I don’t understand your reasoning. Can you elaborate?
Nay. There aren’t any innately magical creatures on Athas to create magical bloodlines and such a conceptual/mechanical niche is, as Grummore points out, filled by Psions.
Plus, sorcerers would ruin wizards - why have a spellbook and tip off the templars when you could just know the spells?
I’ve played with the idea of making/letting arcanist children of the SMs be sorcerers, but keep rejecting it as it conceptually steps on too many toes (as above), IMO.
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This makes some sense to me. I recall reading that Rajaat invented Preserving first and Defiling afterwards.
I can imagne Preserving being the assumed way of casting arcane spells, for the first 3 seconds it takes you to realize you can pull more energy out of the land, and then you’ve discovered Defiling.
Preserving being the natural initial type of spellcasting doesn’t necessarily mean that it remains intact for very long at all or that Defiling isn’t what everyone is taught.
Its like a white tablecloth - its natural state is to be white, but the universe can’t abide that, and someone will stain it before dinner even starts every time you use it, without fail.
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All that went out the window with the alternative power sources of gray, black and cerulean.
Because of your ability scores. Good luck being a 10 Cha sorcerer. Your comment reminds me that I can’t recall Sadira ever consulting a spellbook.
Maybe I’m just not completely awake, but neither of those responses make any sense to me. Can you elaborate/explain?
Drawing energy from the Black (or wherever) , IMO doesn’t change how wizards work in game or in universe - except for whether they devastate plantlife, which (defiling/preserving) is the only thing sorcerers & wizards have in common.
It feels to me like you just completely flipped your argument/position, but I’m probably just missing something. 
Did you just give forced ability score choice/placement as a justification for taking a certain class in 3.Xe? 
The Revised 2e PHB has options for placing rolled values in the ability score you want, much less the 3.0 or 3.5e PHBs.
Also, you’re right, but i don’t remember her using the bathroom either, so maybe Troy just thought spellbooks were boring. 
Like i said, I’d love some elaboration. I have to be missing something. 
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It changes the nature of the setting. Setting warping. You can see the many times I have written about it before on this forum. It probably doesn’t make a difference to the people watching, who just see mages.
Just talking past each other.
I am not talking about PCs, but the setting itself. In a normal distribution of ability scores, some will be sorcerers and some will be wizards. In terms of the setting, Athasians will see the two types of mages as exactly the same.
Well… she was called a sorceress. LOL. I think a lot of the resistance to sorcerers comes from the subconscious thought of “but the SMs aren’t sorcerers!”.
Anyway, having variant mages like sorcerers, dread necromancers, warmages and so on don’t really change anything. The dynamic is still defiling vs preserving… except the for the alternative power sources, which literally came in the second last product in the entire line. The vast majority of people playing DS at the time never used alterative power sources and they don’t even make sense.
As for spellbooks etc being a useful investigative tool for templars, yeah sure. So are spell components, the most common of which can be eschewed with echew material components (and I suspect this to be very widespread among wizards), and a certain ACF for wizards can obviate the need for spellbooks altogether. What I am saying is that this particular objection doesn’t seem like a big deal.
If the objection is that sorcerer is spontaneous this or that, and psion is also this and therefore its not on, I still have to wonder why. Psionics is psionics, magic is magic. A psion can learn their entire list given enough time. A sorcerer is highly restricted in the spells that they know. The differences seem quite large to me. This is also the first time I’ve seen this particular comparison.
And finally -
A pregnant woman had charm person cast on her at some time during her pregnancy. Now her teenage child just cast a spell. Its not blood, but magical pollution. Yet another reason to fear and loathe arcane spellcasters, lest their magic leave a taint on you that will ruin you children.
Even in 3E, the idea that sorcerers were really from bloodlines was ambiguous. I even posted the canon descriptive text for that upthread.
Nay
There’s much subtext in Dark Sun, of which sorcery (arcane magic) was meant as dangerous knowledge used in disregard of the consequences. Knowledge that confers wordly power, as opposed to innate power you discover you have, like a superhero at puberty.
