy armour on this world.

Clearly Brom felt inspired by this image and in turn his art influenced and directed Denning and Brown. So I repeat in a way Neeva is far more important than just her role in the prism pentad.

[Bdmdragon]

@Kalakoftyr

Dark Sun was the first setting TSR produced that was inspired by a single artist’s work. Let’s be real most people don’t think of dollar or baxa when thinking about dark sun art.

I agree with Brom’s importance as an artist, but I feel it is more than a bit of stretch to say that Neeva (the character) is important because her art (as made by Brom) was important to setting the tone of the setting. I feel these are two separate things, same as I separated above how Lalali-Puy was portrayed in art (virtually naked all the time) vs as a character.

@Kalakoftyr

She was clearly a warrior and not a sex object. Yes she’s wearing the armour bikini but for nearly all of Brom’s art both men and women wear very skimpy clothing.

I’m not entirely sure I agree, but I’m also not going to disagree outright. Let’s just call it a point of contention.

@Kalakoftyr

Clearly Brom felt inspired by this image and in turn his art influenced and directed Denning and Brown. So I repeat in a way Neeva is far more important than just her role in the prism pentad.

Agree with the first. As I stated above, I’m not sure the second follows.

[redking]

@Bdmdragon

Why do you assume that female characters added to the setting will automatically have poor characterization?

I actually think it’s a fair assumption. Inspiration comes first. Forcing something sans inspiration will lead to bad characterization. I think it’s reasonably clear that Lynn Abbey writes male characters better than she does the females. I don’t know why, but that is so. I recently read Sanctuary, a Thieves World book by Abbey, and that reinforces my opinion. Doesn’t mean that there are no female characters - there are.

Or take the The Lies of Locke Lamora series of novels by Scott Lynch. You can tell Scott really wants to make his characterization of the female protagonists work, but it doesn’t. He just doesn’t know women and it shows.

The inspiration comes before everything else. If not you end up making comic book characters like Snowflake and Safespace that are indistinguishable from parody.

[Star-Sage (of Balic)]

I always saw Dark Sun as largely inspired by John Carter of Mars and Conan the Barbarian. Both were settings of manly men and scantily clad women. So I’d say it’s a safe bet that yeah, female characters aren’t as prominent as male characters in Dark Sun. Personally I think you could make that same argument with a lot of older RPGs, but that’s a discussion for another time.

That being said I’ve used a fair number of female characters in my campaigns. One of which was Sprinkets, a Derro scientist from a spelljammer that got stranded on Athas, but she might not be the best example. She was however the group’s most beloved nemesis so I felt she was worth a mention.

I depict thri-kreen as matriarchal, with females as the larger and more aggressive gender (only, unlike mantids, they don’t eat the males. Since they are a sapient species and not THAT savage).

The matriarch of a noble house in Tyr is secretly allied with the Veiled Alliance and trying to help push Tyr closer towards being a Republic (ran exclusively by the nobility, but hey baby steps). She served as the sponsor for a lot of the PCs’ shenanigans around Tyr… when they weren’t helping out Dune Traders or the Templar.

Sielba, the Sorcerer Queen of Dead Yaramuke is in hiding, ruling over a secret realm of the Athasian Underdark filled with Green Age ruins. She was a wild card I kept and is meant as a campaign hook and some foreshadowing with weird ruins. She is driven by a combination of her hate for Hamanu as well as her fear of losing everything a second time. I depict Yaramuke as having been akin to Babylon with Sielba as the merchant queen of the SMs who thought her wealth and alliances would allow her to muscle in on Uruk’s territory. But Hamanu was far better at war than Sielba realized and she knew he was one of the best.

Abalech-Re I depict as a very competent sorcerer queen who is simply so bored she allows all the problems in her city to occur, she could fix Raam at any time, but this keeps her vaguely entertained. It’s only when the PCs accomplish the conspiracy to assassinate Kalak that she sits up and begins to care about things again. I depict her as on one hand being one of the more pragmatic and reasonable of the SMs, yet also fiendishly clever and treacherous with an unrivaled sense of self preservation.

Lalali-Puy I depict as genuinely thinking she’s the hero of her own story, having discovered an alternative to defiling. Through the use of human sacrifice she is able to fuel the growth of vegetation around her kingdom in a twisted reversal of defiling. These sacrifices also provide her and her royal defilers with life energy for their magic. This is a variation of dragon magic channeled through rituals to allow lesser defilers to make use of the life energy of humanoids. Lalali-Puy is convinced she can rebuild Athas this way and a lot of druids and nature spirits agree with her…

I depict the villichi as oracles as much as warriors, playing them up as a mysterious folk that might be the next step in evolution.

The Shadow Tribe of the elves I also depict as having female leadership as a subtle nod to the drow, along with a few spider species they make use of as guardians and assassination tools (as well as harvest poison and webbing from). Though that’s where the similarities end.

Finally I do have actual amazons in my setting that live in the southern portions of the Forest Ridge. Their’s is a rather complicated story, but the short version is they are mesoamerican themed warrior women that stumbled upon life shaped ruins that they have been partially able to revitalize through druidic magic and human sacrifice. In doing so the life shaped ruins are able to grow and/or give birth to various life shaped items.

[Kalakoftyr]

I find your idea of Sielba running a hidden underground city very cool. If I didn’t already introduce her to my campaign rebuilding Yaramuke I’d probably steal that.( Stolen with the utmost respect of course lol)

Unlike Lynn Abbey I portray Sielba as a hauntingly beautiful woman who looks like the classic image of a Geisha. They call her the porcelain lady. But despite her beauty she is not alluring in the slightest. She is a predator and unsettles those around her. Everyone around her is potentially prey and on an instinctive level they know it. Now she does have a servant Defiler yuan-ti woman who is the opposite. She’s your typical sex object seductress who focuses on a lot of enchantment and mind control magic.

[nijineko (nijineko prismaticpsion)]

@Star-Sage

I depict thri-kreen as matriarchal, with females as the larger and more aggressive gender (only, unlike mantids, they don’t eat the males. Since they are a sapient species and not THAT savage).

I always went with an Oligarchy for the Thri-Kreen, since they band together in a clutch system, it made sense to me for them to treat clutches as a grouped entity. Thus the minimum size of any position of importance in my version of the kreen is the clutch. Makes for an interesting dynamic when players are attempting to roleplay with the kreen, since they have to convince an entire clutch of anything.

Especially if there happens to be an elf among the party… “You cannot bribe us with food, but perhaps we can all sit down for a nice discussion of our differences over lunch…”