I think you’ve got it right, it’s probably practical - any old copper coins get smelted and made into something useful. Gold and silver is pretty useless outside of the decorative value (at least at Athasian technology level), so it’d make more convenient coins.
I like the idea of iron bars as a quasi-currency of sorts. Wasn’t one iron bar worth 1 gold piece? In the absence of actual gold coins, it could make for a neat substitute. Also, it’s a nice piece of flavour: Common folk saying ‘one iron bar’ instead of ‘one gold piece’ in their conversations.
I believe a pound of iron is 1gp in Dune Trader. It would most likely be a small strip, not a bar. A pound of iron would be a little over a cup in volume. A bar might be 10 pounds.
I agree that copper is too useful to be used as currency. Most people on Athas barter anyway.
Edit: I made a mistake with a decimal point. Oops.
Hm, if a spoon of iron was that heavy, no iron tool would be usable. That’s about enough ore to make a single arrow tip, for comparison. A steel short sword weighs 2 pounds in PHB; steel would be 96+% iron. This is definitely a lot of spoons in volume.
Iron bars might be of any weight the craftsmen want, in fact. The only limit is practicality: Too small bars might not be suitable to create anything, while too big would be impossible to work with. Nothing would stop them from producing one pound bars and using them as a quasi-one-gold-piece. That’d be enough iron to make many small tools - and then, you can scale it up.
A pound of iron would be almost 3 tablespoons or 3.5 cubic inches, so an ingot that was two inches wide, half an inch thick and 3.5 inches long, if I did my math right.
One of the reasons iron as a currency interests me is that it was used as such in ancient Sparta (note though that they were trying to discourage commerce).
Ah, sorry, we’ve got a bit of misunderstanding here Metal ingots are typical for metals that can be smelted and cast, like gold and copper alloys. It makes sense to store it in bars, which are more compact and easier to transport. After all, shape of the metal doesn’t really matter when you’re going to melt it down anyway. You might as well make it convenient.
Iron, on the other hand, can’t be cast - it has to be wrought. That’s why it’s stored in bars, which are more like metal rods. You can heat them up, then bend and hammer them into the right shape without breaking the metal. Connecting separate bits of iron requires welding, which… I’m not sure Athasian smiths are capable of. Not very well, at least.
That’s what makes iron bars interesting: They’re rods of just enough metal for a weapon or tool of a given size. A one pound iron bar would be enough to make a dagger or other Tiny-sized object; a two pound bar is enough for a Medium object, a four pound for a Large object, and so on. It not only gives them a ‘fixed’ value, but makes it clear what you can you make out of one.
At risk of a tangent, why exactly was iron so popular as a material for making weapons? I’m guessing at some of the things a weapon maker might consider:
how common is it
how easy is it to shape into something
how hard is it
does it hold an edge
how does it handle impacts it might experience in combat
how long will it last
how heavy is it
how easy is it to repair
Anything I’m missing?
I’d like to have some means of evaluating the materials suggested in Substitutes for Metal thread
You’re spot-on with a lot of things here, at least according to what I read Bronze was expensive and difficult to manufacture, since it’s an alloy of two metals. Iron only requires one ore plus coal / carbon, so it’s cheaper and easier to manufacture. Using iron let you spam weapons and tools at much higher rate, so to speak.
Interestingly, I read bronze was a superior metal to iron and early steel. It was more durable and held a sharper edge (I heard they used brass razors way into Middle Ages). It’s still inferior to true steel, of course, but that kind of steel was developed pretty late. The biggest drawback of bronze weapons was that it bent and deformed easily - but even then, you could simply smelt a bent sword and cast it back into the right shape.
Also, thanks for the link - I’ve had some thoughts on Athas materials myself, so it’d be great to compare notes
@redking SeruZmaj gave some really good answers in your thread. I agree with a lot of what they say: There probably are rich veins out there, they’re just out of reach. Also, a lot of knowledge was lost. Entire races have been purged, and even those that were not have lost much. Also, I think a lot of mines were abandoned. Wasn’t the Tyr mine discovered several centuries after Kalak settled down?
