I have rock crabs in mine (large hermit crabs). Long standing joke in my game is their shells are used as helmets in all the Baxa templar art.
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Yup, it’s my old site. Although, I just host works from someone else. And yes, it’s not canon. BUT, it can give ideas and more, when you read it, it sounds like the author may have had a copy of the original files when he wrote.
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What does it miss? Layout? Numbers crunching? Proofreading? Maps? Pictures?
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While I haven’t seen the Souper-Secret Dead Lands unreleased supplement, based on the comments here it seems like there is an issue of the module potentially threatening to change the entire character of the setting. It kind of makes sense: having an entire empire of undead legions hanging over the Tablelands like the Sword of Damocles would surely change everyone’s perspective.
But, as others here have pondered: why not simply fix this by coming up with a compelling reason for the dead to never leave the Dead Lands?
Some ideas I would propose (expanded from other mooted ideas here):
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Perhaps the various undead city states are at each other’s throats, just like the Sorcerer Monarchs. Perhaps they’ve always been at their throats, and the only thing undeath has changed was making their armies recyclable, so nobody ever gets an upper hand.
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Since all of their world has been ruined, perhaps they think the rest of the world has been ruined as well. So they’ve been putting their attention locally.
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Maybe they’re searching for something in the Dead Lands. Perhaps a tremendous source of power (such as a conduit to the Negative Energy Plane, or perhaps some kind of artifact) is still there, and they’re each trying to get to it first.
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Maybe they don’t realise the source of energy that has made them more powerful than other undead is also what is trapping them there in the first place (not unlike Ravenloft).
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Perhaps the reason why they’re only digging up Dead Lands bodies is because there is a particular corpse they need to unlock more of this source of power, or the knowledge they need lies buried with a particular individual who was lost during the Cleansing Wars cataclysm which buried the land in obsidian. Maybe this corpse possesses the knowledge to release them.
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Perhaps there is an order of Bugdead (aided by their living brethren) who are dedicated to keeping the undead locked inside the Dead Lands. Much like in Forgotten Realms with the Knights of Myth Drannor and Tyranthraxus (rememeber The Pool of Radiance series?). This would certainly explain the wardens.
Possibly any combination (or even all) of the above could be true. It seems to me such additions would make the Dead Lands much more fun to play.
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If I recall correctly, this is the actual explanation in the book. I don’t feel it works at all, because so many of the rulers of the Deadlands are extremely powerful Mages and/or Psionicists. Surely at some point they must have cast their senses afar, or just journeyed to the edge of the obsidian.
Many of your other explanations are much better however, and I would use them in a heartbeat over the one in the source material.
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Might just be as simple as Borys kept them in check. While not official, perhaps the Dead Lands attempted a northern incursion a thousand or so years early only for their forces to be decimated by the Dragon and warned never to return.
With the Dragon now dead the Dead Lords may be inclined to try again.
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I’ve run through 2 undead invasions, the first was largely aborted due to a tie to the Dead Lands. Each day traveled away from the Dead Lands involved a Will check of 1 + 10 miles. Each failure reduced the Wisdom by 1d4, they turned back once they started collapsing.
The second attempt was during Dregoth’s Accession, the undead didn’t get hit with the Wis drain, but the party realigned the elemental planes before the undead reached the tablelands and only had to fight small groups of the undead.
The original thought of everyone else being dead worked for awhile. Everyone in close proximity was dead (or hidden by the Dragon) but since he was killed, things started looking a bit different.
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This would fit nicely with my option 4 above.
I suppose that’s what I don’t get.
If we already know the material wasn’t tested and is unfinished, then why not just fix it and release it?
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Yeah, you and everybody else.
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I’ll take a stab at this. Athas.org’s licensing agreement did not allow them to produce official 2e material, only 3e. It is possible that publishing the 2nd edition versions of Dregoth Ascending and Secrets of the Deadlands would be seen as a breach of that agreement, since while several beta copies were made and the books were given to the Overcouncil, it was never officially released by TSR or WOTC. Thus, in order to release Secrets of the Deadlands, it had to be converted to 3rd edition. (Note: I’m not a legal expert, and it has been some time since I tried to understand the agreement between WotC and this site; somebody please correct me if I got anything wrong)
Whatever team was working on it seems to have failed to pass it on to anyone who still visits this website and has the authority to post it. As I mentioned above, I have never seen so much as a page from the 3e version, don’t know who might have a copy at present (a few people on this thread have mentioned having worked on it in the past, but no word on if they possess a copy now), or how much was completed aside from a general sense that a fair bit had been done but it wasn’t finished.
