Originally posted by jonplaywu:
These rules are ones I have cobbled together from others and modified. I feel they are powerful enough to show how a defiler in 2e would be increasingly more powerful than a preserver of teh same level. Please let me know what you all think.
Feats at top and utility spells at bottom
PRESERVING MAGIC: No change from the normal rules of a warlock or a wizard. Clerics, paladins and other classes do not draw their power from the life energy of Athas, but from the Elemental Chaos.
DEFILING MAGIC: A wizard or warlock may choose to defile the life around him or her and regain some of their spent power, but the cost is a deathly circle of ash around them. Defiling can only be done within an area of life, so a deep lifeless desert cannot sustain this act, nor can any icy waste.
NEW FEATS
Heroic tier feats
Defiler [Wizard/Warlock]
You have learned to drain the lifeforce from the earth and plants around you to augment your magic.
Prerequisite: you must be a Wizard or have taken the Wizard multi-class feat.
Benefit: when you cast a spell, you may choose to drain energy from the land around you to either increase the damage dealt by +1 die (so 4D6 becomes 5D6).
Special: To use the power you must spend a healing surge and the land around you in a 1 square close burst is sucked dry of leaving it a sterile scar of ash and dust. Consequently, until you leave the defiled area, you cannot make use of this ability again.
Extend Defiling [Wizard/Warlock]
You have learned to draw power from an even wider area.
Prerequisite: Defiler
Benefit: you may increase the area you draw power from by an extra square. For each extra square of land defiled, you increase the power of your defiling boost by +1 die.
Special: the affect drains from you healing surge per +1 die increase. You may select this feat multiple times, allowing you to further extend the area you can drain. You do not have to drain the maximum area that you can drain; it is entirely up to you.
Special: you may use this ability’s ‘controlled drain’ to acquire more power while still within a defiled area- in this case, you only gain the benefit of draining the lifeforce from the previously untouched land. If you have defiled 1 squares of land around you, then choose to defile 3 squares of land, you only count as having defiled 2 squares of land for your defiling benefits, as the first square of land has already been sucked dry.
Paragon tier feats
Revitalize [Wizard/Warlock]
You have learned to feed the energy you draw from the land into yourself, healing your wounds and restoring your energies.
Prerequisite: Defiler
Benefit: when you choose to defile, rather than augmenting your damage you may instead choose to regain hitpoints as though you had successfully used a healing surge plus your intelligence modifier.
Power Surge [Wizard/Warlock]
Your skill at draining energy now allows you to further intensify the magics that you cast by infusing them with stolen lifeforce.
Prerequisite: Defiler, Extend Defiling
Benefit: when you choose to defile, rather than increasing the damage die, you may choose to instead increase the damage die type of your cast spell by one step. D3 becomes D4, D4 becomes D6, D6 becomes D8, D8 becomes D10, and D10 becomes D12- this is the maximum amount you can boost your spell’s damage to.
Epic tier feats
Infusion [Wizard/Warlock]
By stealing the lifeforce from the land, you can replenish your own arcane energies.
Prerequisite: Defiler, Revitalise
Benefit: when you choose to defile, you may choose to regain one expended Encounter or Daily spell instead of either increasing damage or
regaining hit points.
NEW UTILITY SPELLS
Defile Wizard Utility 2
You drain life from Athas to empower your spells.
Encounter * Arcane
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: You can cast 1 additional Encounter Power.
Special: All terrain in Burst 2 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers.
Defiling the Land Wizard Utility 2
You drain energy from the very land to fuel your spells,
leaving the earth barren and desiccated in your wake.
Encounter * Arcane
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain a +1 power bonus to attack and damage
with spells until the end of your turn.
Sustain Minor: You can keep this effect sustained for an
encounter or five minutes.
Special: Whenever you cast a spell while under the effect
of this power, the square in which you are standing
becomes defiled. You do not gain the benefit of this effect
when standing in a defiled square.
Blacken Wizard Utility 6
Desperate for power, you rip the very soul from Athas, withering the landscape around you.
Daily * Arcane
Standard Action * Personal
Effect: You can cast 1 additional Daily Power.
Special: All terrain in Burst 6 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers.
Scorch Wizard Utility 10
Desperate to revive your expended energy, you rip the very soul from Athas, withering the landscape around you.
Daily * Arcane
Standard Action * Personal
Effect: You recover all your class and racial powers as if you had just had an extended rest, but no powers from magic items. You gain no hit points or action points and do not actually rest during this period.
