Lol, he is indeed built different, at least as far as his story goes…
1 Like
I prefer not to get to hung up on game mechanics, at least when it comes to story. CbtSS wanted Dregoth to be as close to a full 30th level dragon as possible, and that is why the story has him assassinated when he was, at 29th. Sure, it breaks the rules, and though we might excuse this for various reasons, ultimately it was obviously for the sake of story
As to the “Great One” thing Xelu, it is impressive when other monarchs like the sorcerer-kings respectfully address Borys in this way. It seems an expectation as well. Even among the surviving Champions hee is no longer a peer, and issues commands to the SMs, not requests.
As to Borys being defeated by the Heroes of Tyr, I rank the heroes highly. At the time of the battle, I conjecture:
- Sadira, default 20th level sun wizardess, and 14th level preserver during the night
- Rikus, 17th level gladiator, wielding high artifact Scourge of Rkard (vorpal +6)
- Caelum, 20th level sun cleric
- Neeva, 15th level gladiator, wielding super imbued axe
- Tithian, 17th level templar, dual-classed 20th level psionicist, dual-classed 13th level defiler, wielding the Dark Lens, the most powerful artifact of the campaign world
Fairly formidable. That said, we may speculate on Borys’ strategy, and his lack of utilizing all the resources and followers available at Ur Draxa. A good discussion of this would be interesting. But to keep it simple, we admit that Troy Denning has page limits, and overly complex battles and spell/psionic duels consumes these pages and the patience of the reader. That said, I will simply add that these forums tend to ascribe far too much power and near invulnerability to high level beings, especially like the SMs and Borys. Yes, they are extremely powerful, personally. But they are not gods. Lynn Abbey effectively made Hamanu into a deity, and I did not prefer her interpretation.
Mistakes can be the end of even advanced beings. From Dragon Kings, I always liked how Throkrat of Balic was seemingly a 22nd level dragon who was stoned to death by the mob. Hundreds of stones start to get thrown at you, and you can’t get a spell cast or psionic power initiated. And so he died. It’s fairly realistic. As Plortius notes above, Abalach-Re and Borys were only destroyed with the intervention of Rajaat’s artifact weapons, and even then only because Rajaat’s essence poured out to cover his hated former disciples. This was a huge reason both fights were successful, for without this effect from Rajaat, on both counts it is likely the sorcerer-queen and the Dragon would have prevailed.
AD&D 2nd Edition is not comic books or video games where 21st+ level characters are ascendant and all but untouchable by lower level assailants. In AD&D kobolds can take down full adventuring parties of 12th-14th level, like in Dragon Mountain, and a foolish high level warrior can be taken down by a full and trained column of 0th level soldiers. Even the SMs can be taken down by bold assailants who are in other ways much junior to them. This is why the SMs are routinely surrounded by a great many powerful guards. I certainly favor that even the very mighty of Dark Sun remain ultimately vulnerable to those who dare. That is why I like Dark Sun, for even the desperate and oppressed, at the edge of their ability, are able to slay an arrogant sorcerer-king, and thereby save themselves, their city, and change the world.
Kalak never saw it coming.
3 Likes
In this case why have this discussion? You asked questions, but you prefer story over mechanics as the overriding feature that defines your view of the world, those are guardrails and narrow the scope of the argument. So it doesnt matter what holes are poked, you are going to default to ‘story’ anyway to fill them. You will find inevitably find people who agree with your views. In the 30 years since this stuff has come out, we are not the first to bring this stuff up, its been argued before.
But its like I mentioned in an earlier post - viewpoints to fit your narrative. BTW This is fine, many do it, and if it works for you (and others as well) go for it. But it does make these post pointless if you already have a set view, I mean are you looking for validation or like-mindedness?
1 Like
I’ve always liked this pictures half-giant. Like he’s shouting after the fact " Look out that Mul is throwing his spear at us!!"
2 Likes
It is one of my favorite Baxa compositions, Kalak of Tyr. Kalak’s violated hubris makes me chuckle, and the terror of the woman and dramatic sense of failure and anger of the half-giants invites a cruel smirk on my face.
1 Like
I can resolve this. While terms like “Great One” and other honorifics are used for the Sorcerer Monarch, in The Cerulean Storm the SMs use familiar language towards each other, such as using their names, and reserve the honorifics for Borys. It’s unlikely that Borys micromanages the SMs, acting as a Roman style princeps, the first among equals.
