An early version (link to announcement) of the Templar here. Its a prestige class and comes with quite a few associated feats.
All in all, its an oddball class and you can see why it didn’t make the final cut.
The link to the announcement doesn’t go anywhere.
1 Like
I got to it via the feats link.
Yeah, I’d call a 20 lvl PrC masquerading as a base class an oddity.
I kinda like the idea of a Templar PrC though, it echoes the Templar Background from 4e.
1 Like
The link works for me.
I used to like the idea of a PrC too because I was fixated on one particular line in the boxed set that said that all templars got martial training, and they didn’t get spells until level 2 (after that they were much better than the standard cleric of other worlds in 2E).
The PrC idea was folly and I abandoned it. Instead I resolved it by giving them (in my own version) martial weapons proficiency with two martial weapons to represent basic martial training. By and large I like what the final product was with the templar by Athas dot org in that it differentiated well from the standard cleric and I used it as the basis for my own.
Yeah, the link to THAT page worked fine, the linknonnthat page to the Templar PrC was broken.
I like the PrC idea because it lends itself well to Royal Defiler/ Templars and Psionic Audator templars and War templars, etc.
But, its crap because it’s fiddley with regards to entry requirements and low-level templars, etc.
The link to templar, under the word “here”, also works for me. As long as you found it anyway, no problem.
Right. I came up with some similar things, but they work with the base class. For example, a psionic auditor templar would take this feat.
Mentat Templar [General]
You make yourself useful to the templarate by using your psionic powers. Your levels in psionic manifesting classes do not hinder your advancement within the templarate.
Prerequisites: Secular aptitude. Mitigate corruption.
Benefit: Your levels in psionic manifesting classes stack with your templar class levels for purposes of determining secular aptitude and mitigate corruption. In addition, if your combined class levels of psionic manifesting classes and templar should reach 14th level, you gain the benefits of the High Templar (Ex) class feature.
So they’d be templars, possibly with as little as one level in the templar class. They’d maintain the social meat and potatoes of the templar class, that is secular authority, ability to be corrupt, and progression up the hierarchy.
Right again. I think that different templar types are better handled with feats or ACFs. The way I’ve done it over in the thread I linked there is a lot of potential for variety, and no templar will be a cookie cutter copy of another.
A discussion about banning the Sorcerer class. From: sebastion gann
The only reason there is any primary source material for sorcerers in other game worlds is they wrote those novels after 3E came out! There was no primary source material for sorcerers in FR until the FR book came out, no one is complaining about them being included there.
This isn’t 2E, using “they weren’t in 2E” isn’t a logical argument. Sorcerers should be in DS, my opinion yes. There is no primary source stopping them from being in DS, but yes, there is nothing putting them there either. But ask yourselves something. Would Denning have used them if they were in the previous edition of DnD? I can’t think of any reason why not.
For me that is enough to include them. The only reason they aren’t in DS now is they weren’t in the previous edition of DnD. The best, and only, reason to include them is that they are in the Player’s Handbook and they do not go against the feel of DS. Yes, paladins can stay the hell out of dark sun thank you.
In my opinion this is also enough reason to include the Monk and Barbarian. Yes is see the Brute, but is see no reason to change the name. The reasons for include these three core (Barbarian/Monk/Sorcerer) classes is simple. None of them go against the flavor of Athas. They simply has the misfortune of not being used in 2E. There is no logical argument that would prevent their inclusion.
Actually, I very much see the Sorcerer as going against the flavor of Dark Sun. The sorcerer paints magic as something that’s “inborn” and “natural” to a person … Dark Sun paints magic as something so unnatural that it can literally destroy the ability to sustain life.
There are other effects of including sorcerers … there’s less reason for sorcerers to be banding together, because they can’t learn from one another the way that wizards do … no spell research, no spell books. By-bye veiled alliance. Who wouldn’t want to play a sorcerer, seeing as lugging around a spellbook is like tattooing a big kick me sign on your back.