Special: All terrain in Burst 12 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers.
Burn Wizard Utility 16
In tearing away the life force of Athas, you channel its power to replenish your spent energy.
Daily * Arcane
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: As an immediate action, cast a single ranged attack spell. This spell is maximized and has the added descriptor NECROTIC added to it.
Special: All terrain in Burst 24 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers
Originally posted by flip:
I like the idea of using a healing surge when defiling. Puts something of an upper limit on the number of times you can do it, which at least helps a little bit with the metagame explanation as to why it’s not a complete wasteland …
Originally posted by Pennarin:
This is the best writeup yet.
I suggest parallel posting of this subject over at Arena’s DS4 section.
Originally posted by nymrohd:
Might I suggest you write the base feat as an at-will? Just so it is easier to add it to the rules’ syntax. Something like:
Defile Defiler Feature
At-Will Arcane, Defiler (could make some keyword for this?)
Minor Action Personal
Effect: Spend a healing surge. Until the end of your turn, arcane powers you use deal an additional damage die.
Special: Using this power defiles the land in a close burst 1. At the start of your next turn and for the rest of the encounter, you cannot use any powers with the arcane keyword while in the affected area.
Originally posted by Mist-Bound:
You know, those Defiling Magic feats look identical to some feats that I posted way back when this forum was merged into the “Other Published Worlds” mega-forum. In fact, I think those are my feats!
Originally posted by jonplaywu:
I would not doubt it, as I did state that these are some rules I found and have tweaked to reflect some ideas. I hope that you do not mind me incorporating them into a fuller version.
In my mind, the defiler is quite a step more powerful than a preserver, what I would like to know is do you guys think it is broken.
Jon
Originally posted by Zardnaar:
[quote]I would not doubt it, as I did state that these are some rules I found and have tweaked to reflect some ideas. I hope that you do not mind me incorporating them into a fuller version.
In my mind, the defiler is quite a step more powerful than a preserver, what I would like to know is do you guys think it is broken.
Jon[/quote]
Its not broken as such but its seems a bit to powerful but not dramatically so.
Best write up so far. You could also tweak the defiling radius to something that scales with level. maybe -1 square heroic tier, 0 square paragon, and +1 square epic tier.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Nymrohd, the keyword would be 
Defile. Any power that defiles, either by default or because the creature wishes it so, would thus gain the keyword and apply the defiling rules to it.
Originally posted by haferka:
Genius. Simple and easy.
Originally posted by Great_Zamboni:
This looks great - my only concern is that keeping track of which squares on the combat mat are defiled sounds like it might be a bit of a headache.
Originally posted by pa_kid:
Keeping with the spirit of the 4E rules, I think defiling should be handled one of three ways. Keep in mind that in general, much like worshiping evil gods, PCs probably shouldn’t be defilers.
1 - Make it a template to apply to a monster. (normal to elite)
2 - Make it utilize the energy of willing part members like the warlock dark does
3 - Make it a multiclass feat that opens up defiling spells kinda like the spellplague
While it might be tempting to make it easy access feats, you probably want to avoid making it have ANY mechanical advantage on the PC side. Yes, from a story side we know that defiling was easier and more powerful, which is why the world is like it is - but if you model that for PCs, you’re just asking for trouble.
Personally I’d just go the route of monsters only, but if we had to do it for PCs, I’d say make the spells consume a healing surge from everyone in a close burst (ally or foe alike) and turn the entire burst area into difficult terrain - drawing the life energy of everyone nearby and turning the ground to ash.
That would provide two major negatives to discourage players - first, the healing surge drain would hurt players without really hurting monsters, but not seem like it just targeted your allies; second, the difficult terrain around the defiler would probably end up being more trouble than it’s worth.
You could even stipulate that the caster must be on an undefiled square to do it - forcing them to move each time.
Just my personal thoughts of course. Ultimately, I don’t think the intent was to ever have players regularly playing defilers. With that in mind, I’m not sure there is a ton of value in modeling it for PCs (and a lot of potential pitfalls).
Originally posted by haferka:
How to simplify “Defileing”…
When you use any spell with the “Defiler” keyword the life energies are forcefully and visibly siphoned away. Anyone withing sight will know that you have cast a defiling spell. As more and more life energy is siphoned away a permanant swath of destruction is visible, plants can no longer grow, and animals will flee the area.