I also wonder if the small size of the setting has anything to do with it. I once read the whole explored area is the size of California, Nevada, Arizona and Utah. That’s just a tiny slice of the planet. Is metal absent on Athas, or just in the known part of it?
Perhaps there still are rich ore veins, but they’re just too far away? Maybe the Tablelands and surrounding areas were always poor in ores? Prospecting for metal in faraway lands is certainly impractical, considering how tough it is to travel from one city to another on a road. It might still be out there, just… Out of reach?
If the iron is all mined out and mixed with the earth as ‘rust powder’ then one might be able to reclaim the iron if one could generate sufficient heat. I’m not aware of any fuel source on Athas that might fit the bill.
One alternative to Tyr’s feeble iron mine might be that they have some ancient relic that could generate enough heat to produce a small amount of iron on a daily basis; a ‘dragon furnace’ or solar oven of some sort. Put in a few shovelfuls of earth and by evening you have a bucket full of iron and glass.
Extracting iron from iron ore is more difficult than extracting copper from copper ores, due to their melting points. 2700F for wrought iron and 1983F for copper.
In addition, smelting iron is much more difficult than smelting copper and tin. Copper and tin can be poured into molds. Iron requires high heat and hot-working.
Iron is superior to bronze in weapons and tools. Hardness is increased and they retain an edge for a longer period of time. It may be easier to repair a bronze blade, but it’s even easy to not have to repair anything at all.
I enjoy iron being difficult and expensive. When the players get an iron weapon, it’s like finding a magic item in another setting.
In my game, I gave copper weapons a -1 to damage and it still has to roll for breakage. Bronze weapons have no penalties, but must still roll for breakage.
I like @NPC_X 's response over in this post. [feels like between these two posts we’ll soon have enough material for another Net Book]
To quote:
I never liked the rules for ‘inferior’ materials. ‘Inferior’ is a relative term; on Athas, these materials are the standards. It’s metal weapons and tools that are superior to them - hence, I believe they should be boosted up, while the ‘inferior’ weapons should be the unmodified rulebook equipment.
Why not make your copper weapons +1, bronze or iron weapons +2 and steel weapons +3? or some such.
Oh, no doubt of that. Bronze is also much easier to work with, since you can simply cast it. The only real disadvantage of bronze is that it’s an alloy of copper and tin, and the latter is both rare and expensive. You basically need to keep two separate mining industries, which often don’t even coincide in the same region.
*Steel Wrought iron was actually a brittle, low quality material, ill-suited for weapons. Refining it into steel that’d beat bronze in all respects would take several centuries still. Which is why, again, I like the distinction between the ‘true steel’ (Green Era weapons and tools) and mere wrought iron made from Tyr ore.
Hol’ up! My assumption of Athasian technology levels does not accord with yours. You see Athas as being in the Bronze, Classical or Conan style Hyperborean Age. I see Athasian technology as approximately being at the earth equivalent of 1600 AD, but the lack of resources suppresses the output of technology into society in general. A wealthy nobleman or templar may have a telescope for example, but the technology will never become widespread.
Athas as I see it has come as far as it can technologically. Things have been invented but cannot be put into large scale production because of lack of metal.
My view of Athas is mostly shaped by illiteracy. Athas laws literally suppress the storage of knowledge. The only authorised use of writing is bureaucracy and statesmanship. Scholars do not exist as a profession or a caste. The lack of stored knowledge is an obstacle this civilisation can’t hope to overcome.
In case of metallurgy, the lack of practice is a death kneel. The Athasian smiths might know some ancient rhymes that describe the Green Age metallurgy, but they have no way to understand what they mean.
This doesn’t mean they don’t have any sophisticated technology, though. I just believe it’s whollly adapted to the Athas conditions. A telescope wouldn’t be a problem since it can be constructed from readily available materials. Advanced metallurgy, on the other hand, would be purely theoretical - and that level just can’t exist without writing.
