But WotC does not. And I agree that WotC is correct, if their claim that DS is “probematic” can be sustained. You can’t have it both ways. You want to split the baby.
Its one way or the other. Splitting the baby is unjust.
Yes, you could interpret what Kyle said as that, but that’s not what Raddu’s comment above said (the info from his contact), which added more context.
Again, his contact said WotC were worried about what the media would say about the old material, no matter what they did with new material. So that means they thought they would still be taken to task by the media whether or not they fixed the problematic aspects of the material in a new edition. It makes the argument about “splitting the baby” irrelevant.
But I do believe we’re talking in circles. We’ll probably never agree on this point about improving the setting. But that’s fine. We’ll just demonstrate our point…
The problem is that people saying that DS is “problematic” are implicitly calling those people that do not “racist”, “advocates of rape” and so on. This is causing unneeded division in the fan community, people that just want to enjoy a hobby.
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I think this is a good point.
The truth is that if, there are ‘sides’ to be taken, there are individuals who will blanket resort to tribalism arguments or the old ‘Us vs. Them’ tropes to argue a point, usually with one (or five) word liners used to define a person’s whole perspective/being/affiliation.
We no longer engage in nuance (hell, even this is a dirty word now), we often go for the ‘Gotcha’ words to be uttered (whatever they might be) to validate our beliefs of a person and categorize them and thus increase polarization instead of providing avenues for discussion and a venue to perhaps inform/understand/change thoughts, views and ideas with others. We rarely do that anymore, in fact trying this will get you accused of enabling bad conduct.
This is not to say we don’t have some GRADE A shit-stirrers in the FB DS/reddit/discord or other social media sites, I could name a few and they come from both ‘sides’ of the spectrum.
As for 5E Dark Sun not coming, I think many of us were well aware of that for several years now (and have said that in more private forums), but publicly remained positive. I understand KB’s comments validate the ‘doomers,’ but those folks are not playing 5E anyways, so ultimately they’re irrelevant to it, except to proclaim the death/desecration/watering (or some other words used) of Dark Sun if its not continued in their preferred edition.
Lets just enjoy the campaign setting in our own ways and
KEEP HOPE ALIVE!
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I think the larger point is that people used to act in good faith, and in doing so, assume the good faith of others. When people are hasty to assume the worst and throw around accusations, the good faith is not there.
This has vast implications for society beyond just gaming. We see it in the incivility which has become common place.
Good faith should be the basis of what we are doing here. KB has conceded that WotC cannot rely on good faith, not even the good faith of WotC employees. Very unfortunate.
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My first impulse in reaction to all this is to craft an elaborate and high quality table of slave costs from across the Seven City-States.
Manual laborers, artisan-slaves, concubines, slave-soldiers, scholar-slaves, male vs. female costs, eunuchs… on and on, in great detail. Tables regarding maintenance for subsistence food, water and sheltering costs will be provided, especially for the dietary needs of half-giant, thri-kreen, halflings, etc. A special table will juxtapose these purchase and maintenance costs with the cost of comparable hireling of freemen or the slaves of another. Modifier tables for female virginity, youth, accrued injuries, proven fertility, old age, and human sub-races/nationalities will of course be included. Errata on intelligence and wisdom penalties that may accrue among generational slave populations will be available, and tables for the added costs/value for latent psionic talents.
I will of course produce these tables on a cardboard handout for easy reference for the Dungeon Master, and I shall hire a skilled artist to make heavily inspired Dark Sun images for its decoration. It will be a most handsome product, aesthetically pleasing to the eyes and touch. It will be a clearly Dark Sun supplement, using the font and style of original products, yet will not actually say so anywhere. We will all know the truth.
