Epic Athas 3.5 by redking (WIP)

redking · August 5, 2021, 5:15pm

No. I can make that change. Instead, chosen salient feats will begin at level 22 and the advanced being trait grants the statboost salient feat retroactively at level 19.

Yes that was the intention with that.

I’ve left it wide open for people to decide how they want to handle that in their games. I wrote up a gimped version of psiotheurgy called psiotheology. It can do almost everything that psiotheurgy can do with the metamorphosis seed except apply the advanced being trait. That leaves metamorphosis on the table for them, but not salient feats.

Someone that wants elemental advanced beings can just use exactly the same rules as the arcane metamorphosis, complete with salient feats.

The reason why I gimped the elemental and spirit of the land metamorphosis is that they were kind of afterthoughts in Dragon Kings and were never given stats in the form of an NPC in any product.

My suggestion is to allow the elemental and spirit of the land metamorphosis, but don’t give them salient feats. Meaning don’t make them advanced beings. But if someone wants to do that, the framework allows for it. Just eliminate psiotheology and have divine/psionic casters use psiotheurgy instead.

This reminds me that I have to write something about the do’s and don’ts of metamorphosis.

Imraisen · August 5, 2021, 5:58pm

Great! Let me build a Gary Stu stub, see what it looks like, then make it interesting before I take a stab at Farcluun and Kalak.

My on the surface thoughts are that Rajaat using Epic Psychic Reformation and Anoint the Champion spells give a significant starting advantage to the SM’s. Others who came behind and cobbled together enough materials to go through the change were of significantly higher level before the first spell, but the retro salient feats will make them catch up to be a threat pretty fast. Level 28 is my suspected tipping point, but we’ll see.

The character’s first two epic feats and first salient feat are chosen already, the next choices seem logical with little variation. But there are so many good ones.

redking · August 5, 2021, 6:16pm

That’s right. Note that Anoint the Champion should count against one of the ten metamorphoses towards the goal of full dragonhood. So the SMs at that point have 9 attempts left, plus whatever they have in gentle metamorphosis to help them plug any gaps or attempt things that are a bit different.

Right again. My intention was to make upstarts equal to the SMs except in the ability to grant spells to templars and in political power. Under the Legends of Athas rules, no upstart could ever hope to challenge one of the SMs.

Yes. As an optimiser there are choices which are more optimal than others. The key is to get into the head of the SM and figure out it’s psychological profile. The choices you make for the SM will proceed logically from there.

Imraisen · August 6, 2021, 7:37pm

Test Case (base assumptions, formatting issues; spell/power choices unnecessary at this stage for the most part)

male stage I dragon Erudite 3/Defiler 3/Athasian Cerebremancer 14/Master of the Way 5/Evolved Paragon 3

LE Medium dragon (psionic)

Init +4+Dex; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +0, Spot +0

Languages Common, Dwarvish, Tyrian; tongues, Telepathy 100 ft.

Aura tainted (25 ft.)

AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10

(+0 Dex, +0 natural)

hp 187.5+Con (28 HD); Fast Healing 5

Immune paralysis, sleep

Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +16

Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)

Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

Melee full attack mwk dagger +29/+24/+19/+14 1d4+Str (19-20/x2)

Ranged touch by spell +29+Dex

Base Atk +28; Grp +28+Str

Atk Options Dragon Magic, Extend Power, Quicken Power, Automatic Quicken Powers [1st - 3rd], Multipower, Far Reach, Opportunity Power, Linked Power (synchronicity)

Special Actions Focused Components, Psionic Meditation

Combat Gear

Epic Spells/Day: 3; Epic Spells Known (CL 24th): Defiler Metamorphosis I, Defiler Metamorphosis II, Epic Simulacrum, Spellbook Tattoo

Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 24th):
18th- (2)
17th- Innate Spell wish, (1)
16th- (2)
15th- (2)
14th- (3)
13th- (3)
12th- (3)
11th- (3)
10th- (4)
9th- 1+4
8th- 2+4
7th- 3+4
6th- 4+5
5th- 4+5
4th- 4+5
3rd- 4+5
2nd- 4+6
1st- 4+6
0th- 4

Epic Powers/Day: 3, Epic Powers Known (ML 28th): epic schism, time travel, epic psychic reformation

Power Points/Day: 343+Int; Unique Powers/Day: 11; Erudite Powers Known (ML 28th):

9th:
8th:
7th:
6th:
5th:
4th:
3rd:
2nd:
1st:
0th:
Mastered Powers: (5)

Abilities Str 8+12, Dex 12+14, Con 14+16, Int 15+20+7+5+3, Wis 13+14+3, Cha 10+12+3