A clear nod at human-wrought environmental destruction on Earth, sorcery is a stand in for industry and technological innovation.
The obvious reason the Sorcerer class was not included in 2e DS was that it had not been invented yet. The design philosophy behind 3e DS, during a time the class was available, was to keep the intent behind sorcery intact - only the Wizard class chooses to learn sorcery, which is a knowledge, not an innate ability. Defilers are doubly monsters for not just destroying the environment but choosing to. A Sorcerer class character would have little choice.
That whenever someone comes in contact with sorcery they may get changed in form or capabilities, or that the first sorcerous spell ever cast changed the supernatural fabric of reality, is owing to fable and myth, of which Dark Sun’s subtext is particularly devoid.
Sadira had hidden her spellbook and has to retrieve it, her first mini story arc.
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You do know that D&D having a separate class attached to the word “Sorcerer” didn’t come until well after WoTC took over and TSR was shut down, right?
It never existed before 3.0 edition. At the point in time Dark Sun was being made, mages, magic-users, wizards, and sorcerers were essentially interchangeable terms, and Witches and Warlocks were the two genders of a character kit from the Complete Wizard’s Handbook.
The reason why Sorcerers never fit into Dark Sun is even simpler than everyone else here is saying-- the concept didn’t even exist when all the canon books for the setting were written, so they didn’t know they had to allow for such a way of handling magic.
So, IMHO adding sorcerers to later editions conversions of Dark Sun becomes just another example of the problems with adapting a setting so intertwined with the 2e rules to a different edition. In Dark Sun, they’d become essentially arcane psions, which introduce so many other problems with setting consistency.
You appear to have skipped reading the previous post
You’re right. I did. Apologies.
For what it’s worth, I did add a little bit to your argument though.
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We agreed independently.
Let’s not forget that 1991’s setting introduced a class section that set a resounding Nope to many classes of the time, stating flat out that paladins and others were out, and drastically overhauling the rest.
The original setting’s philosophy was that the classes as written were fit for standard fantasy settings of knights, wizards, and godly servants, and this new setting of DS offered different candy flavors.
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Try selecting the text. It will come up as an option.
Oh my bad, it was so subtle.
Fixed.
Rajaat wanted to give back the world to the halflings. He created magic. This powerful magic destroyed the world. If sorcerers exist, preserving (and maybe defiling) will be obsolete. Why use these if you have difficulty casting because there isn’t enough vegetation to draw power from? Why have invented so many types of magic?
It’s because you can’t leech yourself to cast, which is the point of the sorcerer.
It could have been interesting to explain the way she used to cast, but any sort of spellbook could have done the job. Kipu (knots), small branch carving or better, tattoos. She could be covered with tattoos that nobody could ever imagine it is their spellbook. It’s something every preserver or defiler knows, hide their spellbook.
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Sorcerers don’t leech themselves. They either preserve or defile.
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Ah, I see where you’re going with this now.
If you ran a sorcerer as still defiling or preserving, but not relying on a spellbook, then it is conceivable they could work within Dark Sun.
It’s a fun idea to pick a power source for them.
Does that mean Warlocks could exist, but their power source is the Black or the Grey?
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4E had warlocks as templars. Having both 3.5e style templars and warlocks as templars both could be interesting. Perhaps the many varied organizations and factionalization in Eldaarich is because of this divide.
As for warlocks as they appear in Complete Arcane, I think that they would require an extensive re-fluff.
For what its worth, here is my proposed Sorcerer Monarch based templar base class.
Warlock Templar (Wtp)
Hit Die
D8.
Requirements
To qualify to become a warlock templar, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment
Within one step of patron sorcerer king on moral (good/evil) axis.
Class Skills
Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Concentration, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Literacy, Profession (any), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Warlock templar are proficient in all simple weapons. Since templar training involves some education in warfare, warlock templars receive two martial weapons proficiencies. Warlock templars are proficient in light armor but not with shields
Sigil (Sp): Every warlock templar receives a sigil that is the sign of their rank and station as a templar within their city’s templarate. The form of the sigil is unique to each city state but is always unmistakable for what it is. The sigil serves as your divine focus and allows you to use the spell-like powers arcane mark, purify food and drink, and slave scent a combined total of times equal to 3 + your Cha modifier.
