I don’t see Nibenay very concerned about Dregoth, at least from a military perspective. The troops Dregoth can bring to the table would be snuffed out by any city state’s army, even Gulg. Even without some of the demographic “improvements” I made which used the population numbers for the city states and free persons living within the city walls only, Gulg still had nearly three times the number of people as Dregoth.
The danger is Dregoth himself, all of the remaining sorcerer monarchs would need to fight him and in doing so they would certainly lay waste to a large area, likely wipe out any city they fought near, and still have a decent chance of losing to him.
As it happens I ran through a number of invasion scenarios in the later years after Dregoth’s Ascension, and Nibenay as well as the other city states all had to build up armies quickly to fight off a Genasi invasion and a Githyanki invasion a couple years later. Several of the same things you identified are similar to what I ran with. I don’t think Nibenay would try to build a silt fleet though, it’s to close to Dregoth are to far from his own supply lines.
One thing all the sorcerer monarchs are keenly aware of, even before Dregoth’s attempt at godhood, the tablelands are in a very delicate balance. Dragons of any stage are a bit paranoid of anyone near their level of power and the others will gang up on anyone who tries to grab more. Nibenay may have grand plans, but he would have to hide any kind of buildup from the entirely of the tablelands. The other sorcerer monarchs have spies everywhere and will not tolerate a threat.
Yes. If Gallard is a stage IV dragon and Dregoth is stage IX (and undead), that’s very true. Especially as Nibenay is likely the next most individually powerful SK. I see Nibenay as having the knowledge and sacrifices available for the next several stages of the transformation only held back by his hatred of the loss of personal control the process risks. With Dregoth approaching I think he’d risk one stage with the aid of Siemhoek (he was planning to wait longer to leverage her psionic power more originally, after all what’s a decade here or there to him) as circumstance pushes him. I see him succeeding without ravaging his subjects but not risking further stages for at least a century or two whilst he assimilates.
That said, Dregoth troops are worth a bit more generally than the run of the mill of the other SKs and he has access to quite alot of undead to supplement them should he choose to. I see him seizing the dead of Bodach to add to his armies. For the most part these are recyclable and expendable and roughly equal the numbers of living troops he commands. Though weaker than most opponents Dregoth and his commanders are uniquely placed to leverage their advantages and resist turning attempts. Control isn’t really sizable from him like it is when most other SKs use substantial hordes of revenants against each other, less limited by numbers of loyal necromancers available. With numbers roughly equal or even in Nibenays favour the advantage should be Dregoths. This doesn’t account for any allies or aid from the Deadlands he may receive (which may be a follow up development to contend with).
Both sides have advantages. Nibenay has more variety and flexibility with some elites. Probably more numbers too. Dregoth has a higher general quality with the dray and more uniformity, making them easier to manage and supply. The undead are generally lower quality but recyclable, disposable and unbreakable.
I think #2 is highly likely but will take time to bear fruit.
I think #3 would kind of happen by accident but be inevitable. Without the Gulgans to train the army against, pushing back the bandits and Gith is an obvious thing to do. Bonuses to trade are a sweetener. With so much military expansion it’s likely sooner rather than later. Unexpected success finding the iron deposits! Shake up the Tyr trade (but surprisingly little. There’s such a trade deficit for it, that a glut of supply will still be vastly outstripped by demand and it takes time to develop and industrialise)! Massive impact for Nibeneese trade and military (which could nicely suck up much of the initial supply).
#1 I think would kind of happen but not with males (as such). There’s no real need. Gallard can suck up some more women to his templarate (especially without Borys’ levy) and add more men to his officer corps within the army, leaving them subject to the Temple without muddling the lines.
I think Gulgs population may dwarf that of Guistenal but don’t think its military does, which is relatively even I’d guess. Most Dray are militarized, giving very little civilian population so the military numbers may be about the same (ignoring undead legions).
I agree that Nibenays military dwarfs that of the Guistenal … regulars. Which is why I’d mote or less double them with undead. Dregoth is in much more of a position to take advantage of this labour than most and adding then to his forces would he simple. They weren’t really relevant during the ascension, but would he during any military action.