SQ ageless, meta-crafting, meta-mastery, perfectly focused, self-sustaining, mystical reservoir, acknowledged master of the Way, convert spell to power

Salient Feats Advanced Being Apotheosis, Advanced Being Exaltation, Advanced Being Improved Spell Capacity, Mystical Reservoir

Epic Feats Epic Manifesting, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Multi-Power, Far Reach, Automatic Quickened Power [1st - 3rd]

Feats Psionic Endowment, Greater Psionic Endowment, Skill Focus (Psicraft), Craft Psionic Trinket, Craft Magic Trinket, Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Initiative, Extend Power, Extend Spell, Empower Spell, Psionic Meditation, Practiced Manifester, Craft Universal Item, Quicken Power, Quicken Spell, Craft Dorje, Linked Power (synchronicity), Innate Spell (wish), Persistent Spell, Metapower (Quicken Power), Practiced Spellcaster, Chain Spell, Opportunity Power, Dragon Magic

Skills Psicraft 31 Ranks, Spellcraft 31 Ranks, KS: Arcana 31 Ranks, KS: Psionics 31 Ranks

Imraisen · August 6, 2021, 7:38pm

Shenanigans/Observations:

S-t-P Erudite grants Spellcraft as a class skill, plus another layer to the blending of Magic/psi. Less ambiguity around s-t-p using arcane fusion since there are spell slots to burn, and it makes great use of a mental action (see schism).
As written, the Meta-crafting and Meta-mastery class features grant corresponding bonus feats at the level these class features are gained (and not after). Judicious use of Psychic Reformation @ 20th level on the original feat and feat planning with crafting/metamagic feats early result in a net gain of about 8 feats. I did not apply this to any crafting or metamagic feats taken after levels 5 and 10 of Athasian Cerebremancer. Should probably be rewritten as virtual feats that apply to all existing and future feat choices and prereqs must be met to avoid said abuse.
Using psyref as laid out in #2, Swapping out meta psionic feats for metamagic feats is the preferred switch because of AB Increased Spell Capacity in the late game
Spellbook Tattoo epic spell, in conjunction with arcane spellsurge and metamagic feats is a fun way of getting some extra mileage out of high level slots; change Chain to Twin for more fun. I just went for 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 level metamagic increases for fun on the selected feats.
On the above, Innate Power is a metamagic feat requiring only Quicken Power. Innate Spell requires Still Spell and Silent Spell feats in addition to Quicken Spell. Meta mastery makes makes bonus Innate Spell feat. Psyref with some reality revision or wish assist in conjunction with the salient feat AB Improved Spell Capacity gives us a level 9 spell of choice for the low price of a 17th level slot (ab)usable 1/round. Higher levels would make this cleaner, but I am using the test case to get out what ‘could’ happen. A SM with the Domain Magic feat (or our fearless Farcluun and his vortex co-op perhaps) can make this spell ‘miracle’ for any cleric spell 1/round of 8th level or less for no XP cost. Time stop is also good.
Epic schism bends the game in all the ways.
I really, REALLY like the Master of the Way PrC. It is a great cap on this build to get to the first level you can cast the metamorphosis spell (24). Since you can’t advance this version of AC into Epic, and I wanted to incorporate as many of the rules in one build as possible, it made sense. I wish it could be taken in conjunction with Psiologist to have a 5/10/5 20-level build pre-epic and ready for Order Adept/Mindlord.
Evolved Paragon comes online at the perfect time (level 25; delayed only 1 level to finish Master of the Way in the build). The bonus epic feats and psionic enchantments make the transition to AB Improved Spell Capacity and it’s ENORMOUS power boost seamless. Pick whatever feats you want; Far Reach to make use of Opportunity Power later seemed fun. I blew all the rest on Multipower and Automatic Quick Power, but in retrospect, Multispell would be better. Mystical Reservoir gives 4,200 free xp toward a wish, but Floating Feats would be more optimal at this level.
Hockey-stick growth curve for this build. There is no stalling with the Evolved Paragon class. The salient feats and psionic enchantments are really good, making it hard to choose early on. There is no epic stutter step with this class available, and woe to anyone facing a more evolved Evolved Paragon! I think my initial assessment was confirmed that level 28 (where I stopped) was the tipping point. Beyond this level, most paths lead to crafting the next AB stage development spell, defraying its costs, and pushing them closer together because of the added power lift in completing those spells. No wonder Kalak and Kalid-Ma wanted a faster way! This setup fits with that my-rocket-gets-to-space-before-yours mentality scary well.
AB Skill Affinity with Acknowledged Master of the Way and Epic Skill Focus Psicraft (required for the artisan feats anyway) make intimidating and diplomacy ridiculously easy since everyone on Athas is a psionic being.
After starting, I wanted to make this an avangion instead, but got lazy and like dragons. It’s agnostic, as there are no Raze feats in the build, and can be interchanged to a preserver focus.

redking · August 6, 2021, 8:42pm

Let me see. You are using the RPGA version of the 14 level true necromancer chassis. Since making that version I have discovered that the full spellcasting/manifesting progression is a misprint.

