I am glad to hear that there are some who are lore focused (@Kamelion & @Sysane ), because I’m the sort that is very mechanics/rules focused, due to various reasons I’ll save for another discussion elsewhere. I feel we need both lore and mechanical specialists in order to make things really begin to grow again. Ignoring either one will eventually defile our efforts to preserve, lol.
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I’m probably newer to d&d than most here, first started playing near the end of 3.5, never heard of Dark Sun until 4e, but since then have played and GM’d in almost every version of d&d to exist (1st, 2nd, players option, 3.0, 3.5, pathfinder (yes I’m aware its not technically d&d), 4e, essentials, 5e), including Dark Sun in multiple editions.
As far as writing credentials, I’ve spent far too much time writing lore and mechanics alike for various dungeons and dragons games/projects, along with an unrelated short story or two that I could use as a writing sample if needed. I’m honestly not sure whether I’m better at mechanics or lore, but I could work with either.
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We need to start a nomination process for elevation to templar status. I can think of half a dozen people right now that should be templars.
I’m sure @raddu will take that into consideration, @redking.
While we wait for the above mentioned plan, I have a question for those of us who are currently active: due to historical reasons, the lore of Athas is… inconsistent. While it is entirely possible for different accounts, rumors, lies, misinformation, wild speculation, etc to account for some of this, at some point we will reach the necessity of departing from existing lore and creating new lore.
While I am very mechanics focused and have never been deeply into the lore (of any D&D setting, hope that doesn’t offend), I fully acknowledge that lore affects mechanics, and mechanics affects lore. (Hence my interest in this otherwise lore specific question.)
After all, it’s more what SFX like psionics or magic or lifeshaping CAN’T do that is interesting to a reader or player, that what it can do. The limitations drive story, and inspire most to try to figure out how they would handle it.
Thus my question: in the opinion of the lore masters, when should that break come? Where should we draw the line between filling in existing detail or reconciling old material somehow, and charting a new course? Growth demands the latter while Consistency requests the former. And the Mechanics need to know either way.
What say my fellow actives? This sort of question is important in planning for the future development. Opinions please!
(Reference link: Was the Wanderer always meant to be an unreliable narrator?)
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I’m concerned about this idea of going forward. I tried asking the active members a question about canon. The problem is our sense of fractured community. You’re always going to have those who won’t accept the officialness of this site. Some only consider the original boxed set canon others who accept the revised boxed set but not 4e. Some like Lynn Abbey’s take in RaFoaDK while others despise that work.
Reaching a concensus of what is the correct history of Athas in my opinion will only occur once we have a central leader with blessings from WoTC or Hasbro to take the reins. That’s about the only way I can see us settling the past so that we can move forward.
Keep in mind I’ve only been here 2 months so if someone like I’ve described already exists then disregard my uninformed position.
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I think you make an important point here about sources – the original box set, to my understanding, didn’t make it clear that the sorcerer-kings are in the process of dragon metamorphosis, but this had always been intended to be revealed in ‘dragon kings’. So, what counts as ‘canon’ in that case? Similarly, most of the ideas some people hate like the biomech halflings, to my understanding, were planned already, just not stated outright in the first box. So, in that case, does intention count? The cosmology of the elemental planes was also developed over the course of the 2e run (batazeu and tanari are listed as appropriate monsters in encounter tables and appear in adventures), so that’s not consistent, nor is what 4e did to that. Then there’s the stuff that just doesn’t seem to make much sense like the vision of the avangion at the Chak’sa in Thri-kreen of Athas – where did this ancient avangion come from?
You’d have to pick one ‘take’ and move on from there – and everyone’s going to favor different interpretations. I personally started with the 2e box, so that’s my fundamental conception of the setting, and includes halfling biotech.
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I agree that this is a valid concern, and that there will be challenges in picking a course… that’s why I’m mentioning it now.
I’m personally in favor of lifeshaping-biotech as a non-psionic non-magic ruleset… it brings a lot of interesting options and potential to not only Athas, but also for other settings and DMs that might want to have genetic horrors or better grafting rules or alterations be a thing in their games. Ancient Avangion? My brainstorming imagination promptly throws up (time travel of a future avangion, or a temporal projection of one into the past, the Spirit of Athas itself manifesting to prepare the Thri-Kreen - the real chosen of Athas - for the things to come so that they would survive, a manifestation of an ancestral spirit that wasn’t an actual avangion but was something else… maybe the avangions modeled themselves after it instead! )
How much are we trying to create a toolset for the DMs and Players with the Lore, and how much are we trying to stick to/grow from the existing Lore… and if there is going to be a break and change, when and where and what direction should it go?
