I believe a pound of iron is 1gp in Dune Trader. It would most likely be a small strip, not a bar. A pound of iron would be a little over a cup in volume. A bar might be 10 pounds.
I agree that copper is too useful to be used as currency. Most people on Athas barter anyway.
Edit: I made a mistake with a decimal point. Oops.
3 Likes
Hm, if a spoon of iron was that heavy, no iron tool would be usable. That’s about enough ore to make a single arrow tip, for comparison. A steel short sword weighs 2 pounds in PHB; steel would be 96+% iron. This is definitely a lot of spoons in volume.
Iron bars might be of any weight the craftsmen want, in fact. The only limit is practicality: Too small bars might not be suitable to create anything, while too big would be impossible to work with. Nothing would stop them from producing one pound bars and using them as a quasi-one-gold-piece. That’d be enough iron to make many small tools - and then, you can scale it up.
1 Like
A pound of iron would be almost 3 tablespoons or 3.5 cubic inches, so an ingot that was two inches wide, half an inch thick and 3.5 inches long, if I did my math right.
One of the reasons iron as a currency interests me is that it was used as such in ancient Sparta (note though that they were trying to discourage commerce).
Ah, sorry, we’ve got a bit of misunderstanding here 
Metal ingots are typical for metals that can be smelted and cast, like gold and copper alloys. It makes sense to store it in bars, which are more compact and easier to transport. After all, shape of the metal doesn’t really matter when you’re going to melt it down anyway. You might as well make it convenient.
Iron, on the other hand, can’t be cast - it has to be wrought. That’s why it’s stored in bars, which are more like metal rods. You can heat them up, then bend and hammer them into the right shape without breaking the metal. Connecting separate bits of iron requires welding, which… I’m not sure Athasian smiths are capable of. Not very well, at least.
That’s what makes iron bars interesting: They’re rods of just enough metal for a weapon or tool of a given size. A one pound iron bar would be enough to make a dagger or other Tiny-sized object; a two pound bar is enough for a Medium object, a four pound for a Large object, and so on. It not only gives them a ‘fixed’ value, but makes it clear what you can you make out of one.
2 Likes
Thanks for the lesson in metallurgy!
At risk of a tangent, why exactly was iron so popular as a material for making weapons? I’m guessing at some of the things a weapon maker might consider:
- how common is it
- how easy is it to shape into something
- how hard is it
- does it hold an edge
- how does it handle impacts it might experience in combat
- how long will it last
- how heavy is it
- how easy is it to repair
Anything I’m missing?
I’d like to have some means of evaluating the materials suggested in Substitutes for Metal thread
2 Likes
You’re spot-on with a lot of things here, at least according to what I read Bronze was expensive and difficult to manufacture, since it’s an alloy of two metals. Iron only requires one ore plus coal / carbon, so it’s cheaper and easier to manufacture. Using iron let you spam weapons and tools at much higher rate, so to speak.
Interestingly, I read bronze was a superior metal to iron and early steel. It was more durable and held a sharper edge (I heard they used brass razors way into Middle Ages). It’s still inferior to true steel, of course, but that kind of steel was developed pretty late. The biggest drawback of bronze weapons was that it bent and deformed easily - but even then, you could simply smelt a bent sword and cast it back into the right shape.
Also, thanks for the link - I’ve had some thoughts on Athas materials myself, so it’d be great to compare notes
@redking SeruZmaj gave some really good answers in your thread. I agree with a lot of what they say: There probably are rich veins out there, they’re just out of reach. Also, a lot of knowledge was lost. Entire races have been purged, and even those that were not have lost much. Also, I think a lot of mines were abandoned. Wasn’t the Tyr mine discovered several centuries after Kalak settled down?
I also wonder if the small size of the setting has anything to do with it. I once read the whole explored area is the size of California, Nevada, Arizona and Utah. That’s just a tiny slice of the planet. Is metal absent on Athas, or just in the known part of it?
Perhaps there still are rich ore veins, but they’re just too far away? Maybe the Tablelands and surrounding areas were always poor in ores? Prospecting for metal in faraway lands is certainly impractical, considering how tough it is to travel from one city to another on a road. It might still be out there, just… Out of reach?
3 Likes
If the iron is all mined out and mixed with the earth as ‘rust powder’ then one might be able to reclaim the iron if one could generate sufficient heat. I’m not aware of any fuel source on Athas that might fit the bill.
One alternative to Tyr’s feeble iron mine might be that they have some ancient relic that could generate enough heat to produce a small amount of iron on a daily basis; a ‘dragon furnace’ or solar oven of some sort. Put in a few shovelfuls of earth and by evening you have a bucket full of iron and glass.
2 Likes
Extracting iron from iron ore is more difficult than extracting copper from copper ores, due to their melting points. 2700F for wrought iron and 1983F for copper.
In addition, smelting iron is much more difficult than smelting copper and tin. Copper and tin can be poured into molds. Iron requires high heat and hot-working.