Long story short: unless and until somebody shows up on this thread with a copy of the 3e version that they feel willing to share, I don’t know what can be done. As for why nobody has done so? My best guess is a mix of legal worries (even if the 3e version was completed today, would it be legal to post?), and fatigue from having this project sit in limbo for so long that they aren’t certain anymore that they want to put in the effort to finish it, even if they can find support among the fans here.
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For those who do not follow the DS group on Facebook:
Austin Butcher
I posted this earlier on WotC’s Dark Sun Forum -
It’s been awhile. As you may or may not know, the team at athas.org had dwindled to almost nothing. Our updates had been few and very far between. I want to thank all of you that have stayed with us through these difficult times. On a very positive note, I’ve done some recruiting and have managed to pull together a small but talented group of creators. All of them are huge fans of the game - some are long time fans who have been with the site before and are, after a long hiatus, coming back with new-found enthusiasm; we also have a couple of newcomers to the site.
Perhaps more importantly to you, the fans, we have been able to make some decent progress, despite the impedement of real life obstacles (and the time spent recruiting), on some very long-awaited Dark Sun projects. On that note, I’d like to give an update on the proposed project list for our site. In the months to come, you will notice a shift in focus - from large scale projects (ie. Secrets of the Dead Lands) that take months/years to complete, to a much more frequent release schedule of small projects and articles. As of now, the projects and articles on the table are as follows:
Secrets of the Dead Lands – campaign expansion describing the Dead Lands in detail; needs art and a couple of maps. (PRIORITY – NEARLY FINISHED)
3 interior maps and 2 pieces of art remain and are being worked on (6/19)
The Emissary - companion adventure to SotDL; working on layout, needs some stat block conversion, art and a couple of maps. (PRIORITY – NEARLY FINISHED)
layout and editing nearing completion; 1 piece of art being worked on (with a minimum of 6 needed), 1 encounter map being worked on (with a number still to go) (6/19)
The Anattan Wastes – campaign expansion describing the Anattan Wastes in detail; rough idea, no details; has usable map
The Bandit States - supplement describing the Bandit States in detail; needs to be converted to electronic format; completion information pending
information pending (6/19)
City-State of Balic – supplement describing Balic in detail; appears to be roughly 3/4 of the way done writing-wise but needs editing; needs art; has usable map that needs minor alterations.
City-State of Celik - supplement describing Celik in detail; basically just an outline of ideas, and a bare bones map.
City-State of Kurn - supplement describing Kurn in detail; needs to be reformatted; 3/4 of the way done at most (much smaller than PSoE, so could use more); has unfinished map as possible reference and needs art.
City-State of Raam – supplement describing Raam in detail: rough idea, no details
City-State of Urik - supplement describing Urik in detail; basically just an outline of ideas.
Dark Sun Resource List - expansion on the site list already available to include information from every single product, in regards to locations AND people, plants and creature information, and cultural notations (ie. clothing, customs, laws, etc) - with page references.
information is being compiled with several products still remaining (6/19)
Empire of the Kreen – campaign expansion describing the Kreen Empire in detail; rough idea, no details
Faces of the Dead Lands – supplement describing the personalities of the Dead Lands; needs massive overhaul of stat block information (conversion to 3.5); needs art.
Lost Cities of the Trembling Plains (aka Secrets of the Trembling Plains)- supplement describing the Trembling Plains region in detail; a little more than 3/4 of the way done; has a lot of usable art and a really good map (needs slight modification).
Prison-State of Eldaarich - supplement describing Eldaarich in detail; needs to be reformatted, otherwise writing is roughly 3/4 of the way done; some art is available (though not much), as is a pretty decent map.
document is being edited for errors (6/19)
Regional Rules information - reformatting and massively expanding on the present incarnation to conform more to current models; slightly more than 1/2 complete.
The Scorched Plateau - supplement describing the Scorched Plateau region in detail; completion information pending
information pending (6/19)
Terrors of Athas - reformatting the current release to comply with the most current standard; needs extensive editing; need to add in creatures that were missed last time around; less than 1/4 has been reformatted.
Unseen Ways - an expansion of the psionic rules; not too far off from having been finished, but it needs to be heavily modified, as it pertains to 3.0 rules, if it is to be of any relevance for 3.5.
*at some point, extensive editing is needed on all of our previous releases.
ARTICLE IDEAS
Athasian Hazards – information on using geological events and environmental dangers in a Dark Sun campaign; one-shot or mini-series.
nearing completion, partially edited (6/19)
Classes of Athas - information on adding non-core classes and prestige classes to Dark Sun (modeled after the articles on WotC for FR); limited series to cover available class/prestige class options.