I actually have my own ideas, but they are somewhat skeletal and more based on making it possible to bring in specific mechanics than anything else. ^^
I would also favor a democracy-styled approach to deciding, rigged just enough to prevent deadlocks, but also acknowledge the advantages of having a benevolent monarch in providing a clear direction.
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I get why people like this, but I’ve never felt it works, especially given that elemental clerics did show up during the blue age per TSR’s official timeline. Too much that was done with lifeshaping sits somewhere between improbable to impossible to do without some form of magic or psionics being involved, and there are multiple blue age relics that now possess magic or psionics, and that’s before you get into a couple of late TSR dragon magazine articles which hold, among other things, players option variant halflings with clerical healing and creation spell based lifeshaping, and a blue age relic that is a psionically empowered psychometablism using blob (both were written by Bill Slavicsek, so take that as you will).
I do agree with you that we need to sort this out as a community.
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Personally I favor resolving it by tying it in with other TSR original canon. Namely the S.S. Beagle from the Star Empires game the creators were also all playing at the time. Or more specifically, the loose coalition of empires that ship came from. For those not familiar with Greyhawk lore, it is the crashed star ship that featured in several major adventures back in the day, including references all the way back to the original Blackmoor supplement in Original D&D.
D&D has always been science-fantasy, ever since Arneson’s creations were added to Gygax’s creations (who favored a more strictly traditional medieval fantasy), and it has remained as such ever since. And I for one actually like it that way. I’ll admit I’m an inclusionist of sorts. Not only do I use the full (official) d20 system since D&D is a subset of d20 (and the d20 metapsi feats make more sense than the 3.5 ones for the most part), but I also like joining all the worlds together in a story sense as well as mechanical sense.
I think Lifeshaping could be harmonized by making it science based, be it an artifact left behind by an exploratory expedition of one of the further away star empires from those operating in the general region of Oerth, or a crashed satellite or some other device, robot probe even that malfunctioned in such a way as to make it’s biological sampling database accessible.
So planar shifting is nearly impossible, and jamming is right out, but I’ve always thought of jamming as something that is happening on a metapsionic or metamagic level or view of the universe. sort of like travelling in the 5th or 6th dimension to or away from a given planet. Different frequencies of sub-space or hyperspace. But Science can still reach Athas.
thus, we could resolve how lifeshaping came to Athas in the first place without magic or psi by using science. Especially how the womb-tech works and why it is necessary… that likely alters the subject on the nano level and grants them senses and manipulators capable of perceiving and manipulating on the genetic level.
Anyway, I’m getting off topic.
I have ideas, and I’d like to have a shot at bringing them to light via Athas, but that’s a future discussion once we know what plans will be put in place. =D Just everyone think about it, make lists and prepare for discussion!
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I’ve seen many online pissing contests of who can pull out some obscure reference. As soon as you have motivated passionate people you’ll end up with conflict. That’s where a powerful sorcerer monarch steps in. Someone with divine right to rule granted by WoTC.
Now based on my avatar you can see where my thinking lies.
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I’ve always been a man of few words.
Why bother and try to strangle each other about Pre-Prism Pentad or Post-Prism Pentad?
Athas.org followed the OFFICIAL revised boxed set. So is the way to proceed.
If you wish to create your campaign PRE-Pentad, just play it PRE-Pentad.
All the inconsistencies that happened before or after PP can be explained in an “errata” document. Once it’s been done, all new products will follow this line.
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Excellent approach.
May I also throw out there the idea of [Timelines of Athas: Campaign Options] as optional sourcebooks? We could throw all the great ideas for various What Ifs and How It Should Have Ended ideas into one (or more) expansions for people to have fun with and play. That way we can have both a primary line in keeping with Athas’ historical direction, and a Let’s Fix Everything line available to everyone.
=D
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I am creating a new thread to allow this sub-topic to continue. “Expanded Athas”
This thread was created to discuss the subject of new Templars being selected in the Athas.org Arena.
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What? Another thread bump?
Let’s see what’s written on the title.
Ahhhh yes, new blood?
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I’d be willing to help. I’ve got a few writing credits out there (not dnd) and I’m a pretty good writer (without false modesty). I’m strong mechanically and in lore. Where I’m weak is time, life, family, work and all is furiously busy which I don’t see ending any time soon (a good thing). My art skills are non-existent. I’m also pro psionics and pro life (shaping - in as much as I like it existing elsewhere with mechanical non magical non psionic rules). My sense of humour trends a little dark when I don’t restrain myself.
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Sign me up. I’m willing to help however I can. I’m good at logo design, proofreading, and setting validation, and I’m pretty at layouts and project coordination.
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