The sorcerer disrupts world balance in a way that makes much of the current situations involving wizards ludicrous. It’s fine to introduce on worlds where persecution of magic is not a major theme … but on Athas, the inclusion of the sorcerer changes too much.
Not so, you are misinformed.
Athas.org had discussed the reasons for not including the sorcerer in past discussions and the fact they weren’t in the -rules- before wasn’t the deciding factor. The flavor and the backstory was.
There would be an impact on the wizard method of spellcasting just by having the sorcerer-method of arcane spellcasting available. Who in their right mind would bother to learn casting like a wizard, with all the social problems it causes, when you could cast spells like a sorcerer. Suddenly arcane spellcasters won’t need spellbooks any longer? That’s so severe a benefit over the wizard… on Athas… that players would swarm to the sorcerer over the wizard class.
The learning without mentors puts much of the Veiled Alliance out of business too. My personal opinion is that there /could/ be arcane spellcasters who cast like sorcerers do. I could see the three alternate energy mages from Defilers and Preservers fitting in that role. But not as a side-by-side equal to the wizard.
Redking’s comment: I don’t really buy that not having a spellbook is terribly unbalancing. I don’t even think that’s what game balance means. If we are saying that not having a spellbook is unbalancing, then you’d have to apply this to all applicable instances, sust as a fighter not having a spellbook. Also, there is the eschew material components feat. Is that to be banned too?
There is more there in this thread. Unfortunately it ended up with this sebastion fellow being piled on and accused of being malicious. It reminds me of the heated debates on the wizards forum.
I wouldn’t exclude any class, if a player wants to be a paladin in dark sun there are plenty of narrative reason for them to be one.
As for sorcerers, I would very much like to see sorcerers on athas as the offsprings of advanced beings, imo it would lend itself especially to the 5e sorcerer and its bloodline based subclasses. You can call them scions, say that this “mutation” only manifests in one of 10,000 to keep numbers low, they defile or preserve as wizards do, need training and studies to advance and learn new spell same as the wizard.
if the absence of a spellbook is so detrimental, one way to go about it is you can add that their magic is somewhat unstable and they have to roll a dice to determine whether they preserve or defile in a similar way to the wild magic sorcerer
1 Like
The thing with paladins is that they have a very specific code of conduct. The elementals don’t care about your morality, which is why there are chaotic evil elemental clerics and lawful evil elemental clerics - or any alignment at all. The elementals don’t have any doctrines to hand down to paladins for their code of conduct.
In terms of the setting, paladins existed in 2E, and we’re explicitly excluded from 2E Dark Sun, which isn’t the case at all with Sorcerers. If there are any paladins in Dark Sun, they are likely to be outlanders from other worlds, like that and outlander fire giant cleric that is still able to receive spells from his deity, albeit of low level.
one way to go about it is you can add that their magic is somewhat unstable and they have to roll a dice to determine whether they preserve or defile in a similar way to the wild magic sorcerer
That would make them Sorcerers defilers by default. I don’t see why Sorcerers can’t exist in Dark Sun. They are just arcanists with a different mechanic. We know that Sadira had a spellbook because it is mentioned once in the PP, but many of the other arcane spellcasters in the novels could have been Sorcerers. Nothing to say that they are or they are not.
1 Like
Not to derail the disscussion, but paladins need not necessarily be connected to the elementals. A character can be inspired by raaigs and wraiths such as those in the crimson temple in undertyr to take up the faith of a forgotten god and go on a quest to restore the religion/order. Is the source of their powers really divine? were the ancient gods real? maybe, maybe not. The mystery is part of the fun and a big part of dark sun. I can see a nearly faded god desperatly clinging to life and trying to restore its religion and divine conduits through mortal agents just as much as I can see a paladin whose beliefs are so strong, he psionically manifest power that emulate divine magic so closely it might as well be.