Your build has an innate wish. This is my fault. I should have included an XP cost for innate spells that use XP. I was actually thinking of that yesterday.

StP Erudite is going to make you a heretic around here.
I don’t think that psychic reformation gives the ability to shift those feats away to something else. Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos could do it, however. I could introduce some cautionary text but I have been assuming a gentleman’s agreement not to do stuff like that.
Yeah. Not as intended.
Link to spellbook tattoo epic spell?
I’ll look into this. At will miracle is pretty extreme. EDIT: I’ve come up with a solution for this that will resolve the issue entirely.
Epic schism is banned at my table. I can’t tell people not to use it. I think it gets banned at most tables anyway.
Glad you like it. It’s a replacement for the arch psion from 3.0 and more suited to Dark Sun. The psiologist has role playing requirements that force the PC in a particular direction.
Yes. Evolved Paragon is powerful but because it doesn’t advance spellcasting you will have to pick up Essence Integration salient feat or your caster/manifester level will begin to fall behind. I did this so that SMs and other advanced beings would remain arcane/pionic and not branch out into other spellcasting or psionic classes.
You’ve got it. They’ve got 10 metamorphoses (well 9, actually) to get it right. Those 9 metamorphosis spells can be casts as rituals with focus structures and other assistive props, while gentle metamorphosis cannot. Even if they can get 2 ranks of metamorphosis into a single psionic enchantment, that is a huge achievement. That means that they can pack in more power each time.
Good point. I am open to a different capstone. Maybe a +5 bonus to diplomacy or intimidate to psionic subtypes as long as the MotW is psionically focused.
Smart!

In terms of the Athasian Cerebremancer prestige class variants, I am personally more likely to stick with the 10 level version based on the Ultimate Magus chassis. It’s playable thoughout from the beginning. When I said that the True Necromancer chassis is hated, I meant it but wanted to leave the door open.

Epic feat automatic quicken power: I think this feat was nerfed and the SRD was not updated. Or at least the spell version of it was. It was changed to one level quickened per feat.

Keep 'em coming.

Imraisen · August 6, 2021, 10:30pm

Still working on how to parse quotes. Every forum is different.

On StP Erudite, I now have a phenomenal character idea that I will write out some fiction for, thanks to your heretic statement!

For the psyref, since meta-mastery grants bonus feats as written, and psyref allows feat choices to be changed, it looked something like this: 3rd level feat - Chain Power; level 16 (ACere 10) meta-mastery class feature grants Chain Spell (B); psyref Chain Power to Psionic Meditation. Essentially, getting the metamagic version ‘free’ when the class feature is gained, and swapping the original choice to something without an equivalent, or another feat altogether. The Innate Spell garbage gained in this way circumvents the need for Silent/Still because there is no Psionic equivalent; it should be excluded, I think.

I’m not sure what the wording should be at the moment (I’ll read through some texts later), but language around ‘if a metamagic feat you have has a direct metapsionic counterpart (or vice versa), you are considered to have both as long as you have the feat. If there is no direct counterpart, this class feature grants no additional benefit. The benefits of this class feature apply if you later gain a qualifying metamagic or metapsionic feat. Apply the text of the respective feat when adjudicating costs - metapsionic to powers, and metamagic to spells.’

That way the class feature isn’t providing bonus feats, just allows you to use feats in the way they are intended.

Spellbook Tattoo epic spell is in Legends of Athas, pgs. 47-48.

Minor editing, the page linked for Evolved Paragon says it does increase Manifester and Caster level, though the syntax implies a missing ‘not’. In that case, the ML and CL are off on the build by 3.

I will build another based on your UM cerebremancer version. I like that one because it can go epic as a 10-level PrC. Have you thought about what it’s epic progression should look like?

redking · August 7, 2021, 3:21am

I’ll go over those things you mentioned and put in the fixes.

I personally do not use epic progression of PrCs, but if you did they would likely be as crappy as epic progression PrCs published by WotC.

The problem with the epic versions of non-epic PrCs is that is that they don’t scale well into epic, meaning in most cases that the epic versions are horrifically gimped. See the epic mystic theurge for an example of that. I think WotC did it as an afterthought and it was a mistake.

