I am only sad that I am so late to this party. I just found this thread and registered, as I just started a side hobby of statting out the SM’s according to the existing pdf’s. With what I’m seeing here, my mind is blown by the reset work you’ve done, and I’m back to the drawing board. Let me know if I can help, and I may have some additional questions on the rework of the mechanics for clarity before I build one out.
This is what epic should look like on Athas.
Thanks for your kind words. I’d appreciate the help. Once you’ve got a good feeling for the framework, ideas from within structure should come to you naturally. Feel free to ask me any questions because questions help me to clarify my own thinking.
Here are some advanced being stats using my rules, courtesy of Bdmdragon.
Hey Redking, this is quite a bit of good work on this.
Has this been playtested yet?
It needs play testing. That said, it’s mainly for a specific kind of high level play and the advanced beings are quite deliberately designed to be more powerful than other epic characters.
I’ve also avoided traps like touching spell DCs, which can quickly break the game. The advanced beings have to boost their spell DCs just like other characters.
I will sketch together some things on paper. I have always taken the approach of ‘how do I get my PC’s to rival a SM’, and then account for things that SM’s are uniquely qualified to be able to uncover.
I’ll attempt to build up an advanced being from start to finish, and then compare to the one done up on the other thread. Funny enough, my first thought was Farcluun, as he survived a confrontation with Abalach-Re. As I was digging through the materials here, you had a very flavorful version of him.
I had a PC in 2e that was close to completing his own gambit of obtaining a vortex and using it to co-opt the Templarate of Tyr for a ready-made army. Time travel, split personality, psychic messenger, and the obsidian orbs of Khalid-ma played a part in his planned overthrow of the region.
I may take a more traditional stab at Farcluun, or see if the other can be recreated using these updates.
Good idea about the more traditional Farcluun. I’ve changed my mind about Farcluun being a templar, but the backstory works just as well as a psion/wizard.
I’m looking forward to seeing your builds. Try Kalak. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him written up, despite the fact that he is the SM most likely to have a violent encounter with the PCs (assuming the PCs are front and center of the revolt)
Kalak may be the best experiment, actually. Hamanu references a different version of him as an imposter/wannabe in ‘The Rise and Fall of a Dragonking’, using Sacha and Wyan to grant templar spells (I think this is how that worked, since he was “fake”). Then we have the traditional assumption. They would each look very different, I think.
Speaking of Sacha and Wyan, I couldn’t figure out how to account for them as floating heads, given the Champion’s Regeneration. Any thoughts on that?
Yes. Sacha and Wyan suffer from an epic psionic enchantment version of greater bestow curse. Assuming the curse could be lifted, they would be restored. The people that have the ability to do so do not like Sacha and Wyan, so they are stuck. Certainty Rajaat could do it, but he is in the hollow.
Is there a discord channel where I can ask a bunch of stupid questions, or would you rather everything be out in the open here? I’m happy to add clutter around things that seem small.
For instance, using the Athasian Cerebremancer setup, the earliest level to cast Defiler Metamorphosis I is level 24, with both epic feat selections (21 and 24) going to Epic Spellcasting and Epic Manifesting.
Casting the spell grants the Advanced Being Apotheosis Salient Feat, then retroactively grants the 19HD and 22HD Salient Feat slots.
Is this correct?
I don’t have a discord channel. Just ask away.
That sounds right.
The retroactively gained 19HD salient feat is Advanced Being Apotheosis (compulsory) then you select the salient feats from there on.
Got it. The confusion came in between the Epic spell description granting the trait and the Salient Feat descriptions citing a retroactive bonus feat at 19HD. I may have missed in the details of the updates that one or the other was edited.
If not, making 19HD and being the subject of a metamorphosis spell the requirements for Advanced Being Apotheosis (ABA), then ABA as a requirement for all other Salient Feats would clear that up. Unless there is a reason to have a trait vs./plus the benefits of the feat?
Then the retroactive salient feats would always begin at 22, or 1 level beyond when a character gets their first Epic Feat.
On another note, should there be an Elemental Metamorphosis spell process and Spirit of the Land Metamorphosis spell process so that this is consistent across classes and their options?
No. I can make that change. Instead, chosen salient feats will begin at level 22 and the advanced being trait grants the statboost salient feat retroactively at level 19.
Yes that was the intention with that.
I’ve left it wide open for people to decide how they want to handle that in their games. I wrote up a gimped version of psiotheurgy called psiotheology. It can do almost everything that psiotheurgy can do with the metamorphosis seed except apply the advanced being trait. That leaves metamorphosis on the table for them, but not salient feats.