Can’t believe you made me defend paladins of all classes, I don’t even like paladins 
Though ironically dark sun is the only place where I can see myself playing one(along the lines stated above)
1 Like
I’m only talking about the paladin class. This one.
The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil - these are the three weapons of the paladin. Few have the purity and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin’s path, but those few are rewarded with the power to protect, to heal, and to smite. In a land of scheming wizards, unholy priests, bloodthirsty dragons, and infernal fiends, the paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
Paladins take their adventures seriously and have a penchant for referring to them as quests. Even a mundane mission is, in the heart of the paladin, a personal test - an opportunity to demonstrate bravery, to develop martial skills, to learn tactics, and to find ways to do good. Still, the paladin really comes into her own when leading a mighty campaign against evil, not when merely looting ruins.
Divine power protects the paladin and gives her special powers. It wards off harm, protects her from disease, lets her heal herself, and guards her heart against fear. The paladin can also direct this power to help others, healing their wounds or curing diseases. Finally, the paladin can use this power to destroy evil. Even the least experienced paladin can detect evil, and more experienced paladins can smite evil foes and turn away undead. In addition, this power draws a mighty steed to the paladin and imbues that mount with strength, intelligence, and magical protection.
Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment. Additionally, paladins swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness.
Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity - devotion to righteousness is enough. Those who align themselves with particular religions prefer Heironeous (god of valor) over all others, but some paladins follow Pelor (the sun god). Paladins devoted to a god are scrupulous in observing religious duties and are welcome in every associated temple.
No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one’s destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin’s nature by any act of will. It is possible, however, to fail to recognize one’s own potential, or to deny one’s destiny. Occasionally, one who is called to be a paladin denies that call and pursues some other life instead.
Most paladins answer the call and begin training as adolescents. Typically, they become squires or assistants to experienced paladins, train for years, and finally set off on their own to further the causes of good and law. Other paladins, however, find their calling only later in life, after having pursued some other career. All paladins, regardless of background, recognize in each other an eternal bond that transcends culture, race, and even religion. Any two paladins, even from opposite sides of the world, consider themselves comrades.
Humans, with their ambitious souls, make great paladins. Half-elves, who often have human ambition, may also find themselves called into service as paladins. Dwarves are sometimes paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of the paladin’s life before duties to family, clan, and king. Elf paladins are few, and they tend to follow quests that take them far and wide because their lawful bent puts them out of synch with life among the elves. Members of the other common races rarely hear the call to become paladins. Among the savage humanoids, paladins are all but unheard of.
Even though paladins are in some ways set apart from others, they eagerly team up with those whose skills and capabilities complement their own. They work well with good and lawful clerics, and they appreciate working with those who are brave, honest, and committed to good. While they cannot abide evil acts by their companions, they are otherwise willing to work with a variety of people quite different from themselves. Charismatic, trustworthy, and well respected, the paladin makes a fine leader for a team.
The paladin’s chief role in most groups is as a melee combatant, but she contributes other useful support as well. She makes a good secondary healer, and her high Charisma opens up fine leadership opportunities.
There aren’t any examples on Athas of divine power coming from abstract concepts. I won’t rule it out fully, of course. Strange things can happen. But a paladin on Athas would be an oddity to say the least.
Addendum
Its worth pointing out what the Wanderer says about paladins. From the original boxed set.
Page 19: As a note, there are no paladins on Athas.
Page 22: There are no paladins in Dark Sun—the idea of serving good and right for the simple rewards of inner peace and faith faded from the barren world of Athas long ago. There is, however, one new warrior character class: the gladiator. Born of a demand for blood and excitement in the arenas, gladiators are, perhaps, the most deadly fighting characters.
As paladins do not exist on Athas in the present day, there is not a lot written about them. Interestingly, gladiators are offered up as the alternative to paladins, as Athasians are a bloodthirsty people.
2 Likes
I think Templars make a good alternative to playing a Paladin. They have quite a few similar mechanics.
Interesting that they offered gladiators as an alternate.