Iron is superior to bronze in weapons and tools. Hardness is increased and they retain an edge for a longer period of time. It may be easier to repair a bronze blade, but it’s even easy to not have to repair anything at all.
I enjoy iron being difficult and expensive. When the players get an iron weapon, it’s like finding a magic item in another setting.
In my game, I gave copper weapons a -1 to damage and it still has to roll for breakage. Bronze weapons have no penalties, but must still roll for breakage.
3 Likes
I like @NPC_X 's response over in this post. [feels like between these two posts we’ll soon have enough material for another Net Book]
To quote:
I never liked the rules for ‘inferior’ materials. ‘Inferior’ is a relative term; on Athas, these materials are the standards. It’s metal weapons and tools that are superior to them - hence, I believe they should be boosted up, while the ‘inferior’ weapons should be the unmodified rulebook equipment.
Why not make your copper weapons +1, bronze or iron weapons +2 and steel weapons +3? or some such.
1 Like
Oh, no doubt of that. Bronze is also much easier to work with, since you can simply cast it. The only real disadvantage of bronze is that it’s an alloy of copper and tin, and the latter is both rare and expensive. You basically need to keep two separate mining industries, which often don’t even coincide in the same region.
*Steel 
Wrought iron was actually a brittle, low quality material, ill-suited for weapons. Refining it into steel that’d beat bronze in all respects would take several centuries still. Which is why, again, I like the distinction between the ‘true steel’ (Green Era weapons and tools) and mere wrought iron made from Tyr ore.
2 Likes
Hol’ up! My assumption of Athasian technology levels does not accord with yours. You see Athas as being in the Bronze, Classical or Conan style Hyperborean Age. I see Athasian technology as approximately being at the earth equivalent of 1600 AD, but the lack of resources suppresses the output of technology into society in general. A wealthy nobleman or templar may have a telescope for example, but the technology will never become widespread.
Athas as I see it has come as far as it can technologically. Things have been invented but cannot be put into large scale production because of lack of metal.
2 Likes
My view of Athas is mostly shaped by illiteracy. Athas laws literally suppress the storage of knowledge. The only authorised use of writing is bureaucracy and statesmanship. Scholars do not exist as a profession or a caste. The lack of stored knowledge is an obstacle this civilisation can’t hope to overcome.
In case of metallurgy, the lack of practice is a death kneel. The Athasian smiths might know some ancient rhymes that describe the Green Age metallurgy, but they have no way to understand what they mean.
This doesn’t mean they don’t have any sophisticated technology, though. I just believe it’s whollly adapted to the Athas conditions. A telescope wouldn’t be a problem since it can be constructed from readily available materials. Advanced metallurgy, on the other hand, would be purely theoretical - and that level just can’t exist without writing.
1 Like
Yes. Correct.
Maybe. The Wanderer is clear that literacy is highly restricted. Only templars and nobles are permitted to read and write. But in practice the people of the merchant houses know how to read and write in their own script.
I think that they likely do, as a licensed profession or caste. Er’Stali was a freeman (or slave) historian from Urik. When Rome conquered Greece, they enslaved some of the population, many of whom were literate and educated. These slaves became a slave class of scribes. Likewise, Athasian slaves come in all sorts, and while mass education of slaves is out of bounds, there is surely an exception for educated slaves and licensing of such to do work for nobles and templars.
Athas has had many ages before the nadir its finds itself in now. Its resources, not innovation, which stunts the Athasian people.
2 Likes
I’m enjoying this conversation and am learning a lot about the history of metallurgy. I am reading some more. Yes, wrought iron is brittle and is terrible for weapons. It can be worked by a skilled smith to be about as good as bronze, but historically, it seems the best “iron” weapons, of the iron-age, were actually low-grade steel that was accidentally made. This is fascinating.
Also, it appears there were some other alloys of iron made that were better than bronze, but those were accidents as well.
2 Likes
Several things come to my mind with this thread. Here are my two ceramic pieces worth.
There has been several mentions of “lesser” metals. But no mention of aluminum yet. I haven’t researched it yet, but I think that may have been a viable option of a metal to use on Athas at one point. It’s fairly common on earth. Sure it may dull easier than iron and maybe has the some of the same problems the lesser metals have, but just one other metal to think about.
I like the idea that metals have been used as a medium of exchange historically due to their intrinsic value, non perishable nature, usability for tools or decoration, and ability to have varying divisions of units. This is why silver and gold coins have persisted so long. I also recall reading about one society that used the heads of metal hoes as a medium of exchange because of their potential usefulness. What Athasian’s have now with the ceramic coin is a system of fiat currency. I’ve thought of campaigns that might touch upon inflation or counterfitting all those ceramic pieces that might be easy to reproduce whereas metal is not.
