Justifications I’ve seen/heard for not using Monk and Soulknife (as a full 20 lvl base class) seem super legit: basically, they both completely mess up the “junk weapons” trope of Dark Sun.
Who needs a steel dagger if you can kill someone with your bare hands (or mindblade).
Yah because wizards, psions, clerics, druids, and templars can’t already kill people without weapons. 5 base classes that can kill people without shitty weapons is cool, but adding one more is a problem.
But casters are EXPECTED and narratively balanced to kill folks w/o weapons and armor.
Weapon use in DS is and has to be balanced in regards to risk/reward with weapons and armor. Doing a fighter or gladiator’s role better than they can, without dealing with crummy weapons or the hassles of armor breaks one of the game’s tropes and would logically almost competely replace those classes very quickly.
Similar things can be said of Sorcerers relative to Wizards.
I’m you and everyone else can/will have plenty of examples and arguments about how those things aren’t completely true or don’t have to be, but that’s beside the point.
One of the things that setting design/development has to concern itself with how it’s decisions will make the setting feel and what it means for everyone who looks at the product, leaving individual DM’s free to do whatever they want from there.
Any discussion about why Athas.org did/didn’t include a class has nothing to do with what you or i can or should do in our games.
That was one of the justifications. It is thin gruel considering that psioncists have been able to conjure weapons from level one. Ditto clerics with spiritual hammer. Also the Soulknife was turned into a prestige class.
The other was that there “are not enough monks on Athas to justify a baseclass”, “Athas does not have monk style martial arts”, and “does not fit the feeling of the setting” in the case of the Soulknife. The Soulknife get a double dose of circular reasoning. Since there is no precedent for a Soulknife in Athas (nor any other D&D setting as the class was created for 3E), there aren’t enough Soulknifes around to justify a base class.
One other aspect is that these were early days of 3E, and some among the LISTSERVE members believed the Monk to be an overpowered class. Years of real life playtesting has revealed the Monk to be one of the lower tier classes. Soulknife if even worse. In terms of class tier, it ranks just above Aristocrat and Expert NPC classes. If someone is willing to play a Soulknife, free weaponry is only a fair tradeoff.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think banning Soulknife is such a big deal because it’s a terrible class that will frustrate the player using it.
The real shocker was the initial banning of Barbarian. For some reason, some people claimed that the Barbarian class did not fit the setting. Fortunately, that didn’t stick.
ADDENDUM: And don’t get me wrong. The Athas dot org Soulknife PrC is a better class and fairer to players. If the reasoning was “we are going to fix the Soulknife by creating a PrC that is better for the game”, then that would make a lot of sense. That wasn’t the reasoning, however.
Monks make a lot of sense to me as a certain type of psion… that’s really all you have to do is reflavor them as psychometabolic psionic users that operate from a different tradition than the major schools in the city-states.
In Prestige Class Appendix 1 there is the psionic monk. Prestige Class Appendix 2 has the sensei. I wrote some stuff about these publications here. They could do with an update.
Yeah, exactly. But between the PrC and the ability of Psi-Warriors to ‘specialize’ on unarmed combat, that kinda hedges the core monk class out of the design space.
An early version (link to announcement) of the Templar here. Its a prestige class and comes with quite a few associated feats.
All in all, its an oddball class and you can see why it didn’t make the final cut.
The link to the announcement doesn’t go anywhere.
I got to it via the feats link.
Yeah, I’d call a 20 lvl PrC masquerading as a base class an oddity.
I kinda like the idea of a Templar PrC though, it echoes the Templar Background from 4e.
The link works for me.
I used to like the idea of a PrC too because I was fixated on one particular line in the boxed set that said that all templars got martial training, and they didn’t get spells until level 2 (after that they were much better than the standard cleric of other worlds in 2E).
The PrC idea was folly and I abandoned it. Instead I resolved it by giving them (in my own version) martial weapons proficiency with two martial weapons to represent basic martial training. By and large I like what the final product was with the templar by Athas dot org in that it differentiated well from the standard cleric and I used it as the basis for my own.
Yeah, the link to THAT page worked fine, the linknonnthat page to the Templar PrC was broken.