Someone that wants elemental advanced beings can just use exactly the same rules as the arcane metamorphosis, complete with salient feats.
The reason why I gimped the elemental and spirit of the land metamorphosis is that they were kind of afterthoughts in Dragon Kings and were never given stats in the form of an NPC in any product.
My suggestion is to allow the elemental and spirit of the land metamorphosis, but don’t give them salient feats. Meaning don’t make them advanced beings. But if someone wants to do that, the framework allows for it. Just eliminate psiotheology and have divine/psionic casters use psiotheurgy instead.
This reminds me that I have to write something about the do’s and don’ts of metamorphosis.
Great! Let me build a Gary Stu stub, see what it looks like, then make it interesting before I take a stab at Farcluun and Kalak.
My on the surface thoughts are that Rajaat using Epic Psychic Reformation and Anoint the Champion spells give a significant starting advantage to the SM’s. Others who came behind and cobbled together enough materials to go through the change were of significantly higher level before the first spell, but the retro salient feats will make them catch up to be a threat pretty fast. Level 28 is my suspected tipping point, but we’ll see.
The character’s first two epic feats and first salient feat are chosen already, the next choices seem logical with little variation. But there are so many good ones.
That’s right. Note that Anoint the Champion should count against one of the ten metamorphoses towards the goal of full dragonhood. So the SMs at that point have 9 attempts left, plus whatever they have in gentle metamorphosis to help them plug any gaps or attempt things that are a bit different.
Right again. My intention was to make upstarts equal to the SMs except in the ability to grant spells to templars and in political power. Under the Legends of Athas rules, no upstart could ever hope to challenge one of the SMs.
Yes. As an optimiser there are choices which are more optimal than others. The key is to get into the head of the SM and figure out it’s psychological profile. The choices you make for the SM will proceed logically from there.
Test Case (base assumptions, formatting issues; spell/power choices unnecessary at this stage for the most part)
male stage I dragon Erudite 3/Defiler 3/Athasian Cerebremancer 14/Master of the Way 5/Evolved Paragon 3
LE Medium dragon (psionic)
Init +4+Dex; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages Common, Dwarvish, Tyrian; tongues, Telepathy 100 ft.
Aura tainted (25 ft.)
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
(+0 Dex, +0 natural)
hp 187.5+Con (28 HD); Fast Healing 5
Immune paralysis, sleep
Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +16
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Melee full attack mwk dagger +29/+24/+19/+14 1d4+Str (19-20/x2)
Ranged touch by spell +29+Dex
Base Atk +28; Grp +28+Str
Atk Options Dragon Magic, Extend Power, Quicken Power, Automatic Quicken Powers [1st - 3rd], Multipower, Far Reach, Opportunity Power, Linked Power (synchronicity)
Special Actions Focused Components, Psionic Meditation
Combat Gear
Epic Spells/Day: 3; Epic Spells Known (CL 24th): Defiler Metamorphosis I, Defiler Metamorphosis II, Epic Simulacrum, Spellbook Tattoo
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 24th):
18th- (2)
17th- Innate Spell wish, (1)
16th- (2)
15th- (2)
14th- (3)
13th- (3)
12th- (3)
11th- (3)
10th- (4)
9th- 1+4
8th- 2+4
7th- 3+4
6th- 4+5
5th- 4+5
4th- 4+5
3rd- 4+5
2nd- 4+6
1st- 4+6
0th- 4
Epic Powers/Day: 3, Epic Powers Known (ML 28th): epic schism, time travel, epic psychic reformation
Power Points/Day: 343+Int; Unique Powers/Day: 11; Erudite Powers Known (ML 28th):
9th:
8th:
7th:
6th:
5th:
4th:
3rd:
2nd:
1st:
0th:
Mastered Powers: (5)
Abilities Str 8+12, Dex 12+14, Con 14+16, Int 15+20+7+5+3, Wis 13+14+3, Cha 10+12+3
SQ ageless, meta-crafting, meta-mastery, perfectly focused, self-sustaining, mystical reservoir, acknowledged master of the Way, convert spell to power
Salient Feats Advanced Being Apotheosis, Advanced Being Exaltation, Advanced Being Improved Spell Capacity, Mystical Reservoir
Epic Feats Epic Manifesting, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Multi-Power, Far Reach, Automatic Quickened Power [1st - 3rd]
Feats Psionic Endowment, Greater Psionic Endowment, Skill Focus (Psicraft), Craft Psionic Trinket, Craft Magic Trinket, Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Initiative, Extend Power, Extend Spell, Empower Spell, Psionic Meditation, Practiced Manifester, Craft Universal Item, Quicken Power, Quicken Spell, Craft Dorje, Linked Power (synchronicity), Innate Spell (wish), Persistent Spell, Metapower (Quicken Power), Practiced Spellcaster, Chain Spell, Opportunity Power, Dragon Magic
Skills Psicraft 31 Ranks, Spellcraft 31 Ranks, KS: Arcana 31 Ranks, KS: Psionics 31 Ranks
Shenanigans/Observations:
S-t-P Erudite grants Spellcraft as a class skill, plus another layer to the blending of Magic/psi. Less ambiguity around s-t-p using arcane fusion since there are spell slots to burn, and it makes great use of a mental action (see schism).
