How are Psionics and Magic different (in setting)?

Setting
#41

I’m not sure what you want from me. I conceded that commoners do not make a distinction between defiling and preserving. All arcane casters are hated equally.

In terms of wizards themselves not making a distinction between defiling and preserving, that is mentioned in Defilers and Preservers and there only.

In terms of metagaming, that is from the perspective of people looking at the issue from outside the setting (meaning us), defiling and preserving are matters of degree not substance. Preserving takes the essence of plant life also, it just does so in a more measured manner than defiling.

If we compare to the alternative energy sources, both defiling and preserving are unforgivable. Compare to the real life burning of coal vs gas. Burning coal could be the equivalent of defiling, while burning gas could be the equivalent of preserving. Both take a toll on the environment, but the damage is of magnitudes of difference. But let’s say there was fusion power (one of the alternative energy introduced in Defilers and Preservers), then either coal or gas should be unacceptable to a reasonable person.

I hope this is understandable.

#42

Besides the over the top power level that sorcery can achieve (truly a goal for the power hungry Rajaat) as compared to other sources of power, I’d argue the following were crucial factors:

  • the Way is extraordinary, it’s like a superhero’s plot-driven powers, but (besides years of practice) requires innate talent

  • clerical magic and druidcraft are powerful, but (besides years of practice) require to be accepted, and stay in the good graces of, some ill-defined elemental entity or spirit of the land

  • sorcery has apparently no externally-imposed limits set upon it, giving ever more impressive results the more powerful the user gets (consider how like a god Rajaat is depicted in the Denning and Abbey novels) and it’s free to be learnt by anyone, be they smart and dedicated enough; no need for innate talent or permission from on high

Sorcery is, quite literally, a science, and neither the gods of old nor the machinations of men can stop you learning it. This is still true in the current age of Athas, thousands of years after its discovery. These sorcerers (scientists of sorts) still populate the world, hacking at the science of sorcery, learning new tricks.

NOTE: Sorry if someone already pointed this out. I stopped reading the thread halfway in. Write, or lose what you want to communicate.

4 Likes
#43

Oh, and I believe sorcery can heal, albeit not through the casting of a spell.

A sorcerous ritual could syphon health from willing or unwilling donors. Many donors for one person healed.

The one precedent we have for this might be Nibenay’s people rounding up unfortunates to be sacrificed to make Dhojakt well again.

The Way can eventually heal certain of its practitioners.
Devotees of the elements, and guardians of the land, can easily heal themselves and anyone.
Templars I don’t recall, but probably can’t heal.
Wizards can’t heal, but there’s always transference of energy.

1 Like
#44

Just throwing in a mechanical-rule comment here from 3.x edition rules - arcane magic can heal, it’s on the bard’s spell list… which means that from a 3.x rules point of view, all Dark Sun bards could automatically be healers. (If they know the spell, that is.)

Not sure if that fits at all with the novels or lore, however… as usual, I am not informed enough to weigh in on story side of things.

#45

It’s been a while since I’ve taken a good look at the 3.5e Dark Sun Core Rules, but if I recall correctly, Dark Sun bards do not have spellcasting.

#46

Oh, yeah, I should look over the core book when talking about DS specific stuff. =P

Apologies, I am so used to viewing the body of psionics material as a whole in 3.x, thus that attitude bleeds over into all my discussions about D&D, even when I should be trying to limit myself to setting specific stuff.

The topic is even specified “in setting” so that is totally my bad.

#47

There is some useful psionics stuff from the Eberron setting that helps bring psionics a bit closer to magic in terms of utility. Secrets of Sarlona is one such product, I believe.

1 Like
#48

Correct. A number of common spells were presented with conversion into psionic powers. As is typical of a WotC product, they missed some standard information in the conversion. However, it was minor and many people do not bother even using the portion they missed, so it is generally not considered a big deal by most.

1 Like
#49

If you don’t mind me asking, what was missed?

#50

This comes back to my earlier point-- Eberron and Dark Sun were both heavily entwined with their respective editions’ versions of psionics. I believe the significant differences in their portrayals in the respective books from each setting owes itself to these edition changes.

But it also means, conversely, bringing in 3.5e edition psionics rules to Dark Sun runs the risk of changing the setting quite a bit. Maybe not in terms of sources of the power, but the motivations and uses of said power.

I know some folks on this forum like to argue that 3.5e magic needs to be nerfed. But compared to 2nd edition magic, it already has been nerfed! (and psionics have been drastically amped up) As others have pointed out before in this comment thread, 3.5e psionics has its own version of fireball which is slightly superior, as well as its own version of wish. In that context, the argument that people are pursuing arcane magic purely for power has been to some extent undermined.