Originally posted by haferka:
Add 2 new uses for skills…
Hiding spellcasting: many athesian spellcasters will conceal their spellcasting and let others believe that they are psionic manifestations.
storing arcane power: arcane spellcasters will sometimes storeup power for times when they can not safly draw upon its normal source. This process can be physically draining.
Hide spellcasting : Bluff vs Perception, casting the spell takes twice longer than normal, standard action spells are NOT concealable in combat. (free > swift > move > standard > NA).
Store arcane energy: endurance vs DC 10+spell level. success temporarily uses a healing surge, the healing surge is recovered when the spell energy is used. a failed check results in a loss of 1 healing surge. An extended rest restores lost healing surges, but does not restore surges used to store spell energy.
Originally posted by Zardnaar:
Might want to make defiling a minor action as well if its going to be slightly more powerful than mormal.
Defile (minor action)
You may draw extra power from plants when you cast a spell. Deal +1 damage heroic tier, +2 damage paragon tier, +3 damage epic tier.
You could make this an option for preservers as well and they get a defiliong point. After XYZ amount of defiling points are colected you have to defile all the time, it no longer optional. Anyone caught in the defiling radius takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls until your next turn.
To be used in addition to the defiler powers above of course. Just an idea, it may suck.
Originally posted by flip:
So, to get into my rote set of requirements for a defiling mechanic:
- It must, at a base, be open to any Arcane caster
- It must be at least somewhat balanced with the rest of the class base
- You may build up the potency of the action through the use of feats, or Paragon Paths, to atain that frightening level of power we all expect from our defilers. But, remember the old 3e bit: Feats Should Be Nice, Not Required (FSBNNR)
The first item really is one of those non-negotiable points for me. An untrained Wizard must be able to defile. It is one of those things that I find to be criticially important to the tone of being a wizard in this setting. That the temptation is always there.
Originally posted by flip:
So, as something of a synthsis of things I’ve seen over the last couple of months:
Give Arcane casters, of all types, the ability to defile. Make it cost a Minor action, produce an area of ash, and give, say, +1 to damage, for each die, at Heroic teir, +2 at Paragon, and +3 at Epic.
You can set up feats that might make this better – cause damage to those in the circle of ash, redirect the circle of ash, grant combat advantage against enemies caught in the circle …
As for powers, I first considered treating Defiling as a sort of implement. That might be practical, but another approach might be this: Certain powers have an additional effect if they’re cast through Defiling. much like the Warlock has powers that are a little better if you’re of a certain Pact, we can have some powers that work a little better if you’re defiling. Basically, a Path Sinister equivalent.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
And how would one treat special implements like the old 3e obsidian spheres of the dragons and other PrCs and such?
If the nature of the implement you use changes and becomes more powerful in your paragon path or epic destiny, it might say so in the text.
Maybe a certain feat tree could culminate with access to a more powerful implement made of obsidian? Some of the defiler PrCs would no longer warrant an actual paragon path now a days.
Originally posted by jonplaywu:
On Fluff…
My thoughts about the defiler was that a “normal” arcane caster warlock/wizard, would become tired of keeping the central way and take this path by selecting the feat. If the preserver defiles immediatley it steals from the dramatic effect of the decision.
As far s the mechanics of it, I like a great deal of the ideas put here and will post some of the changes I’ve made based on them.
How would you guys handle a Templar? I was thinking a Cleric, required t take the warlock multiclass feat. and then at 11th they become what I always saw a Templar, a war machine with some ability to heal and bess and such.
Originally posted by Zardnaar:
[quote]On Fluff…
My thoughts about the defiler was that a “normal” arcane caster warlock/wizard, would become tired of keeping the central way and take this path by selecting the feat. If the preserver defiles immediatley it steals from the dramatic effect of the decision.
As far s the mechanics of it, I like a great deal of the ideas put here and will post some of the changes I’ve made based on them.
How would you guys handle a Templar? I was thinking a Cleric, required t take the warlock multiclass feat. and then at 11th they become what I always saw a Templar, a war machine with some ability to heal and bess and such.[/quote]
A Templar would be something like the Wisdom based Cleric. Power source elemental and it ould be a leader wih maybe sopme slightly better attack spells than the cleric.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
[quote]On Fluff…
My thoughts about the defiler was that a “normal” arcane caster warlock/wizard, would become tired of keeping the central way and take this path by selecting the feat. If the preserver defiles immediatley it steals from the dramatic effect of the decision.[/quote]
Fluff says, actually, that any preserver can defile if they want/feel the need for it so as to increase the potency of their spell, and then return - with some difficulty - to preserving. (Remember Sadira while she battled Nok in the desert.)