As written, the Meta-crafting and Meta-mastery class features grant corresponding bonus feats at the level these class features are gained (and not after). Judicious use of Psychic Reformation @ 20th level on the original feat and feat planning with crafting/metamagic feats early result in a net gain of about 8 feats. I did not apply this to any crafting or metamagic feats taken after levels 5 and 10 of Athasian Cerebremancer. Should probably be rewritten as virtual feats that apply to all existing and future feat choices and prereqs must be met to avoid said abuse.
Using psyref as laid out in #2, Swapping out meta psionic feats for metamagic feats is the preferred switch because of AB Increased Spell Capacity in the late game
Spellbook Tattoo epic spell, in conjunction with arcane spellsurge and metamagic feats is a fun way of getting some extra mileage out of high level slots; change Chain to Twin for more fun. I just went for 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 level metamagic increases for fun on the selected feats.
On the above, Innate Power is a metamagic feat requiring only Quicken Power. Innate Spell requires Still Spell and Silent Spell feats in addition to Quicken Spell. Meta mastery makes makes bonus Innate Spell feat. Psyref with some reality revision or wish assist in conjunction with the salient feat AB Improved Spell Capacity gives us a level 9 spell of choice for the low price of a 17th level slot (ab)usable 1/round. Higher levels would make this cleaner, but I am using the test case to get out what ‘could’ happen. A SM with the Domain Magic feat (or our fearless Farcluun and his vortex co-op perhaps) can make this spell ‘miracle’ for any cleric spell 1/round of 8th level or less for no XP cost. Time stop is also good.
Epic schism bends the game in all the ways.
I really, REALLY like the Master of the Way PrC. It is a great cap on this build to get to the first level you can cast the metamorphosis spell (24). Since you can’t advance this version of AC into Epic, and I wanted to incorporate as many of the rules in one build as possible, it made sense. I wish it could be taken in conjunction with Psiologist to have a 5/10/5 20-level build pre-epic and ready for Order Adept/Mindlord.
Evolved Paragon comes online at the perfect time (level 25; delayed only 1 level to finish Master of the Way in the build). The bonus epic feats and psionic enchantments make the transition to AB Improved Spell Capacity and it’s ENORMOUS power boost seamless. Pick whatever feats you want; Far Reach to make use of Opportunity Power later seemed fun. I blew all the rest on Multipower and Automatic Quick Power, but in retrospect, Multispell would be better. Mystical Reservoir gives 4,200 free xp toward a wish, but Floating Feats would be more optimal at this level.
Hockey-stick growth curve for this build. There is no stalling with the Evolved Paragon class. The salient feats and psionic enchantments are really good, making it hard to choose early on. There is no epic stutter step with this class available, and woe to anyone facing a more evolved Evolved Paragon! I think my initial assessment was confirmed that level 28 (where I stopped) was the tipping point. Beyond this level, most paths lead to crafting the next AB stage development spell, defraying its costs, and pushing them closer together because of the added power lift in completing those spells. No wonder Kalak and Kalid-Ma wanted a faster way! This setup fits with that my-rocket-gets-to-space-before-yours mentality scary well.
AB Skill Affinity with Acknowledged Master of the Way and Epic Skill Focus Psicraft (required for the artisan feats anyway) make intimidating and diplomacy ridiculously easy since everyone on Athas is a psionic being.
After starting, I wanted to make this an avangion instead, but got lazy and like dragons. It’s agnostic, as there are no Raze feats in the build, and can be interchanged to a preserver focus.