I like Pennarin’s argument of “it’s science, and anyone can do it” as a way to bolster up magic’s place in the setting again. The problem there, however, is that it’s not supported by the way it’s discussed in the books and how it’s treated by society.

After all, why bother learning forbidden knowledge that could potentially speed along destroying the world if you already have access to psionic abilities which can produce many of the same effects? Perhaps it is easier, but if that’s the case then why do so few learn defiling, let alone preserving?

3 Likes
#51

Interestingly, if you take the Prism Pentad lore about psionics as gospel, then psionics is something you can do as long as you’ve got the smarts and the dedication to learn it. Yeah, there are naturals and wild talents out there, but hard work at it really makes the difference. Compare Tithian in The Verdant Passage to Agis (who if I recall correctly studied at the same psionic institution). Agis is far more proficient. Yet later we see that Tithian is able to become skilled in the psionic arts - when he applies himself.

This reminds me of my own life. In junior high school I got kicked out of Japanese language class because I got a zero on the test. I switched to French and did OK. Yet later as an adult I learned Japanese, became fluent, and lived in Japan. The difference was dedication. Psionics in Dark Sun is the same.

Anyway, I’m not sure we can really get into the motivations of people using magic. The ideology of the Veiled Alliance is internally inconsistent. They talk a good game, but ultimately someone that doesn’t use magic at all is more pure than them.

Of course, at a certain level of power, magic + psionics can reverse the damage of defiling. Here is Replenish Land, adapted from Legends of Athas.

Replenish Land [Epic] [Psionic Enchantment]
Your use your psionics bolstered arcane energy to restore the land.

Prerequisites: Ability to cast 9th level spells and manifest 6th level powers.

Benefit: You can reverse the effects of defiling magic. You can sacrifice an arcane spell to revitalize the area by increasing terrain type by one category in a 5-foot radius per spell level sacrificed (a defiled area becomes desolate).

Besides some of the avangions mentioned in Dark Sun supplements, when have you ever heard of a VA member learning psionics in tandem with magic? Although it must be concedes that a reason for this is the 2E dual classing quirk.

Someone else mentioned that psionics lacks necromancy and illusions. Psionics might have a decent approximation of fireball, but that is an exception to the norm. Mages are far better at blasting evocation type spells.

#52

I do not mind at all! =D

If I recall correctly (off the top of my head), they failed to provide the information on psionic displays.
As such, when I included those powers in the Master Psionic List, I provided my own suggestions for which displays should be used, based on the previously provided spell school to psionic discipline conversion list that appears in other material.

1 Like
#53

That actually touches on some of the reasons for my strong anti-magic stance, especially within the context of Dark Sun. Based on what little of the lore I do know, magic is scarce, secretive, actively hunted and shunned, and has been that way for hundreds of years, with the notable exceptions of the SKs and whomever they deign to protect - which works because they are seen as too powerful (in most cases).
Psionics on the other hand have been open, accepted, encouraged, and integrated into society. Therefore, sheer generational adaptive pressure alone dictates that psionics should be widespread and commonly used for everyday things in Athasian society.

Psionics has been made closer in power (if still slightly weaker overall) to magic in 3e, and even learned from the mistakes the magic system made in 3.5, thus resulting in a noticeably superior psionics system compared to the still unfixed magic system. Even restricting to core books, magic alone can easily break most stories and campaigns without ever needing a 9th level spell. (I’m looking at you, Candle of Invocation!) Do note that the psionics system still has not addressed ALL the issues from the magic system, so it still has problems. (But at least it finally completely ditched that Vancian methodology!.

2nd edition magic had up to 12 level spells (including such gems as Apothesis which allows one to ascend to Godhood - didn’t Rajat want that? - and Lock/Unlock Crystal Sphere which does exactly what it says - and implies that someone did exactly that to Athas).
And while epic magic could theoretically match up to some of the individual spells, there are a few 2e spells which basically cannot be reconstructed with even epic level magic. So the step down in overall power level of magic from 2e to 3e is definitely a thing.

I think that honestly, only the criminal, insane, power-hungry, and/or stupid should use magic in Dark Sun. It should not be available to PCs at all, unless you toady up to a templar - ergo as a DM option. The entire bulk of material on magic from the Core book should be moved out of that book, and a DSDMG should be made containing all the How to Play various ages, Lore-history-setting stuff needed for backgrounds, and the magic stuff, in addition to the regular DMG type offerings.

I think that there should be a psionic only version of that heal defilement effect.

Illusions in psionics are super limited and tend to be single target and mostly internal only.

There is a way to become a psionic undead, but other than severing/destroying undead and their connection to their energy source, there does not appear to be much existing mechanics about raising the dead via psionic means.

CoughWilderCough

1 Like
#54

Why do it? Unless I am mistaken you just brushed and put aside a cornerstone of the Dark Sun setting.