I shall consult the usual references when building this table. In addition to the occasionally mentioned slaves prices from the Prism Pentad etc., I shall be pleased to reference for example the Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2 Ed., which has a delightfully detailed and prolix article on khasi, that is, eunuchs, and the various varieties of such former men. My complete table will be accompanied by a detailed errata pamphlet on the management and lives of the servile classes, city by city, and discussions of the slave culture across the cities, among tribes, and across the Tablelands in general. I will look forward to the special chapter on Ur Draxa.
Once I complete this handsome table and its accompanying pamphlet in a releasable “boxed set”, all professionally prepared for your eager hands, I will be willing to send it to all you gentlemen for lots of money: a premium price for premium work. I will accept your payments to listed privacy crypto coin addresses. I will then send screenshots of the no doubt prodigious sums I will earn, to which I expect you all to contribute, to Kyle Brink. Perhaps the boxed set can be entitled Slavery in the Seven Cities, by Problematic Productions.
The main image on the back of this boxed set will of course be, with a deep nod to The_DMs_Revenge, a masterfully composed image of a man breaking his chains.
“For God’s sake Mark, this is Advanced!”
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Welcome back, phaaf_glien.
When I think of slavery, I think of the ancient civilizations of the bronze and classical ages. When an American thinks of slavery, they think of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and assume that the American descendants of African slaves are offended by the content of the Dark Sun setting. I’ve given up on rational conversation with my American friends.
Big Ernie Gygax burner account energy.
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Good to see you guys keeping up the ship, redking. You and the other leads are surely mighty shipfloaters.
Cheers buddy.
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lol we already have a dark sun slave book. I think its called Working Too Hard.
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Working Too Hard is by Grummore. It was preemptively denied hosting here, however. In fact, no works detailing slave costs will be hosted here.
That’s quite understandable given this site’s official fansite status, as tenuous as that may be. We have benefited from benign neglect over the years.
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Where would someone find “Working Too Hard” by Grunmore
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Considering he shut down his website, it’s now gone, lost to the sands of Athas.
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Wait - what??? When did this happen?
I might have it somewhere. I am travelling overseas and will need to dig through stuff in storage. I can’t find it online anywhere, and archive.org did not save it.
Could someone post it here?
Edit: We should be holding a funeral or something for Siltskimmer dot org, one of the longest standing Dark Sun fan sites on the internet. RIP.
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If someone had Working Too Hard, kindly upload it to the archive of DS works.
I really miss those old school Dark Sun websites. There were some good ones from the late 90s and early 2000s.
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Returning to the theme of the topic: there has been a lot of commentary online, including on this thread, but most people are not listening to what KB is saying. Perhaps what he is saying is better understood when listening to his voice.
I’m not sure it matters. You said it before good will cannot be assumed by WOTC so they would not take a chance on more mature material that would bleed over to other accusations. Anything they do is looked at with multiple viewpoints and the most negative usually bubbles up.
Blueboxrpg made a good statement in his inaugural DS twitch stream regarding slavery in the setting and its portrayal. This is the direction to go, push back and handle the themes without fear but with some acknowledgement of peoples concerns.
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You are 100% right that it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. What I am concerned about is that there are people that aren’t listening to what Kyle Brink is actually saying, which is clear as day, but instead projecting their own viewpoint and casting about for other reasons (and scapegoats). Whenever this subject comes up, there is always the implication that if not some obscure (possibly non-existent) segment of “toxic fandom”, we would have Dark Sun products being published by WotC right now. I wished they would consider what is being said by Kyle Brink, which is consistent with other things said over the years.
The question is: does having slavery as a subject matter in an RPG mean that the writers of the RPG are advocating for slavery? If the answer is no, then there should be no problem. If someone answers yes, they need therapy, not a loud voice in the RPG scene.
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I agree 100%, but the issue is not that. With mass communication now prevalent and almost instantaneous you will inevitable come across people who see it (for whatever reasons) as offensive in nature. Any of the people can pick up the Social Media Megaphone and spout whatever they want and get supporters for their position regardless of the veracity of the statement. Happens everyday.
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