I would argue that the team you present may be able to bring down a single Sorcerer Monarch. But the Sorcerer Monarch’s in coordination? Not likely.
I am reminded of Kalak psionically disintegrating an incompetent templar on the steps of the ziggurat. The manifestation was so powerful that it had the side effect of Tithian feeling it in his mind. So while the SMs may not be gods, they aren’t pushovers either.
The real issue of this scenario is that Abalach-Re was there at all. And what happened certainly doesn’t match what we know of Abalach-Re being a wily mountebank. I speculated previously that she is not dead.
2 Likes
There certainly are other 30th-level Dragons out there, I mean, how many PCs have played, Dark Sun, past 20th-level and made it all the way to 30th-level Dragon?
3 Likes
Ha! I thought everyone did. Are you saying you didn’t, old Ral?
3 Likes
Dark-Sun’s been out over thirty-years; if you play every Friday-night, and all day weekends, you should be at 30th in no time; say, everyone else plays Dark Sun two and a half days a week too, right?
3 Likes
Depending on the outcome of Grave Circumstances (reproduced and edited here), there may be another 30th level (2E) or 10th rank (3.5E) dragon in the north of the Tyr Region.
If you go by the original boxed set, there is a lot more latitude for other sorcerer monarchs out there. The Hinterlands are basically removed in the revised campaign setting, but if you keep the Hinterlands in your game there is a lot of potential. In my humble opinion, the Deadlands make a lot more sense as part of the Hinterlands. The Deadlands in this scenario separate part of Athas from the Tablelands, make gives creedence to the Wandering writing that he had never heard of someone returning from the Hinterlands.
1 Like
I loved the expanded map when 3.5 came out and I really got giddy when the internet came around and I discovered that world-map.
And given how, Borys, Kalid, Dregoth and Esturren became or tried to become dragons, it seems NPCs don’t have the patience to advance to 30th level through XP.
1 Like
Hmm. I found it interesting that it was implied that the process of becoming an advanced being allows one to shape themselves. That further implies that the dragon form of body is actually optional, and that the shaping is either controllable or can be influenced by the one performing the ritual. Again, that all implies that the forms chosen (dragon, lion, avangion, other) are being guided by cultural, belief, and historical based sources.
2 Likes
I mean if we imply enough anything is possible…it still doesnt make it true.
The issue is TD gave SMs wildly different and strange features. But if something is called a dragon- there is a certain implied(using your word) view of that form: scaly, has tail, wings, dragons breath, big, etc.
But these ‘dragons’ look anything but. Why not just call the SMs advanced being and be done, why even require a metamorphosis?
TDs novels totally shit over Dragon Kings ideas and Dragon Kings ignores the novels. Its like two folks stop getting along and ignored each others contributions.
As for the dragon, it is stated in one of tge revised books that there is only one Dragon (Borys).
1 Like
In 3.5e, you can handily sidestep this problem as I did with my Advanced Being Framework. Essentially, the prospective advanced being selects the type they want for their metamorphosis. The main thing is whether it is a defiler metamorphosis or a preserver metamorphosis. And no longer is “dragon” type evil for some reason.
And -
So like you said, we have advanced beings. There is a metamorphosis but they metamorphose according to their individual preferences. So you can have an avangion dragon, and a ravager fey, both advanced beings, categorised by their avangion or ravager advanced being status, not by their type.
3 Likes
Doesn’t automatically make the idea false either.
2 Likes
I agree, thus my suggestion to call them something else other than ‘dragon’ - because of the visual connotations the word ‘dragon’ carries with it.
2 Likes
Advanced Being works for me. Technically speaking, the gaming material refers to “defiler metamorphosis” and “preserver metamorphosis”.
2 Likes
Given the 2,000 to three-thousand years, surely someone else has figured it out.
1 Like
Sorry, wonky forum issues. I stated previously that perhaps there are other dragons in other regions besides the SKs and the Dragon Tyr because of these reasons:
-
Mentions by Nok and one old monster Manuel that mentions Athasian Dragons and hints that there are others in far away lands.
-
The Tablelands region is stated by many sources to be similar in size to the Southwestern United States, therefore providing much more territory for others.
-
What if the Dragon’s Frenzy and the mass defiling are subjective and the transformation is different for different beings.
It is true that the Tyr-Region is the same size as the American-SW, but, Athas does’t appear to be as old as the Earth, leading my to believe, geologically-speaking, there were as many meteor-impacts or volcanic-events to bring metals to the surface from the core and mantle. That is why Athas is metal-poor.