I recently replaced all the doors in my house and out went all the metal hinges with them. I couldn’t help but think about all that metal just going to go to waste. Someone on Athas could sharpen a blade on them and attach to a handle and use as an axe or other chopping weapon or tool. I see the potential for some of older metal from previous ages or just repurposed like my hinges. And then being used as daggers or shivs or improvised metal weapons. Perhaps more smaller metal pieces being reused as a weapon. Just not many long swords like you see in a typical fantasy setting.
2 Likes
I don’t think that we can assume that Athas lacks for metallurgical specialists. What lack of metal does is price out the metal for trivial uses. In a society where metal is plentiful, you might expect children to have metal toys like metal figurines, or normal, non-wealthy adults to have metal chess pieces. In a world where metal resources are scarce that is not the case, but iron and other metals ARE used for industrial purposes on Athas.
Metal is expensive, not non-existent. Metal smiths will ply their trade as normal, except the materials that they are using are more expensive. Rather than metals being widely used by other segments of society, the bulk of these metals will pass through the hands of the metal smiths.
1 Like
This is why D&D needs the basics of a functional economy system with rough estimates to use as guidelines. Some simple tables and basic reasons and guidelines would suffice, I should think. Just enough to give an idea for how ‘valuable’ things versus available versus common things tend to go. Then slot your resources into the categories as appropriate and adjust the prices and off you go.
3 Likes
Sorry, life got a bit busy over the last two days. Thank you for your replies, they made me think a bit about something that’s been bothering me for a while.
I mentioned I favour The Wanderer’s Journal over other sources in another thread. This is because WJ presents Athas as a death world where everything revolves around survival. It made Dark Sun down-to-earth, practical and non-heroic, very different from other D&D settings. I’m really invested in that vision, which doesn’t always agree with other visions. In fact, it immediately clashed with The Prism Pentad 
Anyway, I don’t mean to sound contrary or argumentative. I’d just like to continue an interesting discussion and give some support to my view of things Anyway, spoiler brackets so I don’t bloat the thread too much:
Literacy and metallurgy, continued
I believe that’s the core of the problem, really. Literacy is both a legal crime and a cultural offence. Athas exists in a state of a total, permanent, culturally approved censorship. There are people who find a way around it, but it’s an illicit practice. Anyone who physically stores knowledge risks punishment. Most of all, this isn’t some arbitrary tyrannical law, but a very practical move against the spread of defiling magic. Most people approve of this ban and participate in it freely.
I believe this creates three impassable obstacles to the survival of knowledge:
-
Literacy is a deviation
The people who dabbles into physically stored knowledge are not accepted - they’re deviants who break both legal and social rules. This makes them a very narrow, exclusive group, with little reason to share their knowledge and sources with others. As such, they have an extremely limited impact on the society as a whole. Even revealing they know things everyone else forgot would immediately cast suspicion on them.
Worse still, this means the readers have the hardest time finding helpers who’d put their readings into practice. How do you, as a noble who never did a day of practical work, convince a craftsman to follow your instructions on metal smithing without making them suspicious? -
The lack of libraries
Athas is also a world with no liberty to store knowledge. Templars and nobles hide a handful of books in their records, but they can’t amass even a modest library without significant peril. Possession of books is a potent political hook and/or blackmail device; as such, even those who enjoy readership would only store a small number of sources.
Unfortunately, scholarship requires cross-referencing. No source is fully self-contained, and the few that come close are multi-tome series anyway. A prospective Athas scholar can’t enter a library or a monastery to do research. They’re limited to few, scattered, jealously guarded sources. As such, even those who do read mostly have access to fragmented, incomplete (and largely useless) sources. -
Lack of transmission of knowledge
Finally, the Athas ‘scholars’ have very few means to compare ideas and resources… And even less will to do so. For one thing, travel from one CS to another requires an insane amount of resources (water, food, travel gear, etc.) and poses a serious danger to the traveller’s life. Only the most foolhardy ‘scholar’ would undertake travels in search of sources and knowledge - which kept knowledge alive in our world.
For another, finding fellow book-owners and convincing them to share their resources in good faith might be even harder than travelling. Remember, anyone you contact about book lore might denounce you for personal gain. This goes both for the person who possesses a source and the person who asks for it.
I believe these factors would essentially stunt the Green Age-specific knowledge and technology to all but the SMs themselves. There’s no way to safely store, accumulate and transmit knowledge, whether old or new.
I have to argue again: It is the lack of practice, not resources, which stunts Athas in terms of Green Age technology. There is a gigantic leap between theoretical knowledge, applied knowledge and practical craftsmanship. Even if the theoretical lore behind the Green Age metallurgy survived (which I don’t find plausible), the Athas craftsmen lack the sheer how-it’s-done skill to use it… And the way things are, they’ll never get a chance to develop it.
That said, it applies mostly to the Green Age-specific technology. I believe Athasians found ways around these limitations and are capable of producing quite sophisticated technology of their own - just using completely different (often more climate-suitable) materials.
3 Likes