Let’s also not forget that the bard class got heavily modified to fit DS. I can’t see why a similar thing couldn’t be done for paladins. If someone really wants to play one. Give it a DS treatment.
Interesting to note that the adventure Black Spine included the monster manual entry for the githyanki that has the following:
Githyanki knights have all of the powers and abilities of a human paladin except these are turned toward evil (e.g. detect good instead of
detect evil, command undead instead of turning undead, etc.).
More of an anti Paladin but they offer a modification to the class nonetheless. I think the whole monster write up is for a generic setting not specific to DS.
3 Likes
My instinct is for maximal inclusion. I think the systemic error made by the previous team was that they wanted 3E to justify itself to the 2E Dark Sun setting, rather than proceed from the assumption that 3E is the default, and that there needs to be a justified reason why any class should be excluded. As I mention above, I won’t rule out a paladin, but its going to be an oddity, like an incident of a man biting a dog.
The Blackguard was excluded out of hand, without even an attempt to let them fit into the Dark Sun setting. This despite there being some textual basis for it. Page 66, Dragon Kings.
The direct paths from the prime material to the outer planes are called conduits. Anchored firmly at two locations, one on the prime and one in an outer plane, these wormhole conduits ferry beings back and forth regularly. On the prime, fixed locations such as temples are ideal anchors for conduits. Jealous of the unique relationship between the elemental planes and the prime material, some dark powers of the outer planes have fabricated living conduits that masquerade as living vortices, so that they might meddle further in the affairs of the tiny world of Athas.
Could this now allow for a Blackguard? Now - a requirement for a Blackguard is ‘the character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else’. Not easy, but probably not impossible, either.
1 Like
I believe you’re reading the below quote wrong and then forwarding an erroneous argument.
They’re essentially talking about disrupting the setting narrative and feel, not the game mechanics.
But, speaking of game mechanics, if someone had instead said: “Psions are a optional class and we’re making them Core to DS 3.5e,nas psions are integral to DS. 3.5e Psions fill the exact conceptual and mechanical niches usually occupied by 3.5e Sorcerers, making Sorcerers pointless.” This wouldn’t continue to be a conversation today.
1 Like
The same goes for eschew material components then. The chance of getting busted with spell components is way higher than being caught with your spellbook, which is likely stashed away carefully. Yet no one banned that feat.
I feel that Sorcerer and Psion are rather different. Both use abilities spontaneously, but the Sorcerer is far more constrained. Anyway - no Sorcerer = no Beguiler, no Dread Necromancer, no Warmage and so on. I can’t see any reason to exclude them. The starting point should be inclusion. Keep in mind that none of these classes, including Sorcerer, had any precedent in the Forgotten Realms either. Yet there they are.
1 Like
Apples and oranges. Eschew Materials is similar to Psionic Mimicery, which itself was a NPW in 2e. EM has a legit mechanical benefit, as opposed to just a narrative one, and is takeable by any spellcaster, not just sorcerers or even arcanists.
That’s really the rub, isn’t it? YOU can’t see a reason, not there isn’t a reasonable or legitimate one. Tastes and opinions vary, and for every person who wants Sorcerers in DS, there’s another who hates everything in the Expanded Boxed Set.
There’s no possibility of winning or being right.
If anyone really wants Sorcerers or Warmages and Dread Necromancers, etc in Dark Sun, then write up an article (or a series) for here or on Athas.org, detailing how they’d fit into Athas and how someone could carve out a mechanical niche for the class in their game.
2 Likes
Yeah, ultimately it was a choice. I remember Brax being against the Barbarian, not because the class wasn’t appropriate, but because the name and thus some of it’s abilities didn’t fit. Which is why in some older versions it was called the Brute or something.
Nowadays my thought is that if someone wants the class in and has a reason they’d fit IN THEIR GAME. Then they should do it.