Maybe. The Wanderer is clear that literacy is highly restricted. Only templars and nobles are permitted to read and write. But in practice the people of the merchant houses know how to read and write in their own script.
I think that they likely do, as a licensed profession or caste. Er’Stali was a freeman (or slave) historian from Urik. When Rome conquered Greece, they enslaved some of the population, many of whom were literate and educated. These slaves became a slave class of scribes. Likewise, Athasian slaves come in all sorts, and while mass education of slaves is out of bounds, there is surely an exception for educated slaves and licensing of such to do work for nobles and templars.
Athas has had many ages before the nadir its finds itself in now. Its resources, not innovation, which stunts the Athasian people.
I’m enjoying this conversation and am learning a lot about the history of metallurgy. I am reading some more. Yes, wrought iron is brittle and is terrible for weapons. It can be worked by a skilled smith to be about as good as bronze, but historically, it seems the best “iron” weapons, of the iron-age, were actually low-grade steel that was accidentally made. This is fascinating.
Also, it appears there were some other alloys of iron made that were better than bronze, but those were accidents as well.
Several things come to my mind with this thread. Here are my two ceramic pieces worth.
There has been several mentions of “lesser” metals. But no mention of aluminum yet. I haven’t researched it yet, but I think that may have been a viable option of a metal to use on Athas at one point. It’s fairly common on earth. Sure it may dull easier than iron and maybe has the some of the same problems the lesser metals have, but just one other metal to think about.
I like the idea that metals have been used as a medium of exchange historically due to their intrinsic value, non perishable nature, usability for tools or decoration, and ability to have varying divisions of units. This is why silver and gold coins have persisted so long. I also recall reading about one society that used the heads of metal hoes as a medium of exchange because of their potential usefulness. What Athasian’s have now with the ceramic coin is a system of fiat currency. I’ve thought of campaigns that might touch upon inflation or counterfitting all those ceramic pieces that might be easy to reproduce whereas metal is not.
I recently replaced all the doors in my house and out went all the metal hinges with them. I couldn’t help but think about all that metal just going to go to waste. Someone on Athas could sharpen a blade on them and attach to a handle and use as an axe or other chopping weapon or tool. I see the potential for some of older metal from previous ages or just repurposed like my hinges. And then being used as daggers or shivs or improvised metal weapons. Perhaps more smaller metal pieces being reused as a weapon. Just not many long swords like you see in a typical fantasy setting.
I don’t think that we can assume that Athas lacks for metallurgical specialists. What lack of metal does is price out the metal for trivial uses. In a society where metal is plentiful, you might expect children to have metal toys like metal figurines, or normal, non-wealthy adults to have metal chess pieces. In a world where metal resources are scarce that is not the case, but iron and other metals ARE used for industrial purposes on Athas.
Metal is expensive, not non-existent. Metal smiths will ply their trade as normal, except the materials that they are using are more expensive. Rather than metals being widely used by other segments of society, the bulk of these metals will pass through the hands of the metal smiths.
This is why D&D needs the basics of a functional economy system with rough estimates to use as guidelines. Some simple tables and basic reasons and guidelines would suffice, I should think. Just enough to give an idea for how ‘valuable’ things versus available versus common things tend to go. Then slot your resources into the categories as appropriate and adjust the prices and off you go.
Metal ingots are typical for metals that can be smelted and cast, like gold and copper alloys. It makes sense to store it in bars, which are more compact and easier to transport. After all, shape of the metal doesn’t really matter when you’re going to melt it down anyway. You might as well make it convenient.
Wrought iron was actually a brittle, low quality material, ill-suited for weapons. Refining it into steel that’d beat bronze in all respects would take several centuries still. Which is why, again, I like the distinction between the ‘true steel’ (Green Era weapons and tools) and mere wrought iron made from Tyr ore.