Yes it’s Dregoth that’s the major danger, but that’s not somewhere Gallard can directly compete right now. Even if he advances a stage he’s woefully outmatched.
I agree that a silt fleet is the least likely thing. But it’s cool. ♂ It’s definitely longer term and only really works if control can be maintained over the Black Spjne mountains (a fairly natural foam anyway). It becomes much more likely if the iron deposits are discovered and exploited. Cliff gliders for recon would also help but aren’t required. It’s still far and away the furthest stretch though.
Not sure Nibenay really does have to hide his build up much though. He’s the most powerful individual SK (sans Dregoth). There’s rapprochement with Gulg (who are too weak to object anyway). Raam is gone. Tyr is gone. Balic is indisposed. Draaj is gone. Urik is distant and still maintains a much stronger military anyway. Others have to take care of Nibenay, he takes care of himself.
What people overlook, or forget, is that Dregoth has a devil battalion at his disposal. That easily helps balance the scales with the Nibenay vs Dregoth arms race.
Cool, missed that. That’s ideal really. Makes him much more of a threat (beyond his person). Which book is it in DR or CbtSS? How many in the battalion? What kind of devils? What happens to them if they’re slain whilst on Athas?
Certainly, the residents of Athas aren’t set up to or experienced in dealing with fiends (except Daskinor perhaps) though they may find the natives tougher than expected…
In the 3.5 version of the Planar Gate by Athas dot org the Planar Gate will not allow itself to be used for harmful purposes. I’m not sure where that comes from because I don’t remember that being the by in CbtSS.
Edit: It’s from Psionic Artifacts of Athas. It even calls out Dregoth’s devil army plan as something that the Planar Gate would reject.
Depending on how you handle planar travel through the Gray that might be possible. I do a 100 DC Spellcraft check to plane shift to the Great Wheel + 10 DC per accompanying individual.
I believe that was the result of game designer error. There was also confusion about the status of the elemental planes. Some designers thought that Athas was cut off from the outer planes, but you could access the outer planes from the inner planes. If that is the case, then traffic to and from the outer planes is nothing but a trivial inconvenience.
I choose the general principle of the setting. Athas is isolated. The elemental planes of Athas are isolated for the same reason Athas is isolated. That is, the Gray separates Athas and the elemental planes of Athas from the rest of the multiverse. That makes Athas in 2E parlance an alternative prime material plane.
You can say it’s easy to get from Athas to the other side of the multiverse, but that makes the Planar Gate rather pointless.
How its phrased in PAoA, seems that if other character’s using it for sinister purposes would meet with failure and that Dregoth has found a way around that.
I would assume that even if he moves them separately, one by one, if the intent is still to move an army through, the gate would detect the intent.
On another note, it always bugged me that the players were supposed to destroy the planar gate in CbtSS. Dregoth being as powerful as he is, it doesn’t feel right that he would allow the object most important to him in the multiverse to simply be destroyed by mere mortals. When I reach that point in my campaign, I intend to deal with it differently. Not sure how, but definitely not by allowing my PCs to just outright destroy it.
Same. The Planar Gate is a sentient (although not independent) being. The Planar Gate should at least be given a chance to explain why it exists before the PCs destroy it. For example, Planar Gate speaking in the third person:
“This is the Planar Gate. This entity exists for the research of the planes beyond the Gray. If you destroy this entity, Athas will be completely isolated. The planes beyond the Gray have an abundance of metal and magic. Instead of destroying this entity, this entity can send you there”.
The Planar Gate likely has some sort of self preservation protocol.
I’ve always thought it good to be stolen or sold. Probably by a SK. Any of them would be interested, though Nibenay is just logical. Whilst the Lion King’s Regalia goes to Hammanay.
♂ It’s definitely longer term and only really works if control can be maintained over the Black Spjne mountains (a fairly natural foam anyway). It becomes much more likely if the iron deposits are discovered and exploited. Cliff gliders for recon would also help but aren’t required. It’s still far and away the furthest stretch though.