This would indicate a basic ability for everyone to defile, not a need to take a starter feat to even allow it.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
The myrmeleon’s (3e PrC) obsidian implement could be a feat. It would allow the use of a number of at-will, encounter, or daily powers, or maybe attack or utility powers, per day or per encounter. You’d gain the benefits of defiling without taping the land.
This would make the feat useful for everyone, who might go in places where energy is not availlable. If so, then we’d have to sort out what’s the difference between a preserver and defiler using the orb to store energy within it and later tap it.
Originally posted by jonplaywu:
Yes Sadira used her abilities to defile at certain points, but the caveat to that I think, is that Sadira was high enough level to use spells like invisibilty and evard’s black tentacles proving that she was sufficient level to take feats and the like. So to my mind, the question that arrises is that Sadira, like all spelcasters, was taught the strait an dnarrow path, but made a concious decision to defile and found that it was not worth it.
In 4e terms, she chose a defile feat at x level, then at x+2 level, she reversed that decision and picked a different feat not related to defiling.
I think this idea serves both the game and the fluff at the same time, but you guys tell me if I’m completely out of my skull.
-Jon
Originally posted by Pennarin:
I disagree on that first part, and apparently so do many others who voiced their opinions over the years. Look up flip’s current comments, and his opinion on this matter reflects the official stance at athas.org since the days of 3.0, opinion which I share and base on references, one of them being the Sadira bit.
As for the latter part, don’t know you enough yet to generate an opinion of you and your mind, so keep on skulling! 
Originally posted by jonplaywu:
Who is flip and where are his comments located?
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Posts no. 2, 15, and 16, above. Name’s been on the roster for athas.org since forever as well. Guy’s oooooold. Sorry flip! Nah, the old chap’s still very sharp indeed. And so will be his retort as well, I imagine
Originally posted by JohnLynch:
Having a crapload of pennies would help make it much easier.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Yes, but where would you get such rare implements? Where, I ask!!
Originally posted by jonplaywu:
I use an erasable battlemap, and an x to mark defiled. Easy and simple.
Originally posted by zenontheterrible_dup:
On Fluff.
In the original second edition darksun, defilers defiled because it was EASIER and more POWERFULL (slightly) than preserving. Preservers had to learn at great expense to their personal power (they required ALOT more experience) how to not destroy the earth around them when they cast spells. This was done by casting the spells with their OWN life energy.
on rules:
i haven’t read around this forum a ton, I REALLY like some of the powers and feats suggested in this post for the defiler
In my darksun campaign we use these ad hoc rules for now:
any arcane power Defiles by default:
cantrips = plant life noticeably wilts
At will powers - defile a blast 1 area (any creature in the blast area lose’s temporary hit points equivilent to the casters ability mod, necrotic)
Encounter Powers - Defile a blast (1 * Level of power) area (any creature in the blast area takes necrotic damage equivilant to the casters ability mod)
Daily Powers - Defile burst (1 * Level of Power) area (any creature in the burst area takes necrotic damage equivilant to the casters attack, and must immediately save or be weakened (save ends)
This of course can be changed due to the lushness of the terrain (example):
extreme dessert 2x area effect, damage(-2 save)
Vegetated 1/2 area effect, damage (+2 save)
Wilders are the arcane classes exactly as they appear in the PHB except of course their powers defile the land as described above. They are usually unaligned, but can be of any alignment.
Defilers are trained in the art of defiling. They are always evil (and not players in my campaign). they have a class ability (channel defiled energy: arcane restoration :D)that lets them spend a healing surge (as a minor action) to defile the land to regain the use of an encounter power, or (as a move action) expend two healing surges to defile the land regaining the use of a daily power. The defiling radius is the same as if they had expended that power. Alternative use (channel defiled energy: arcane conflaguration) the defiler may spend a healing surge to add 2d10 arcane damage to the next power he uses (minor action) Total number of healing surges you can spend this way in one day (like a paladins lay on hands) would be limited in use by the defilers main stat modifier: int for wiz, or cha for warlocks (allowing them to use con would just be too nice:P)
Preservers are usually good, but sometimes unaligned or evil. They have a class ability allowing them to defile Half the regular area (at will, free action) rounding down (which means at-wills do not defile at all). Or they can spend a healing surge to completely prevent the defiling done by an encounter power(minor action, at will), or a daily power (move action, at will).