I’ll see if the ultimate magus ever got an epic progression.

EDIT: Fixed Athasian Cerebremancer exploit. Corrected omission in Evolved Paragon.

redking · August 7, 2021, 5:54am

Introducing the Athasian Assassin - AKA, the bard. I think this gets very close to the intended role of the bard on Athas.

redking · August 7, 2021, 8:51am

I had a look at Legends of Athas. Despite having read LoA from front to back multiple times, I appear to have suppressed the memory of the Spellbook Tattoo epic spell from the trauma of it. Let’s take a look.

Reveal seed. No factors that would actually enable something like a spellbook tattoo. Then virtual spell mastery feat which will enable every spell mastery tactic under the sun, including forms of spontaneous spellcasting.

I’m not gonna say no, but I’m saying no.

Imraisen · August 7, 2021, 12:19pm

These unintended consequences are why I start at the beginning and make a build that exposes problems. This basically replicates the SM Signature Spells ability and then some, as you could choose 11 9th level spells, pair them with metamagic and arcane spellsurge using your AB Improved Spell Capacity, and burn through your slots in a few rounds. Multispell multiple times would also help.

You may rule that arcane spellsurge doesn’t exist on Athas, but I think it should.

redking · August 7, 2021, 1:10pm

Haha. I won’t say no to anything but all I ask is that the campaign world be internally consistent. That means that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

That makes me want to nerf AB Spell Capacity. It’s got my noggin’ joggin’. I’ll nerf it but do a nice guy nerf.

Advanced being spell capacity [Advanced Being]
Prerequisites: Advanced being, Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]
Benefit: Instead of using the table for spell slots above 9 that appears in the Improved Spell Capacity feat, the character uses the table that appears here. In addition, every Improved Spell Capacity feat that the character has (and takes in the future) is matched with an additional virtual Improved Spell capacity feat, giving the character the ability to cast spells two levels higher than the highest-level spell the character can already cast instead of one. Effectively, each Improved Spell Capacity feat that the character has is counted twice.

I think that does it. Now the AB at least has to think about what it is doing.

EDIT: I depreciated innate power for now. Innate Spell I have changed slightly.

Innate Spell [General]

You have mastered a spell so thoroughly you can now cast it as a spell-like ability.

Prerequisite: Quicken Spell. Silent Spell. Still Spell.

Benefit: Choose any spell you can cast. You can now cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability once per round. One spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell is permanently used to power it.

When taking this feat, you may alter the innate spell with the use of metamagic feats, but you must pay the cost of applying metamagic by higher spell slots (the level of the spell + any metamagic feats + a spell slot eight levels higher). No metamagic reducers apply to this feat.

As well, you must have any focus required by the spell in order to use it as a spell-like ability, and if the innate spell has a costly material component, you must expend an item worth 50 times that cost as a focus when first taking this feat. When taking this feat, you may alter the innate spell with the use of metamagic feats. Since an innate spell is a spell-like ability and not an actual spell, a cleric cannot lose it to spontaneously cast a cure or inflict spell. As well, spellcasters who become unable to cast spells of the level of the spell slot used to power the innate spell become unable to use the spell-like ability.

No spell with an XP cost, even a variable XP cost (such as simulacrum or miracle ) may be an innate spell.

Special: You can choose this feat more than once, selecting another spell and paying the spell slot, focus, and material components costs each time. Note: This feat supersedes the version of the feat in Complete Arcane and the explanation in the 3.5e Main FAQ.

EDIT 2: Updated the salient feats PDF. Updated Master of the Way PDF. New capstone.

Acknowledged Master of the Way
At 5th level you are acknowledged as a true master of the way. You receive a +5 bonus to diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive checks against manifesters or creatures with the psionic subtype.

I threw in sense motive because masters of the way may come up against each other!

Imraisen · August 7, 2021, 2:03pm

I’m not sure how I feel about this, as there are multiple, useful spells of lesser power and level that have an XP cost that would still have to be paid rack time, like alter fortune. Having to pay the XP for each use makes sense, and it was why I chose Mystical Reservoir. A 35th level character could get 1’free’ wish per day. Anything else requires murdering people or a delay in the next level of power; a good trade off.

I think the real offenders here were AB Improved Spell Capacity and Innate Spell via meta-mastery. Fixing meta-mastery to include ‘you must still meet the prerequisites for a feat’ or ‘choose a metamagic/metapsionic feat from the following list’ is a different way of accomplishing the intent.