Invocations : A warlock templar does not cast spells as regular templars do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the energy that emanates from his Sorcerer Monarch. A warlock templar may use invocations at will with the following qualifications:
A warlock templar’s invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. A warlock templar is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use an invocation if he is hit by an attack while invoking, just as a spellcaster would be. A warlock templar can choose to use an invocation defensively, by making a successful Concentration check, to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity. A warlock templar’s invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation’s description specifically states otherwise. A warlock templar’s caster level with his invocations is equal to his warlock templar level.
The save DC for an invocation (if it allows a save) is 10 + equivalent spell level + the warlock templar’s Charisma modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock templar cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat, as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability.
A warlock templar can select any invocation available to warlocks. Unlike a standard warlock, a warlock templar’s invocations are divine magic based but are still subject to spell failure chance, just like their arcane warlock counterparts.
Secular Aptitude (Ex): At 1st level, you gain Secular Authority as a bonus feat. In addition, you receive a competence bonus to Secular Authority checks equal to half your warlock templar level.
Mitigate Corruption (Ex): You can mitigate the legal consequences of being caught being bribed or otherwise being financially corrupt by clever dissimulation. At 1st level you may take bribes or corruptly appropriate up to 1 Cp per day without legal consequences (you must still accept the bribes or illegally appropriate funds – the money does not come automatically). For every warlock templar level you have beyond first level, this legal immunity to financial corruption increases by 1 Cp per day. This does not protect the warlock templar from the consequences of other kinds of official corruption, like treason.
Imbue Templar Item (Su): A warlock templar of 3rd level can use his supernatural power to craft magical items if he has the corresponding item crafting feat. He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level) in place of a required templar spell he doesn’t know or can’t cast. Spells to be emulated must be drawn from the templar spell list staring on page 138 of the Dark Sun Core Rules and includes the spells of any spheres granted by his Sorcerer Monarch. You may not emulate spells that exceed half your caster level (for example, a warlock with a caster level of 5 may not emulate a 3rd level spell. He must have 6 caster levels to do that).
If the check succeeds, the warlock templar can create magical item as if he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete the item. He does not expend the XP or Cp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this Use Magic Device check for that spell until he gains a new level (in any class).
The warlock templar is considered to know the spells on the templar spell list and the spells on the spheres granted by his Sorcerer Monarch for the purpose of activating spell trigger items.
Magical items created by a warlock templar are considered divine.
Templarate Training: At 4th-level, a warlock templar receives a bonus feat reflecting his privileged position and the training that comes along with it. These bonus feats must be drawn from the following: Alertness, Brew Potion, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Improved Turning, Investigator, Leadership, Linguist, Kleptocrat, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Favorite, Improved Sigil, Dissimulated, Faithful Follower, Field Officer, Scribe Scroll, or Skill Focus. A warlock templar must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat. The warlock templar gains another bonus feat at 8th level, 12th level, 16th level, and 20th level.
Refocus Invocation: At 3rd level, you may select a least invocation that you know and another least invocation that you do not know. You can switch between the two least invocations after 8 hours rest. At 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level you can select another pair of invocations at the grades specified in the table and you can switch between them.
Imbue Cleric Item (Su): At 10th level your ability to imbue items grows. You can now imbue items using spells from the cleric spell list in the same way you imbue templar items.
High Templar (Ex): At 14th level you are either a high templar, or merely respected or feared by other templars. Against templars and creatures with the secular authority feat, you gain a +2 to skill checks of Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff and Sense Motive. These bonuses do not apply to other templars with this ability.