That part of DS is an allegory of the real world. We actually destroy our world despite knowing we are destroying it.

Sorcery as practiced by defilers, specifically, is exactly like Earth’s consumerism and non-eco friendly expansion into wild ecosystems.

We like confort, wealth, and so do defilers, despite knowing the consequences. Sadira believed that defiling once was excusable to save a thousand lives, after all.

5 Likes
#55

Spell “Karsus’s avatar” for Forgotten Realms was source, why in next ages higher level of magic was locked by Mystryl/Mystra. This goddess have power to limitation possibility of magic cuz she controll a Weave. IDK do similar event had place in other worlds with classical magic, but most of them have similar mechanism “how magic work” (transfer and transformation energy from astral, ethernal and other spheres), so maybe only actions of Mystryl/Mystra can have influence on whole standard multiversum.

BUT because in Athas we have other mechanism “how magic work” (steal energy from plants and other living functions) in theory possible should be creating spells of 40 level. Main problem would be only “do I will have neccessary num of plants”. I can image, that great defilers can escape from Athas and use whole flore from forest-planet to create spell greater, than a Weave can give.

2 Likes
#56

I’d argue not. Different crystal spheres (ie: campaign settings for the most part) have different rules for magic - Oerth, Toril and Eberron all have an inherent magical Weave that you draw upon by default. Krynn is (or tends to be) governed by the 3 gods of magic. Aebrynis (Birthright) requires a portion of divine or elven blood to use anything powerful. Just because magic works off life force on Athas doesn’t mean you can use that same force on a different world if the laws of magic function differently there.

On this board @redking gave a great example of how Dregoth encountered the differing magical power sources during his sojourn among the Outer Planes (it was his short stories about Dregoth on the PLanes…I forget the thread title).

3 Likes
#57

Right. You have to ask why magical energy is stolen from plants on Athas. All the other settings have some mystical source of magical energy that mages can draw upon and rules created from on high, as you mentioned.

This one. I’ve got to get around to finishing it.

2 Likes
#58

In “Uncaged: Faces of Sigil” we have person “Jemorille the Exile”. He claims many things about magic in other worlds, eg to have counseled Rajaat about magic. Even if he lied about this (this is probably - his stories look as impossible) - I think, that he should know defiling and using this. He know Rajaat, that he is connected with creation of magic in Athas and his motivation (restore the world to his forsake brethren). This isn’t common knowadle in Sigil or multiversum - faction Harmonium know title “Champions of Rajaat” but think that this were “bunch of bashers” and they have wanted “eliminate chaos and bring peace”. Great organization (with influences in whole multiversum) have wrong infos about great event in isolated world, but random non-athasian know more and deeper? Something should be…

Jemorille knows too much to be just a coincidence. But this is still “circumstantial, imprecise evidence” not unquestionable evidence. Therefore I think, that also in other worlds athasian wizards should have options to defiling.

I don’t remember, do in official books about DS were notes about travels to other worlds for wizards. Maybe some other?

1 Like
#59

Whether or not that would work in somewhere like Oerth or Eberron, it wouldn’t work on Toril - Mystra has absolute control over the Weave and can bar other forms of magic (as she did with 10th, 11th and 12th level spells after Karsus stupidly assumed Mystryl’s power). Neither the post-Netheril Mystra, nor the ascended MIdnight, is going to let some offworlder defiler start lying waste to Toril. You get magical power through Mystra’s Weave, or Shar’s Shadow Weave.

Nor would it work on Aebrynis because an Athasian defiler simply doesn’t have the connection to the land that would let them use ‘True Magic’ and access Mebhaighl. You might be able to access the schools Magicians do - illusion and diviniation, but that would be the absolute stretch.

1 Like
#60

The Planescape boxed set also says that lower plane fiends respect Athasian defilers because their magic is so destructive, or something along those lines. Despite this, I find defiling elsewhere to be implausible.

The same publication more or less calls Dragonlance Order of High Sorcery mages losers. I think you have to take it with a grain of salt.
.

I’m pretty sure that whole section is supposed to be tongue in cheek, like an easter egg in a video game and not supposed to be taken seriously at all.

If you take it at face value, Rajaat didn’t invent magic (on Athas), he is a monstrous fraud that was taught magic by someone else.

Here is a write-up of this section from another website.

Jemorille the Exile
A rilmani of the Spire, a being of no little Power – and no little Modesty.

Jemorille the Exile is an argenach rilmani, one of the metal-themed planar beings representing Neutrality in the Planescape cosmos. His entry begins thus: “The Lady of Pain does not keep the peace in Sigil. I do.”