I don’t think the idea that because Monks are not eastern style monks (from the 1-2 examples) in Dark Sun doesn’t mean that they couldn’t be included. If you want a 4 elements monk decide if they’re related to a Clerical group or maybe a druidic circle. Again make what you want.
2 Likes
Eschew material components is literally useless for a non-arcane spellcaster. I am reminded of this thread elsewhere.
You are begging the question about the mechanical niche. You’ve set the mechanical niche as a requirement for some reason without asking yourself why a class needs to provide a mechanical niche. I’ve been on the forums and seen the back and forth for a long time on these issues. Here is another quote from the mailing list, from a fellow called A Hughey.
Come up with an athasian reason that actually works (the pristine tower warped me is obviously not going to be accepted) and a few examples and then people will be more willing to consider it. I know I would.
Many folks have done this several times over the past couple years with rather dissapointing results. There has been lots of resistance that usually breaks up into two main camps.
The first camp has a fairly rigid view of Athas (colored strongly by 2nd ed prejudices) that ends up with a “it wasn’t in the boxed set, it shouldn’t exist” kind of attitude. Many of their arguments hinge on things like the need for spellbooks or some other thing without which Athas won’t make sense. (Flip and I have both demonstrated the flaws in the literacy argument.)
The second camp resembles the first and often has similar arguments, but their main reservation is actually a dislike for the sorceror class itself, Athas or no. Of course, this is a gross generalization covering a variety of opinions, but these are the two main groups oppposing the sorcerers in Dark Sun proposals.
Below are links to my huge post on sorcerors in the archives. It is very rough and just a proposal I made to counter those who said “write it up and we’ll take a look at it.” The most popular kind of response indicated they’d consider it, but only if sorcerors were saddled with some kind of mcguffin to mark them as sorcerors (talisman, tattoo, funny hat, etc.).
An article here or there won’t make it better when people insist that Sorcerers must be descendants of dragons or supernatural beings, even though it doesn’t say that in 3E at all. Even if that were the case, sorcerous powers could be fluffed as force of will or personal practice. For what its worth, here is the 3.5E fluff for Sorcerer.
Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories - just raw power that they direct at will. Some sorcerers claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins. That claim may even be true in some cases - it is common knowledge that certain powerful dragons can take humanoid form and even have humanoid lovers, and it’s difficult to prove that a given sorcerer does not have a dragon ancestor. It’s true that sorcerers often have striking good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at an unusual heritage. Others hold that the claim is either an unsubstantiated boast on the part of certain sorcerers or envious gossip on the part of those who lack the sorcerer’s gift.
I am putting in bold the parts that cast serious doubt on supernatural ancestry.
The point I am making is that the demand for proof that 3E classes fit in Dark Sun is backwards. Compatibility should be assumed until proven otherwise.
You are mistaken. Practically useless, perhaps; literally, nope.
@raddu I 100% support people using whatever they want in their games - I’ve used the Chameleon PrC myself - and I’m sure the 3.5e Rules folks do too, but if the question is “why did a design decision for the 3.6e rules get made”, that’s different than telling folks they can’t uae something.
Ultimately, no designer owes their consumer anything but good work.
1 Like
Please look at those spells. Look under “material component”. If it says “arcane material component”, it is irrelevant to you as a divine caster. If it says “material component” and the component is worth over 1gp (1 cp on Athas), then eschew material components is not applicable. If there were more divine spells than I can count on my hand that are applicable to eschew material components, I’ll eat my hat. This is getting hit with a bolt of lightning territory.
I think the concern was compatibility across tables. For example, if someone wanted to play a barbarian, but barbarian was not accepted by the official rules, then there is a good chance it will be excluded from many tables. Ultimately the decision to exclude the barbarians was reversed, and that was a good thing. I just wish the Sorcerer had been accepted also.
The aim was to convert Dark Sun to 3E and then 3.5E. Not convert 3.5E to Dark Sun. When I look at what is should be permitted and what should not be permitted, setting warping is the most important consideration. Sorcerer doesn’t warp the setting.