Let me see. You are using the RPGA version of the 14 level true necromancer chassis. Since making that version I have discovered that the full spellcasting/manifesting progression is a misprint.
Your build has an innate wish. This is my fault. I should have included an XP cost for innate spells that use XP. I was actually thinking of that yesterday.
StP Erudite is going to make you a heretic around here.
I don’t think that psychic reformation gives the ability to shift those feats away to something else. Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos could do it, however. I could introduce some cautionary text but I have been assuming a gentleman’s agreement not to do stuff like that.
Yeah. Not as intended.
Link to spellbook tattoo epic spell?
I’ll look into this. At will miracle is pretty extreme. EDIT: I’ve come up with a solution for this that will resolve the issue entirely.
Epic schism is banned at my table. I can’t tell people not to use it. I think it gets banned at most tables anyway.
Glad you like it. It’s a replacement for the arch psion from 3.0 and more suited to Dark Sun. The psiologist has role playing requirements that force the PC in a particular direction.
Yes. Evolved Paragon is powerful but because it doesn’t advance spellcasting you will have to pick up Essence Integration salient feat or your caster/manifester level will begin to fall behind. I did this so that SMs and other advanced beings would remain arcane/pionic and not branch out into other spellcasting or psionic classes.
You’ve got it. They’ve got 10 metamorphoses (well 9, actually) to get it right. Those 9 metamorphosis spells can be casts as rituals with focus structures and other assistive props, while gentle metamorphosis cannot. Even if they can get 2 ranks of metamorphosis into a single psionic enchantment, that is a huge achievement. That means that they can pack in more power each time.
Good point. I am open to a different capstone. Maybe a +5 bonus to diplomacy or intimidate to psionic subtypes as long as the MotW is psionically focused.
Smart!
In terms of the Athasian Cerebremancer prestige class variants, I am personally more likely to stick with the 10 level version based on the Ultimate Magus chassis. It’s playable thoughout from the beginning. When I said that the True Necromancer chassis is hated, I meant it but wanted to leave the door open.
Epic feat automatic quicken power: I think this feat was nerfed and the SRD was not updated. Or at least the spell version of it was. It was changed to one level quickened per feat.
Keep 'em coming.
Still working on how to parse quotes. Every forum is different. 
On StP Erudite, I now have a phenomenal character idea that I will write out some fiction for, thanks to your heretic statement!
For the psyref, since meta-mastery grants bonus feats as written, and psyref allows feat choices to be changed, it looked something like this: 3rd level feat - Chain Power; level 16 (ACere 10) meta-mastery class feature grants Chain Spell (B); psyref Chain Power to Psionic Meditation. Essentially, getting the metamagic version ‘free’ when the class feature is gained, and swapping the original choice to something without an equivalent, or another feat altogether. The Innate Spell garbage gained in this way circumvents the need for Silent/Still because there is no Psionic equivalent; it should be excluded, I think.
I’m not sure what the wording should be at the moment (I’ll read through some texts later), but language around ‘if a metamagic feat you have has a direct metapsionic counterpart (or vice versa), you are considered to have both as long as you have the feat. If there is no direct counterpart, this class feature grants no additional benefit. The benefits of this class feature apply if you later gain a qualifying metamagic or metapsionic feat. Apply the text of the respective feat when adjudicating costs - metapsionic to powers, and metamagic to spells.’
That way the class feature isn’t providing bonus feats, just allows you to use feats in the way they are intended.
Spellbook Tattoo epic spell is in Legends of Athas, pgs. 47-48.
Minor editing, the page linked for Evolved Paragon says it does increase Manifester and Caster level, though the syntax implies a missing ‘not’. In that case, the ML and CL are off on the build by 3.
I will build another based on your UM cerebremancer version. I like that one because it can go epic as a 10-level PrC. Have you thought about what it’s epic progression should look like?
I’ll go over those things you mentioned and put in the fixes.
I personally do not use epic progression of PrCs, but if you did they would likely be as crappy as epic progression PrCs published by WotC.
The problem with the epic versions of non-epic PrCs is that is that they don’t scale well into epic, meaning in most cases that the epic versions are horrifically gimped. See the epic mystic theurge for an example of that. I think WotC did it as an afterthought and it was a mistake.
I’ll see if the ultimate magus ever got an epic progression.
EDIT: Fixed Athasian Cerebremancer exploit. Corrected omission in Evolved Paragon.
Introducing the Athasian Assassin - AKA, the bard. I think this gets very close to the intended role of the bard on Athas.