There are many high level psions and clerics in the Dead Lands, many in the City of 1000 Dead, but they are not rulers of nations. However, much of the Dead Lands is dominated by former students/ researchers of Rajaat, thus the large number of high level wizards.
About the 3 version, so GAL’s Project is simply “not canon”, and the other 2 version are connected, so they’re the “official ones” (like “Life Shaping Handbook”, based upon “Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs”).
The 3rd edition levels seems more convincing, powerwise. Since those undeads exists for thousand of years, it’s normal if they’re epic.
Confronting their 2E with their 3E stats…
Why Qwith (a necromancer/psionicist) became only an arcane caster?
And with Gretch as a morg (you “took a third option” since fluff and stats were discordant about the fact that he was a Kaisharga or a Zhen?)… does it mean that “someone” transformed him in an undead?
And since those 4 rulers are in a “double stalemate” with each other and also with the bugdead nations, I think that even the S’thag zagath emperor, the Successor, will be quite poweful.
Thanks for the headsup on the 3E stats Band. From the looks of things Gretch is a prime candidate for Championhood/Metamorphosis. Was he on the reserve benches (in case one of the Champs met an untimely end)? Was he way too ambitious and got bitchslapped to the South by Rajaat? Does he know of and hunger for Draconic Transformation (and also know that as undead he can never achieve it)?
Sorry for the barrage, just wondering about a statline that’s tailor made for an aspiring Dragon (or Avangion, or some sort of unholy Grayborn Metamorphosis) 
Gretch was in the south (which was tundra in the green age, btw) completely independently of the planar experiment and Rajaat’s shenanigans. The last contact he had with any of them (pre-cataclysm) was when he fled Rajaat’s school after killing some students. This was when rajaat was still publicly teaching preserving magic, while secretly teaching defiling to his chosen few. Gretch was all salty because he wasn’t picked to learn defiling, so he tried it on his own, creating necromancy in the process.
I’m pretty sure this is no longer the case according to some of the 3e stuff atlas.org released, but per the original 2e material it was just coincidence the gate experiment created the obsidian plain on his doorstep.
Also bear in mind that Gretch is actually the overlord of I think 7 other “kingdoms,” each ruled by one of his undead creations.
Actually, considering how his transformation happened, I can see why they went with making him a more in 3e. When he underwent the process, the last bit was done at the hands of his 7 creations, and it’s stated that his inability to increase his power is due to a flaw one of them introduced during the process. So yeah, I can see him as a morg. I still think Kulrath should be a kaisharga, though.
If any of them would be more “champion”-like than the rest, I would pick Qwith. She directly worked under Rajaat as part of his inner circle and led the planar experiments for centuries. Considering that in established canon the students Rajaat chose to teach defiling and admit into his inner circle were all accomplished psions before he taught them magic, it makes sense that Qwith should have a hefty amount of psion ability herself, as it was in the 2e docs. I really don’t agree with making her a straight-up arcane user in 3e and think it’s a mistake on the team’s part.
The team should release the 2E version to the regulars here.
I already posted the 2e versions. I’m not part of athas.org, but I’m one of the rare beasts who’s been sitting on the original docs for nearly the past 2 decades. Which kind of puts me in an awkward spot, but so long as nobody gets upset with me sharing bits and pieces to answer questions, I don’t mind doing so.
Wait, I assumed you meant the 2e stats of the “big 4” but if you mean the 2e version of the complete manuscript, I think that’s a big no-no for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it’s still a copyrighted product and releasing it as such is beyond the scope of the agreement athas.org is founded upon. But it sounds like the d20 version isn’t too far off as it is.
I’m talking about releasing the manuscript to the regulars here, not a widespread release.
Think about it - only the very hardcore are left.
I think that ALL of us are envious of you, lucky man XD
But I understand why copyright and other stuff “lock” you from releasing the whole manuscript. At least we’ll have the d20 version, that will be a worthy successor.
So, Greth was made a morg by his 7 “lieutenants”, discovered the flaw in the morg creation process (least not the fact that you depend on someone else to become a morg), so developed the ritual to become a Kaisharga (a process that the caster can do with no outside help, and also a better template, rulewise).
Greth was already “locked” in his morgh state, but Kulrath discovered the Kaisharga ritual and used on himself.
One last thought. There’re a “defiler advanced being” (Dragon), a preserver one (Avangion) and with Legends of Athas a Black one (Shadow Shifter). Since the bigs of the Dead Lands are already templated undead, the athas.org team considered “redundant” to create a “Grey advanced being”? I’m cool with that.
Don’t know. Not my department. I have never read the 2E draft.
That are no stats for any of the NPCs included in Secrets of the Dead Lands, only the summaries that I posted. It is intended to be as rules lite as possible.
No Gretch was not part of the champions. He was supposed to be a preserver student who was too ambitious, and has to flee to the south. While there is a reconciliation with Rajaat, Rajaat never treats him with much respect. There is no mention if he knows of the dragon transformation which would not be developed until years after his death. Also there his limitation on gaining new magical knowledge.
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That’s interesting that the 3e team did that with Gretch re: reconciling with Rajaat. There was nothing like that in the original document.
Since we already have Terrors of the Dead Lands for the crunch. I’m ok with Secrets to be rules lite. After all, a simply “race/class/level” is enough as a guideline for any DM who likes to build stuff.
I don’t know if that’s allowed, but could someone PM me the full AD&D stats (not only class and levels, but abilities and other stuff) of the four rulers?
Yep. I am among those who have these files for almost 2 decades. I still have these on my hard drive.
I’ve been asked never to spread them. Which I did. And as far as I can see, everyone who had the chance to own it, kept their words because I have NEVER seen these files anywhere on the net (and I know how to find things on the net).
So, gentlemen, when shall we see this document ever finished?
Is Athas.org really still planning to release this? That would be awesome but I didn’t think there was much going on officially anymore.
Where can I find a copy of the 2E Secrets of the Dead Lands? I still play 2nd edition Dark Sun.
When though? Been waiting years
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Saaaaaaaaaame… ¤_¤
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