Unbreakable Bond (Ex): At 20th level (or 20th warlock templar caster level, whichever comes first), the bond with the vortice from which the warlock templar draws divine magic becomes unbreakable. The vortice is always open to the warlock templar, and even the warlock templar’s Sorcerer Monarch patron cannot stop the warlock templar from receiving invocations. Even the death of the Sorcerer Monarch does not stop the warlock templar from receiving invocations. The warlock templar becomes aware of this strengthened bond, but the Sorcerer Monarch has no special way of knowing unless the Sorcerer Monarch cuts off the warlock templar from invocations and notices that the warlock templar can still invoke invocations.
Table: The Warlock Templar
New Invocations
Whispers of the Sorcerer King
Least; 2nd
You hear whispers in your ears, revealing secrets of Athas. Select three knowledge skills. You gain a +6 bonus on those three Knowledge skill checks for 24 hours. Once the 24 hours has elapsed, a different three knowledge skills may be selected.
Sorcerer King’s Protective Screen
Least; 2nd
You bring forth the protection of your sorcerer monarch, protecting yourself from arrows as if under a protection from arrows spell. Sorcerer King’s Protective Screen lasts for 24 hours or until discharged.
Sorcerer King’s Elite Guard
Least; 2nd
You call on your sorcerer monarch to imbue you with size and strength, intimidating the enemies of your leader. You get the benefits of an enlarge person spell and bless spell (bless giving you a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and on saving throws against fear effects). Sorcerer King’s Elite Guard lasts for 1 minute per caster level or until discharged.
Cool Oasis
Least; 2nd
You bring forth your sorcerer monarch’s succor. You get the benefits of the cooling canopy spell (Dark Sun Core Rules 3.5, page 148) and the sustenance psionic power. Cool Oasis lasts for 24 hours or until discharged.
Utterance of War
Dark; 7th
You bring valor and fury to your allies. You invoke the effects of a crusade spell (Dark Sun Core Rules 3.5, page 149). Invoking this invocation while it is still active discharges the previous invocation.
Find the Enemy
Least; 2nd
You seek out the enemy of your leader. You can invoke the effects of the footsteps of the quarry spell (Dark Sun Core Rules 3.5, page 156). In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to Intimidate and Sense Motive checks against the named enemy.
Avatar of the Sorcerer King
Dark; 6th
You become an avatar of your sorcerer monarch. You can invoke the effects of the transformation spell. Additionally, you get damage reduction 10/magic. If you have spellcasting ability, that ability is lost as detailed in the transformation spell description, nor may you use spell trigger or spell completion magic items, but your invocations are unhindered. Once you have used this invocation, you must wait 5 rounds before you are able to use it again.
Aura Audit
Least; 1st
You know things about the citizens and slaves of your city. You can invoke the effects of the aura reading psionic power (Dark Sun Core Rules 3.5, page 178).
Sorcerer King’s Strength
Lesser; 3rd
When you use this invocation, your strength increases exponentially. You can carry heavy loads effortlessly, and your strength increases for other purposes also. You get the benefits of the psionic lighten load power (Dark Sun Core Rules 3.5, page 184), enabling you to increase your carrying capacity as if your Strength score was increased by 10 points, and an effect similar to the bull’s strength spell, except that instead of an enhancement bonus, you are granted a +4 morale bonus to Strength. Sorcerer King’s Strength lasts for 2 hours per caster level or until discharged.
Shunt to Void
Lesser; 3rd
You can shunt a creature within 30 feet of you into the void between Athas and the Gray. The target creature may resist the forced relocation by making a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your caster level + your Charisma modifier). If the creature successfully resists this relocation, you may not target him again with this power for 24 hours. Once a creature is relocated, it remains trapped in the void for 1 round, effectively losing its action on that round of combat. You can use this ability at will. Effects such as Dimensional Anchor prevent this invocation from taking effect.
Thousand Eyes of the Sorcerer King
Lesser; 3rd
Your sorcerer monarch grants you the power to truly see. You get the benefits of the ubiquitous vision psionic power, allowing you to see in a 360-degree sphere. Thousand Eyes of the Sorcerer King lasts for 24 hours or until discharged.