Silent, Still, Quicken, Innate, Improved Spell Capacity (10th) [Epic], Mystical Reservoir [Salient] and four (nerfed) AB Improved Spell Capacity [Salient] is a stiff investment for one ‘free’ wish per day (feat selection doable by 34th, 5,000xp MRes at 35th). Maybe I underestimate the power of wish, but I would have had epic spells and powers for 15 levels by then.

Part of the fun of negating xp costs with orbs of energy storing, or mystical reservoir, or similar mechanics are ‘what costs can/should be included?’ erudite has an xp cost relating to power learning, but unrelated to crafting, but is like casting and crafting and fits thematically within Athas in my opinion. Especially since there are various learning institutions.

redking · August 7, 2021, 2:12pm

How about this.

"Where the innate spell has a variable XP cost (such as miracle or wish), you must pay at least the minimum cost, which must be a number above 0 XP, specified in the description of the spell, or higher, depending on the variable. For example, miracle has variable XP cost of 0 XP and 5000 XP. An innate spell miracle costs 5000 XP regardless of the effects produced.

I will have to think of more elegant wording. But I think it accomplishes what needs to happen here. I am OK with shadow evocation and shadow conjuration being innate spells, and I expect that the shadow king has them. Shutting down at will spells from the divine list seems pretty important though.

Imraisen · August 7, 2021, 2:20pm

I was also thinking about this one. The original was too much, I think this is too little for a capstone. The kickass part of this class is full Manifester levels, and the mastered powers, as well as the prestige of being a master (that has influence on others in psionic society). Students would seek out masters of these powers to learn from. A thesis in a power over a focus on a discipline.

A capstone (at 16th, earliest level) should be amazing, as you intended.

Keep the 1 mastered power per level, telepathy at 1st, efficiency at 2nd and 4th, fortification at 3rd (+1).
EDIT: I’d make the fortification aspect part of the mastered power, not separate. A master of the way can choose the same power twice, increasing it to +2, but that would gimp the reach of the new capstone proposal.

Consider the acknowledge master of the way at 1st, with a +1 per level in the PrC, gaining renown as s/he masters more power.

As a capstone, I’d like to see the effects of the Ardent’s Dominant Ideal applicable only to Mastered Powers.

Thoughts?

redking · August 7, 2021, 2:33pm

I have just realised that minor spells costs in Mystical Reservoir opens up a can of worms, especially with innate spell. Since it is not an important part of Mystical Reservior, I think it can be removed with no issue. Another advantage of removing minor spell costs is that this salient feat is now a lot less convoluted.

Mystical Reservoir [Advanced Being]

As an advanced being your well of power is deep indeed. You can draw on this well of power to fuel spells, powers, and magical item creation.

Prerequisites: Advanced being

Benefit: An XP cushion of 150XP per character level per day to be used for spellcasting or psionic manifesting costs, whether epic or non-epic. The mystical reservoir allows for item creation equal to 150XP per character level per month, with no free item creation.

Honestly, MotW is powerful enough that I was thinking about dropping telepathy. I am not sure what you are getting at with fortification. It affects all the mastered powers. Are you saying that fortification should select for a mastered power, and this should happen twice, potentially making a +4 bonus to a particular power?

Mastered powers already does this. Or are you referring to this? “You do not need to expend your psionic focus when applying metapsionic feats to powers you manifest from your chosen primary mantle”. If this is it, I can work with that but I can’t offer any further PP reduction such as that mentioned in Dominant Ideal.

Instead of capstoning it, I will introduce it at level one, scaling at the same time as the Mastered Powers.

Imraisen · August 7, 2021, 2:35pm

Yes, exactly this with not having to expend psionic focus. PP reduction is less important.

Let me reread the existing setup again (was going off of memory when posting), to make sure I’m getting it right.

Telepathy is less important on the whole.

redking · August 7, 2021, 2:40pm

I have implemented your suggestions. Telepathy bit the dust in exchage.

Mastered power focus: You do not need to expend your psionic focus when applying metapsionic feats to your mastered powers.

Capstone stays the same. MotW is solidly 1st tier now.

Imraisen · August 7, 2021, 2:45pm

I usually manage to find a way to fit a dip into Mindbender anyway.

I’m glad this is helpful. I don’t want to alter your vision (since you’re doing all the work), so I’m happy to be part of the process.

I’ll take a look at the update and see if it sparks anything else.

redking · August 7, 2021, 2:47pm

No. This is good.

Here’s how I see the capstone for MotW. Its not weak. Its just like “hey, here is this guy, he’s been around for a while and he can do all this powerful stuff. Now he’s finally got the recognition he deserves”, and that’s why he gets it at 5th level rather than scaling from level one. The capstone isn’t the powerful stuff itself, but the culmination of all the other stuff.