Yes, this entry is from Jemorille’s own in-character perspective and that’s a bit of an issue, as it’s not clear how much of an unreliable narrator he’s supposed to be. Anyway, he wastes no time talking about how he’s the one who shapes the fate of Sigil and protects it, and how the Lady basically does what he wants because he only even lets her see the problems he chooses.

“You don’t believe me. I can see it in your thoughts; such is my power.” Odd comment, given that reading minds is scarcely a rare capability in the planes, and it’s a low-level arcane spell for spellcasters to boot.

He talks about how he brings Balance in the Cage and beyond. He also mentions he’s “known to some” as the Exile and that this is really a poor choice of moniker because he’s not an exile at all, dontchaknow, but here of his own will.

Jemorille talks about his record on the Prime Material Plane, which is a who’s who of the other major settings of the time along with accompanying serious fuck-ups that are totally not his fault, guys. He claims he’s responsible for the Temple of Elemental Evil, Dark Sun’s planet Athas going kaboom (due to teaching Rajaat magic), and the really racist Mongol Horde analogue in the Forgotten Realms. Each is pitched as a marvel of his manipulation plus a denial of the bad bits being his responsibility. It’s not clear whether any of this is actually true.

How did he end up where he is now? The aurumachs, rulers of the rilmani, sent him after taking note of his accomplishments.

Anyway, he influences the kriegstanz to control the factions and thus the whole city. The Lady is basically his tool as he manipulates people to get her attention (or not); he also claims to be the puppet-master of Shemeshka the Marauder, as he changes himself to appear as Colcook, one of her bodyguards. He hunts he takes many other roles in the city as well.

He even says the “fiendish conflict known as the Blood War is another of my fancies”, claiming he keeps it going to keep the two sides balanced, and hence justifying slipping a cross-entry reference to the celestial conspiracy in the book into this entry.

He finishes with a commentary about the game of chess, and how he feels an affinity for its depiction of “lords waging subtle war through the strategic manipulation of lesser beings”, finishing with addressing the reader to make their next move, because the last move is always his.

Quick chant, well, he’s an argenach; no surprises in his stat block. Strong, laden with a massive armoury of spell-like abilities, can fire neem-beams of silvery light. Apparently he can be found all across Sigil in any guise but his claims of being Colcook are indeed legit, so he’s often doing that. “He tries to manipulate others with subtlety, but he’s sometimes more obvious than he realizes.”

In a surprise to no-one, he doesn’t go in for fighting much as he thinks it’s beneath him, and uses his lesser powers of suggestion or illusion rather than reveal his more potent abilities.

Impressions: The problem with Jemorille is that the write-up isn’t clear as to what’s actually going on, and because there are several possibilities, it doesn’t support any of them with enough material. Is Jemorille telling the truth? Is he delusional? Is it somewhere in between?

I have an enormous problem with Jemorille as presented, if you take his claims to be true; he’s an enormous fuck-you to all the different settings referenced, and to two key elements of Planescape, basically making them the shitty diversions of one arsehole who now hangs around a pub in Sigil. Hahah, yeah, you all thought there were cool setting elements in your games but really they’re a bored argenach puppeteering you all for no discernible purpose, and he’s not even an interesting villain with a cool agenda. What a disappointment.

I think it’s fairly evident that things are not as presented, but purely getting Jemorille’s viewpoint makes it hard to use. Chances are that all the things he references are either nothing to do with him, or places he made fuck-ups, and the aurumachs called him back then genuinely exiled him because they’re tired of him screwing up. Thing is, ‘exiled rilmani’ should be a cool story hook, but Jemorille’s just not really doing anything interesting with it. He’s dicking about pretending to be Shemeshka’s minion—and that’s really his core role in this book’s networks and plot maps, being a guy who passes on info about Shemeshka, and it’s totally unnecessary because they could have had Colcook be treacherous but not a random rilmani.

Jemorille as a lunatic who has retreated into delusions about his past achievements and his present could work, but he needs a meaningful driving agenda, and some good reasons to actually interact with PCs. As-is, he’s only ever someone else in passing, trying to manipulate folks for… nebulous reasons of Balance, so you’re not likely to even have a meaningful scene with him. Imagine if he was a rilmani exiled for, well, what would get a rilmani taken off the Xmas card list? Becoming too extreme ? Taking interesting non-Balance views and agendas? Just losing his mind over constantly trying to keep all the plates spinning in perfect Neutrality only for the forces of existence to constantly knock them off. I dunno, he needs something . Right now he’s a non-entity.

Except for the part where he’s for some reason telling all this shit to a random guy in a pub, including the fact he’s Colcook, which makes no sense and basically compromises what little conspiracy stuff he’s got going on. So, I guess that’s another solid mark against ‘actual mastermind’ and for ‘delusional cretin’.

Long quote but well worth the read.