Sorcerer King’s Arsenal
Least; 1st
You call echoes of weaponry used by the soldiery of your sorcerer monarch into your hands. You can invoke the effects of the call weaponry psionic power. For every 4 caster levels you have, this invocation is augmented by 4 additional power points.
Mind Shield of the Sorcerer King
Least; 2nd
As a valuable agent of your sorcerer monarch, you gain protection against psionic and magical mind affecting intrusions. As an immediate action, you can invoke the effects of the thought shield psionic power. This invocation protects against both magical and psionic mind-affecting effects. For every 4 caster levels you have, this invocation is augmented by 1 additional power point, gaining the benefits detailed in the description of the power.
Sorcerer Monarch’s Injunction
Greater; 5th
Your sorcerer monarch grants you the power shatter mind blank effects and break enchantments. When you use this invocation, you may choose to invoke the effects of the shatter mind blank psionic power or the break enchantment spell. Your manifester/caster level equals your caster level for this invocation.
Punish the Cowards
Lesser; 3rd
You do not allow your servants to betray you or your monarch out of cowardice or weakness. You can invoke the effects of the infallible servant spell (Exemplars of Evil, page 27). This invocation differs from the spell description as any capture causes the spell to take effect, regardless of the captor’s alignment. You may have a number of servants affected by this invocation up to your (unmodified) Charisma ability modifier.
Sorcerer Monarch’s Sight
Greater; 5th
Your ability to perceive is almost as good as that of your sorcerer monarch. You get the benefits of the dragonsight spell (spell compendium page 73), enhancing your visual acuity. Sorcerer King’s Sight lasts for 24 hours or until discharged.
Cosmic Cognition
Dark; 9th
Nothing can be hidden from you. You can invoke the effects of the cosmic awareness power (Dark Sun Core Rules 3.5, page 180).
Slave Breaker
Least; 1st
You can bring slaves (or any enemy) down without damaging its market value. This invocation is the equivalent of the whelm spell (Player’s Handbook II, page 128), except as follows. You invoke an occult assault on the target’s mind, dealing 1d6 points of nonlethal damage if it fails its saving throw. For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you deal an extra 1d6 points of nonlethal damage to the subject, to a maximum of 5d6 at 9th level. For every 4 caster levels you have, you may target one additional creature.
Sorcerer King’s Aegis
Lesser; 4th
A shield comes into being to block enemy magics. As the mystic aegis spell (Player’s Handbook II, page 120). To use this invocation, you must be aware of the spell being cast, and succeed on a Spellcraft check of DC 15 + spell level. Upon success you can invoke sorcerer king’s aegis immediately (as an immediate action) when you are targeted by the hostile spell. You gain spell resistance equal to 12 + your caster level against that spell. Once you have used this invocation, you must wait 5 rounds before you are able to use it again.
I’ll chime in, despite my anti magic preferences.
I could see a sorcerer IF and only if the SKs had children from their modified forms. If they are even still genetically capable of bearing offspring…
I personally think a limited warlock class is a better template for Templars than what is currently existing. More in line with the idea of dark corruption by the SK.
Perhaps with a bolted on modified ability of the spell thief to learn and store a few specific arcane spells taught to them by the SK, in addition to the invocations… or make that an invocation itself.
Limit the actual wizard class to the Champions and the like or something.
Use the NPC Adept class modified for preserving / defiling instead for PCs to bring down the playable level of magic.
There are. In Athas still live genies (eg. Dao in book “City-State of Tyr”) and other elemental powers. So conceptual “they have magic in own blood” can be realized. But they wouldn’t be as users of arcane magic, but as users of elemental, divine magic.
But cuz elemetal powers are very weak, so also “elemental-touched” should be very small part of population.
Eg. less than 1% can have possibility; 75% can not survive own childerity cuz anti-magic phoby and policy and random events (eg. death by hunger, thirst or sunstroke); rest have 10% chances that they will controlled own powers, that they will be usable. If they will be finded by druids or elemental clerics chances to survive or correct education will be greater. But still they will be extremal small part of society. IMO - more close to NPC than playable persons.