I like the PrC idea because it lends itself well to Royal Defiler/ Templars and Psionic Audator templars and War templars, etc.
But, its crap because it’s fiddley with regards to entry requirements and low-level templars, etc.
The link to templar, under the word “here”, also works for me. As long as you found it anyway, no problem.
Right. I came up with some similar things, but they work with the base class. For example, a psionic auditor templar would take this feat.
Mentat Templar [General]
You make yourself useful to the templarate by using your psionic powers. Your levels in psionic manifesting classes do not hinder your advancement within the templarate.
Prerequisites: Secular aptitude. Mitigate corruption.
Benefit: Your levels in psionic manifesting classes stack with your templar class levels for purposes of determining secular aptitude and mitigate corruption. In addition, if your combined class levels of psionic manifesting classes and templar should reach 14th level, you gain the benefits of the High Templar (Ex) class feature.
So they’d be templars, possibly with as little as one level in the templar class. They’d maintain the social meat and potatoes of the templar class, that is secular authority, ability to be corrupt, and progression up the hierarchy.
Right again. I think that different templar types are better handled with feats or ACFs. The way I’ve done it over in the thread I linked there is a lot of potential for variety, and no templar will be a cookie cutter copy of another.
A discussion about banning the Sorcerer class. From: sebastion gann
The only reason there is any primary source material for sorcerers in other game worlds is they wrote those novels after 3E came out! There was no primary source material for sorcerers in FR until the FR book came out, no one is complaining about them being included there.
This isn’t 2E, using “they weren’t in 2E” isn’t a logical argument. Sorcerers should be in DS, my opinion yes. There is no primary source stopping them from being in DS, but yes, there is nothing putting them there either. But ask yourselves something. Would Denning have used them if they were in the previous edition of DnD? I can’t think of any reason why not.
For me that is enough to include them. The only reason they aren’t in DS now is they weren’t in the previous edition of DnD. The best, and only, reason to include them is that they are in the Player’s Handbook and they do not go against the feel of DS. Yes, paladins can stay the hell out of dark sun thank you.
In my opinion this is also enough reason to include the Monk and Barbarian. Yes is see the Brute, but is see no reason to change the name. The reasons for include these three core (Barbarian/Monk/Sorcerer) classes is simple. None of them go against the flavor of Athas. They simply has the misfortune of not being used in 2E. There is no logical argument that would prevent their inclusion.
Actually, I very much see the Sorcerer as going against the flavor of Dark Sun. The sorcerer paints magic as something that’s “inborn” and “natural” to a person … Dark Sun paints magic as something so unnatural that it can literally destroy the ability to sustain life.
There are other effects of including sorcerers … there’s less reason for sorcerers to be banding together, because they can’t learn from one another the way that wizards do … no spell research, no spell books. By-bye veiled alliance. Who wouldn’t want to play a sorcerer, seeing as lugging around a spellbook is like tattooing a big kick me sign on your back.
The sorcerer disrupts world balance in a way that makes much of the current situations involving wizards ludicrous. It’s fine to introduce on worlds where persecution of magic is not a major theme … but on Athas, the inclusion of the sorcerer changes too much.
Not so, you are misinformed.
Athas.org had discussed the reasons for not including the sorcerer in past discussions and the fact they weren’t in the -rules- before wasn’t the deciding factor. The flavor and the backstory was.
There would be an impact on the wizard method of spellcasting just by having the sorcerer-method of arcane spellcasting available. Who in their right mind would bother to learn casting like a wizard, with all the social problems it causes, when you could cast spells like a sorcerer. Suddenly arcane spellcasters won’t need spellbooks any longer? That’s so severe a benefit over the wizard… on Athas… that players would swarm to the sorcerer over the wizard class.
The learning without mentors puts much of the Veiled Alliance out of business too. My personal opinion is that there /could/ be arcane spellcasters who cast like sorcerers do. I could see the three alternate energy mages from Defilers and Preservers fitting in that role. But not as a side-by-side equal to the wizard.
