Caelum from the Prism Pentad series of novels is a great example of this. He’s an out and out fanatic. He forced his wife Neeva to suffer horrific sunburn on her pregnant belly so that the resulting child would become a sun (fire) cleric.
1 Like
I forget where I read this (probably the PP), but another give away effect (instead of green tendrils) was a kind of heat haze rising from the ground to the wizards hand. I guess the given effect varies from wizard to wizard (much like some of the visual, olfactory and auditory effects that original 2E DS had).
2 Likes
In past priests and druids were persecuted. In “game time”, how I look now, right have Kalindren that if they arent too big problem they will be ignored by state administration. But in many places druids still have problems. In Tyr, even under Kalak, or Nibenay they are accepted, but in many places still “huntings on druids” is did it.
Fast fragments from “Earth, Air, Fire and Water”
Site 5:
“But the templars, and even some elves I know, have been well rewarded for delivering the heads of wasteland druids”
site 45 “The Bane of Sorcerer-Kings”. Here is wroten, that priests were persecuted and next step was extermination of druid.
Yes I know this. But I wasn’t sure level of knowadle of normal peoples about users of divine magic and this type of magic. Because still many non-educated, normal “bread eaters” often don’t know that mages can be divided to Defilers and Preservers
I don’t believe that the difference between a preserver and defiler is that clear cut. A preserver makes effort to ensure that they draw energy from plants without killing them, while a defiler doesn’t care. But if you had many preservers in the same location drawing energy from the same plants, I’m pretty sure the outcome would be identical to that of a defiler. Now, I’m sure that organized groups like the Veiled Alliance make effort to avoid just such a scenario, but such a scenario can happen spontaneously in places where preservers do not know each other.
The difference between a preserver and defiler is a difference of degree. The better option is to not use magic at all, and this is how the common people view it even if they make a distinction.
I wrote not about perspective of experts, but by perspective of normal people.
Even mages ofton don’t know, that “there exist other form of magic”. So if mages hadn’t info about this - potters, bakers, farmers, artisans, bricklayers, jewelers, hunter-gatherers, cannon fodder etc. also often hadn’t infos that “there exist more forms of magic and some can be neutral for nature”. Therefore any wizards can be victim of lynching “because he is mage”.
Fast quote from “Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas” site 50.
“These wizards tend to believe that what they do is the only kind of magic that exists.”
Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas was the second last Dark Sun product to be published in the 2E line, and possibly the most problematic. I take anything written in that product with a pound of salt.
Based on every other DS product that discusses magic, it seems implausible that a wizard would not know the difference between defiling and preserving. Even then, the difference is not so great that a commoner would not think a defiler and preserver is the same thing. The only casters of clean magic, also introduced for the first time in Defilers and Preservers, are the Gray, Black and Cerulean casters, all of which overturn the entire premise of the setting.
We can look also on ohter books
Eg. “Marauders of Nibenay” site 7
"To the general populace of Nibenay, there is no difference between a defiler and preserver. "
For example by way of the distinguishing between psionics and non psionic stuff: most (but not all) 3.x powers have a Visual Display, which by default is burning points of silver fire being visible in the eyes of the manifesting psion.
Unless suppressed by a skill check - which would most likely never happen at low levels, this should be the nearly default description for most psionic usage, regardless of world or campaign setting… IF using the 3rd edition ruleset without mods.
There are also the rest of the displays beyond visual, all of which are fairly easily recognizable. And would probably have to be duplicated by any caster trying to fake psionics.
I don’t think we disagree in relation to commoner perceptions of magic. In fact, I think that from a metagame perspective the commoner view of magic is more accurate than that of the veiled alliance.
I think that Nicky Rea (writer of D&P) messed up when writing that a wizard wouldn’t know the difference between preserving and defiling. Also, by introducing the alternative energy sources, Nicky Rea created a class of uber preservers, basically tuning the old preservers into a type of defiler lite (+ loads more hypocrisy).
1 Like
We can have different point of view. This isn’t something wrong 
But give me some quote from novels or game-books, on which you base your point of view, that knowledge of the differences between the two styles of magic is more widely known or recognized intuitively or otherwise.
I like any sources or other interpretations, because this always is other way to narrative functions and interesant points for creating scenarios. But some quotes or other elements would be nice, as base to other interpretation.
I’m not sure what you want from me. I conceded that commoners do not make a distinction between defiling and preserving. All arcane casters are hated equally.
In terms of wizards themselves not making a distinction between defiling and preserving, that is mentioned in Defilers and Preservers and there only.
In terms of metagaming, that is from the perspective of people looking at the issue from outside the setting (meaning us), defiling and preserving are matters of degree not substance. Preserving takes the essence of plant life also, it just does so in a more measured manner than defiling.