If the preserver runs out of healing surges, and wishes to continue preserving he can become dazed for the rest of encounter as a substitute. After this he may additionally become weakened for the rest of the encounter as a substitute for a healing surge. (taking effect after the spell is cast) Alternatively, if the preserver wishes to continue preserving, he can take hit point damage equivalent to his healing surge value, as a substitute for spending a healing surge.
At Paragon Tier they can cast Encounters without defiling, and spend a healing surge (minor action) to prevent their daily’s from defiling.
At epic they no longer take any penalty for preserving.
I have considered making the defiler and preserver paragon paths, but am undecided. the defiler is pretty powerfull for heroic tier, but its kind of reflective of the original darksun. It would be pretty harsh on the world for preservers to have to wait until paragon path to start preserving. Perhaps limited defiling and preservation abilities could be made available to heroic tier arcane uses, then defiler and preserver could be paragon paths, with dragon king (and its preserver equivalent which i thought was fairly lame) epic destinies.
My plan was of course was too make feats, and also unique powers for both as classes well, much like the original poster did (g00d work BTW), however, i have not gots the patience!!!
i know my idea is fairly rough, but i (personally) think it preserves the original flavor of darksun arcane magic well.
I’m looking forward to more interesting and less crappy epic destinies. The Dragon King Epic destiny will certainly kick ace on anything in the players hand book (or it should at least).
Originally posted by jonplaywu:
the above rules make the defiler not only broken, as you can weaken every enemy in range, but you also hamper every ally around you.
take a look at the feats I put into my rules, they allow some ability to “channel” your defil in this direction but onlt teh dragon should pull life force from a living creature.
Did nyone look at my avangion dragon rules?
Originally posted by Tectuktitlay:
I don’t know if I like the requirement to move about the board and stand in undefiled squares. Instead, I’d rather have an increasing sized single template if you are standing in a previously defiled area (which also fits the fluff). So, for example, on turn one you defile a burst 1. Turn two, you don’t move and the burst increases to a burst 2. Next turn, you shift one square, still inside the burst 2, and defile again, turning it into a burst 3. Next turn, you make a full move out of the area and defile again, making a new burst 1.
Yes, this (purposefully) makes continual defiling in the same area inefficient. That’s what happened in the books, as casters had to reach further out to keep siphoning power. Plus, it’ll keep the paperwork down. Now, you just put a single token out to represent each defiled area, with a number on it. More defiling done in the area, the higher the number keeps going up. Any overlap is fine. The most important part is the center square’s location. If a burst overlaps the center square of another burst, the smaller is consumed by the larger, and adds its number to the total of the larger. If you defile in an area covered by more than one burst, ALL such bursts have their numbers increased the appropriate amount. 
Then, as one final balance, subtract the number of squares you are away from the center of a defiled burst from the size of the burst itself. If your character is a higher level than that number, you can defile as normal. Otherwise, you cannot defile until you move.
It sounds a little complicated, I know. But try it out. It’s actually REALLY easy to keep track of all the defiling when you put in on a grid/map and actually use it.
For example, each # below = burst size. D = Defiler. The green "X"s = undefiled squares, and the black "X"s represent defiled squares (NOTE: Remember, only the numbered squares will actually have a physical representation on the board in-game, the green and black "X"s are just a visual aid presented in this post for reference).
[quote]XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXX1XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXDXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX2XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX[/quote]
…becomes the following when a defile Burst 1 is cast by the defiler:
[quote]XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXDXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX4XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX[/quote]
This defiler can defile again where he is standing if he is level 4 or higher (Burst 4 minus 1 square away = 3. So, the defiler must be higher than level 3 to defile from his current square).
ETA: Alternatively, move the defiler one square to the left, and instead…
[quote]XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXX1XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXDXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX2XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX[/quote]
…becomes the following when a defile Burst 1 is cast by the defiler:
[quote]XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXX2XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXDXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX3XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX[/quote]
Which immediately becomes:
[quote]XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXDXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX5XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX[/quote]
This defiler can still defile again where he is standing if he is level 4 or higher (Burst 5 minus 2 square away = 3. So, the defiler must be higher than level 3 to defile from his current square), because while the burst value is now 1 larger, the defiler is an additional square away from the center of the burst.
Whew. Anyhow, it looks complicated, but once you are used to it, which takes a few seconds, tops, it’s by far the least troublesome way of keeping track of defiled areas that I’ve found.