Redking’s comment: I don’t really buy that not having a spellbook is terribly unbalancing. I don’t even think that’s what game balance means. If we are saying that not having a spellbook is unbalancing, then you’d have to apply this to all applicable instances, sust as a fighter not having a spellbook. Also, there is the eschew material components feat. Is that to be banned too?
There is more there in this thread. Unfortunately it ended up with this sebastion fellow being piled on and accused of being malicious. It reminds me of the heated debates on the wizards forum.
I wouldn’t exclude any class, if a player wants to be a paladin in dark sun there are plenty of narrative reason for them to be one.
As for sorcerers, I would very much like to see sorcerers on athas as the offsprings of advanced beings, imo it would lend itself especially to the 5e sorcerer and its bloodline based subclasses. You can call them scions, say that this “mutation” only manifests in one of 10,000 to keep numbers low, they defile or preserve as wizards do, need training and studies to advance and learn new spell same as the wizard.
if the absence of a spellbook is so detrimental, one way to go about it is you can add that their magic is somewhat unstable and they have to roll a dice to determine whether they preserve or defile in a similar way to the wild magic sorcerer
The thing with paladins is that they have a very specific code of conduct. The elementals don’t care about your morality, which is why there are chaotic evil elemental clerics and lawful evil elemental clerics - or any alignment at all. The elementals don’t have any doctrines to hand down to paladins for their code of conduct.
In terms of the setting, paladins existed in 2E, and we’re explicitly excluded from 2E Dark Sun, which isn’t the case at all with Sorcerers. If there are any paladins in Dark Sun, they are likely to be outlanders from other worlds, like that and outlander fire giant cleric that is still able to receive spells from his deity, albeit of low level.
one way to go about it is you can add that their magic is somewhat unstable and they have to roll a dice to determine whether they preserve or defile in a similar way to the wild magic sorcerer
That would make them Sorcerers defilers by default. I don’t see why Sorcerers can’t exist in Dark Sun. They are just arcanists with a different mechanic. We know that Sadira had a spellbook because it is mentioned once in the PP, but many of the other arcane spellcasters in the novels could have been Sorcerers. Nothing to say that they are or they are not.
Not to derail the disscussion, but paladins need not necessarily be connected to the elementals. A character can be inspired by raaigs and wraiths such as those in the crimson temple in undertyr to take up the faith of a forgotten god and go on a quest to restore the religion/order. Is the source of their powers really divine? were the ancient gods real? maybe, maybe not. The mystery is part of the fun and a big part of dark sun. I can see a nearly faded god desperatly clinging to life and trying to restore its religion and divine conduits through mortal agents just as much as I can see a paladin whose beliefs are so strong, he psionically manifest power that emulate divine magic so closely it might as well be.
Can’t believe you made me defend paladins of all classes, I don’t even like paladins 
Though ironically dark sun is the only place where I can see myself playing one(along the lines stated above)
I’m only talking about the paladin class. This one.
The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil - these are the three weapons of the paladin. Few have the purity and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin’s path, but those few are rewarded with the power to protect, to heal, and to smite. In a land of scheming wizards, unholy priests, bloodthirsty dragons, and infernal fiends, the paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
Paladins take their adventures seriously and have a penchant for referring to them as quests. Even a mundane mission is, in the heart of the paladin, a personal test - an opportunity to demonstrate bravery, to develop martial skills, to learn tactics, and to find ways to do good. Still, the paladin really comes into her own when leading a mighty campaign against evil, not when merely looting ruins.
Divine power protects the paladin and gives her special powers. It wards off harm, protects her from disease, lets her heal herself, and guards her heart against fear. The paladin can also direct this power to help others, healing their wounds or curing diseases. Finally, the paladin can use this power to destroy evil. Even the least experienced paladin can detect evil, and more experienced paladins can smite evil foes and turn away undead. In addition, this power draws a mighty steed to the paladin and imbues that mount with strength, intelligence, and magical protection.
Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment. Additionally, paladins swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness.
Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity - devotion to righteousness is enough. Those who align themselves with particular religions prefer Heironeous (god of valor) over all others, but some paladins follow Pelor (the sun god). Paladins devoted to a god are scrupulous in observing religious duties and are welcome in every associated temple.