If we compare to the alternative energy sources, both defiling and preserving are unforgivable. Compare to the real life burning of coal vs gas. Burning coal could be the equivalent of defiling, while burning gas could be the equivalent of preserving. Both take a toll on the environment, but the damage is of magnitudes of difference. But let’s say there was fusion power (one of the alternative energy introduced in Defilers and Preservers), then either coal or gas should be unacceptable to a reasonable person.
I hope this is understandable.
Besides the over the top power level that sorcery can achieve (truly a goal for the power hungry Rajaat) as compared to other sources of power, I’d argue the following were crucial factors:
-
the Way is extraordinary, it’s like a superhero’s plot-driven powers, but (besides years of practice) requires innate talent
-
clerical magic and druidcraft are powerful, but (besides years of practice) require to be accepted, and stay in the good graces of, some ill-defined elemental entity or spirit of the land
-
sorcery has apparently no externally-imposed limits set upon it, giving ever more impressive results the more powerful the user gets (consider how like a god Rajaat is depicted in the Denning and Abbey novels) and it’s free to be learnt by anyone, be they smart and dedicated enough; no need for innate talent or permission from on high
Sorcery is, quite literally, a science, and neither the gods of old nor the machinations of men can stop you learning it. This is still true in the current age of Athas, thousands of years after its discovery. These sorcerers (scientists of sorts) still populate the world, hacking at the science of sorcery, learning new tricks.
NOTE: Sorry if someone already pointed this out. I stopped reading the thread halfway in. Write, or lose what you want to communicate.
4 Likes
Oh, and I believe sorcery can heal, albeit not through the casting of a spell.
A sorcerous ritual could syphon health from willing or unwilling donors. Many donors for one person healed.
The one precedent we have for this might be Nibenay’s people rounding up unfortunates to be sacrificed to make Dhojakt well again.
The Way can eventually heal certain of its practitioners.
Devotees of the elements, and guardians of the land, can easily heal themselves and anyone.
Templars I don’t recall, but probably can’t heal.
Wizards can’t heal, but there’s always transference of energy.
1 Like
Just throwing in a mechanical-rule comment here from 3.x edition rules - arcane magic can heal, it’s on the bard’s spell list… which means that from a 3.x rules point of view, all Dark Sun bards could automatically be healers. (If they know the spell, that is.)
Not sure if that fits at all with the novels or lore, however… as usual, I am not informed enough to weigh in on story side of things.
It’s been a while since I’ve taken a good look at the 3.5e Dark Sun Core Rules, but if I recall correctly, Dark Sun bards do not have spellcasting.
Oh, yeah, I should look over the core book when talking about DS specific stuff. =P
Apologies, I am so used to viewing the body of psionics material as a whole in 3.x, thus that attitude bleeds over into all my discussions about D&D, even when I should be trying to limit myself to setting specific stuff.
The topic is even specified “in setting” so that is totally my bad.
There is some useful psionics stuff from the Eberron setting that helps bring psionics a bit closer to magic in terms of utility. Secrets of Sarlona is one such product, I believe.
1 Like
Correct. A number of common spells were presented with conversion into psionic powers. As is typical of a WotC product, they missed some standard information in the conversion. However, it was minor and many people do not bother even using the portion they missed, so it is generally not considered a big deal by most.
1 Like
If you don’t mind me asking, what was missed?
This comes back to my earlier point-- Eberron and Dark Sun were both heavily entwined with their respective editions’ versions of psionics. I believe the significant differences in their portrayals in the respective books from each setting owes itself to these edition changes.
But it also means, conversely, bringing in 3.5e edition psionics rules to Dark Sun runs the risk of changing the setting quite a bit. Maybe not in terms of sources of the power, but the motivations and uses of said power.
I know some folks on this forum like to argue that 3.5e magic needs to be nerfed. But compared to 2nd edition magic, it already has been nerfed! (and psionics have been drastically amped up) As others have pointed out before in this comment thread, 3.5e psionics has its own version of fireball which is slightly superior, as well as its own version of wish. In that context, the argument that people are pursuing arcane magic purely for power has been to some extent undermined.
I like Pennarin’s argument of “it’s science, and anyone can do it” as a way to bolster up magic’s place in the setting again. The problem there, however, is that it’s not supported by the way it’s discussed in the books and how it’s treated by society.
After all, why bother learning forbidden knowledge that could potentially speed along destroying the world if you already have access to psionic abilities which can produce many of the same effects? Perhaps it is easier, but if that’s the case then why do so few learn defiling, let alone preserving?
3 Likes