Faces of Athas - updating all official NPCs (from all previous editions, as well as our article material) to the most current 3.5 format, as well as providing additional NPCs, relating to locales or groups; on-going series.
Locales of Athas – expanding on knowledge pertaining to existing sites; on-going series.
New Terrors (working title) - more creatures, with a focus on a more complete ecology (ie. smaller creatures/base life forms; possibly adding information on different species – snakes, lizards, insects, etc.); on-going series.
Plot Hooks – adventure ideas with varying degrees of detail; on-going series.
Racial Substitution/Alternative Class Abilities - as it sounds, but customized for Dark Sun use; limited series (this might be subsumed into the Classes of Athas article series).
Treasures of Athas – more magic items and gear; on-going series.
4e ARTICLE IDEAS
Egoists – new psionic striker class; half complete.
writing in progress (6/19)
Pterrans – racial write-up, feats, and utility powers for pterran characters; 2/3 complete.
writing in progress (6/19)
Thri-kreen Feats – feats for thri-kreen characters; complete; needs uploading.
preparing to be uploaded to site (6/19)
At this time, I would also like to reiterate our request to those who would like to help creating this material. We are still in need of solid writers and map-makers, though our absolute greatest need is for artists. If you, or someone you know, is interested post here on the boards, and I’ll get back to you with further details.
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To which I added:
Ok, I said thread necromancy. BUT we could read that many projects were on the edge of completion. How about another try, 6 years later?
I don’t want anyone to think I’m bullying all of you that made possible the third edition of Darksun when there was none.
What I would like to see is a handover or supervision from those who originally were working on these projects with new peoples that wishes, that are serious and that have the skills to push forward these unfinished projects we have all been waiting for years.
Please express yourself on the subject. Tell us you no longer have the time. Tell us why and how these projects can or cannot be finished (contracts, constraints, WotC, etc.).
I completely understand if someone can no longer gives time such things; it’s life for everyone.
Although, give us hope and a way to finish these projects or close the subject once and for all that it’s never gonna happen.
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The irony is that some of these projects could ultimately be completed if they were just released as an alpha version. By seeing the general design of the existing product first, we’d know how to complete the rest.
I can speak from experience. I wrote an expansion/revision of Legends of Athas, which had been released as a beta version. I could not have done that without Legends of Athas being released as a beta.
Its time to release.
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I agree with @redking.
Between “releasing just a beta” and “no release at all” I think it’s FAR better the former option.
A lot of DMs put their personal touch or change released materials. Some betas as a baseline would be most welcome.
After all, in the glorious history of athas.org there are a lot of beta releases (different version of the core Dark Sun rules, revisions, etc).
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I think almost everybody still on this site does. Is there someone we can message about this, or do we just have to wait until someone notices this thread?
I agree
Yup. Also, your comment now has the highest number of likes I’ve ever seen on this site.
Quoting myself here, because I wanted to clarify that I don’t actually believe that legal worries would be a problem. I highly doubt that there is anyone in WotC who would notice or care if somebody was to post the 2e versions of Secrets of the Deadlands or Dregoth Ascending right into this thread, much less the 3e version of SoTDL or other incomplete projects that fall firmly under the charter. You can find new 5e releases available for free within hours of release with a little knowledge of google, I somehow doubt 15+year-old-projects that they can’t legally monetize would be cared about even if you walked into their Seattle headquarters and started yelling about it.
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Thanks. I think a 20 year wait is enough. Now someone should release the 3.5e conversion. As a group we can compare the two, and make such adjustments as is required to get it released.
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Thanks. I think mine was formatted in RTF and looked like hell, so the DocX upgrade is much more workable.
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With this being posted, I will once again state the errors I found in the original.
Potion fruit being found in one of the undead rulers treasure troves - they expire after 99 years.
I’m pretty sure undead aren’t affected by illusions, thus the one illusionary realm makes little sense. Okay, found the canon: Undead are generally immune to illusions, but they are vulnerable to quasi-real effects, most of which start to appear in the 4th-level spell list. PH 2E
10th level spell use from non-draconic necromancers?
I’m sure there was more in my notes, but I’m not next to them right now.
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(3.5e specific)
Potion fruit. maybe stored in stasis?
It was specifically mentioned that the Zhen had a way of producing illusions that the undead believed. The realm I believe you are referring to however was Gretch’s love interest. Keep i mind, undead CAN be affected by illusions. Glamors specifically affect them and Mirage Arcana would cover everything stated to be an illusion in her realm.
10th level could be reflavored as epic spells easily enough.
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