No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one’s destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin’s nature by any act of will. It is possible, however, to fail to recognize one’s own potential, or to deny one’s destiny. Occasionally, one who is called to be a paladin denies that call and pursues some other life instead.
Most paladins answer the call and begin training as adolescents. Typically, they become squires or assistants to experienced paladins, train for years, and finally set off on their own to further the causes of good and law. Other paladins, however, find their calling only later in life, after having pursued some other career. All paladins, regardless of background, recognize in each other an eternal bond that transcends culture, race, and even religion. Any two paladins, even from opposite sides of the world, consider themselves comrades.
Humans, with their ambitious souls, make great paladins. Half-elves, who often have human ambition, may also find themselves called into service as paladins. Dwarves are sometimes paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of the paladin’s life before duties to family, clan, and king. Elf paladins are few, and they tend to follow quests that take them far and wide because their lawful bent puts them out of synch with life among the elves. Members of the other common races rarely hear the call to become paladins. Among the savage humanoids, paladins are all but unheard of.
Even though paladins are in some ways set apart from others, they eagerly team up with those whose skills and capabilities complement their own. They work well with good and lawful clerics, and they appreciate working with those who are brave, honest, and committed to good. While they cannot abide evil acts by their companions, they are otherwise willing to work with a variety of people quite different from themselves. Charismatic, trustworthy, and well respected, the paladin makes a fine leader for a team.
The paladin’s chief role in most groups is as a melee combatant, but she contributes other useful support as well. She makes a good secondary healer, and her high Charisma opens up fine leadership opportunities.
There aren’t any examples on Athas of divine power coming from abstract concepts. I won’t rule it out fully, of course. Strange things can happen. But a paladin on Athas would be an oddity to say the least.
Addendum
Its worth pointing out what the Wanderer says about paladins. From the original boxed set.
Page 19: As a note, there are no paladins on Athas.
Page 22: There are no paladins in Dark Sun—the idea of serving good and right for the simple rewards of inner peace and faith faded from the barren world of Athas long ago. There is, however, one new warrior character class: the gladiator. Born of a demand for blood and excitement in the arenas, gladiators are, perhaps, the most deadly fighting characters.
As paladins do not exist on Athas in the present day, there is not a lot written about them. Interestingly, gladiators are offered up as the alternative to paladins, as Athasians are a bloodthirsty people.
I think Templars make a good alternative to playing a Paladin. They have quite a few similar mechanics.
Interesting that they offered gladiators as an alternate.
Let’s also not forget that the bard class got heavily modified to fit DS. I can’t see why a similar thing couldn’t be done for paladins. If someone really wants to play one. Give it a DS treatment.
Interesting to note that the adventure Black Spine included the monster manual entry for the githyanki that has the following:
Githyanki knights have all of the powers and abilities of a human paladin except these are turned toward evil (e.g. detect good instead of
detect evil, command undead instead of turning undead, etc.).
More of an anti Paladin but they offer a modification to the class nonetheless. I think the whole monster write up is for a generic setting not specific to DS.
My instinct is for maximal inclusion. I think the systemic error made by the previous team was that they wanted 3E to justify itself to the 2E Dark Sun setting, rather than proceed from the assumption that 3E is the default, and that there needs to be a justified reason why any class should be excluded. As I mention above, I won’t rule out a paladin, but its going to be an oddity, like an incident of a man biting a dog.
The Blackguard was excluded out of hand, without even an attempt to let them fit into the Dark Sun setting. This despite there being some textual basis for it. Page 66, Dragon Kings.
The direct paths from the prime material to the outer planes are called conduits. Anchored firmly at two locations, one on the prime and one in an outer plane, these wormhole conduits ferry beings back and forth regularly. On the prime, fixed locations such as temples are ideal anchors for conduits. Jealous of the unique relationship between the elemental planes and the prime material, some dark powers of the outer planes have fabricated living conduits that masquerade as living vortices, so that they might meddle further in the affairs of the tiny world of Athas.
Could this now allow for a Blackguard? Now - a requirement for a Blackguard is ‘the character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else’. Not easy, but probably not impossible, either.
