4e Half-Giant Racial Levels

[raddu (Robert Adducci)]

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

Some of you may know I am kind of a Darksun fan and purist. I did not like the Goliath as Half Giant in 4E or the genocide of the Dray race and sub race to shoe horn the Dragonborn into Athas.Put simply I wanted a 12’ Half Giant that was based heavily on the 2E source material.4E design decisions made that difficult although you could probably make such a race in 3rd ed with a level adjustment. The 2E Hlaf Giant was really a big beatstick with a bucket of hit points.

Since in 5E having a class with +4 strength is a bad idea I thought on how to make the half giant fit. I remembered in 3.0 Savage Species they had monster races as classes so the PC would grow into his racial abilities as such. BECMI also had race as class as well so I thought I would try this in 5E. The idea of this half giant is just to be as tough as guts in terms of hit points, at higher levels it will not get multiple attacks like a fighter but it will get to break the 20 strength limit like the level 20 Barbarian just at earlier levels.

To balance that out the Half Giant will not be getting class features like spells like the ranger and paladin. It will not get multiple atatcks either but I may consider that it might get bonus dice of damage instead. I started using the fighter and tweaking it from there. Here is what I have so far ATM it is only 5 levels. Also note Half Giants do not get to multiclass, if a player picks one that is it tough luck. Yes I am aware that the HG can use a shield and a two handed sword at the same time, average damge is still roughly on par with the duelist fighting style. In effect being large is the HG fighting style.

Planned higher level abilites will be things like better reach, being able to get to 24 strength and extra dice of damage instead of multiple attacks. The HG will be a simple beatstick with a bucket of hit points.

Class Features
As a Half Giant you gain the following class features.

Ability Score Increase. Your constitution and strength score increases by 2.

Giant Heritage counts as a giant, not humanoid

Physical. You have proficiency in the Athletics skill.

Hit Dice: 1d12 per Half Giant level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d12 (or 7) + your Constitution modifier per Half Giant level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: All armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution

Skills: Choose two skills from Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, and Survival

[UNKNOWN=table]: [UNKNOWN=tbody]: [UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]Level[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]Proficiency Bonus[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]Features[//ATT]

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]1[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+2[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Large, Giant Heritage

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]2[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+2[//ATT]

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]3[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+2[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Rock Throwing

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]4[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+2[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Ability Score Improvement

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]5[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+3[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Extra Attack

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]6[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+3[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Ability Score Improvement

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]7[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+3[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Giant Strength

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]8[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+3[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Ability Score Improvement

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]9[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+4[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Resilient Brute

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]10[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+4[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Giant Archetype

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]11[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+4[//ATT]

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]12[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+4[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Ability Score Improvement

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]13[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+5[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Bash (1)

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]14[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+5[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Ability Score Improvement

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]15[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+5[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Giant Archetype

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]16[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+5[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Ability Score Improvement

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]17[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+6[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Bash (2)

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]18[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+6[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Giant Archtype

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]19[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+6[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Ability Score Improvement

[UNKNOWN=tr]: UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]20[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: [ATT align]+6[//ATT]

UNKNOWN=td: Brute (2)

Large
You are size large. You may wield a two handed weapon in one hand. You can use two weapon fighting even when the one handed weapons you are wielding are not light. You may not use two weapon fighting with two handed weapons.
Giant Heritage
Your hit point maximum increases by 2, and it increases by 2 every time you gain a level.

Durability
Whenever you roll your hit dice to regain hit points you roll twice and take the better option.

Rock Throwing
You can throw rocks as an improvised weapon. They deal 1d8 damage. Range 60/160.

Ability Score Improvement

When you reach 4th level, and again at 6th, 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Resilient Brute

Starting at level 9th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down on any saving throw you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus
Giant Archetype

Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses your strength ability score. In addition your strength and constitution scores may reach 22. At level 15 you also gain advantage on all strength checks and your strength and constitution scores may reach 24. At level 18 you gain 10’ reach or 15’ with a weapon with the reach property
Brute.

A melee weapon deals one extra die of its damage when the half giant hits with it. At level 20 the half giant deals two extra dice of damage

Bash
When you attack an opponent you may knock them prone if you hit. The opponent is allowed a strength saving throw. The saving throw DC is DC 8+ your proficiency bonus + your strength modifier. If you knock them prone you may make an extra attack using your reaction. You may not use this ability again until you have completed a short rest or long rest. At level 17 you may use this ability twice before completing a short or long rest.

Originally posted by rampant:

LArge is too good for a level 1 benefit, break it up into component abilities and disperse them through the early progression.

OK if this is a class/race combo, the race side is really under whelming, drop a point of con so it’s inline with the other racial stat boosts and let’s try to come up with some additional racial feaures to make it less boring. Also is darkvision really required at all? I mean seriously this is athas for crying out loud. Ditch it and lets try coming up with abilities that are actually fun and that say ‘half-giant’.

Ok off the top of my head I don’t recall which varieties of giant athas had on hand, but I think I’m pretty safe in assuming they had fire, death, and sand, or was it just death and sand? Anyway something to consider is abilities based on which kind of giant you’re getitng powers from, maybe make that a sub-class kind of thing?

Improved critical seems out of place.

Ditch extra attack, I think you’re better off giving them a bonus to damage on strength based attacks, or melee and thrown, something along those lines.

If you want an extra attack equivalent ability there was a neat trick from the 3.5 warhulk where you could turn your melee attacks into area effects, but make that a higher level thing, somewhere between 6-8 for the first version.

Also I don’t think that all those weapon and armor proffs fit the class, I’d say start with simple weapons and maybe light armor but have some features where you can choose to get more advanced proficiences at the cost of othe rpotential features, akin to the 3e rogue talents.

Originally posted by Cyber-Dave:

As a Dark Sun fan and purist, I don’t really like it. I don’t like races as classes. This is what I did with the race:

Half-Giant
Ability Score Increase: You gain a total increase of 4 between your Strength and Constitution scores. You may divide that increase between those two Abilities as you see fit, though you must increase each Ability score by at least 1.
Size: Half-giants vary in size from 10 to 12 feet tall and weigh up to 1,600 pounds. Half-giants are considered to be large in size. You fill a 10 by 10 foot space, can be surrounded by 12 foes, and fill 1 ½ “units” when surrounding an adversary. When holding a versatile weapon with one hand, you gain the benefits of using the weapon two-handed. You may choose to use a weapon that has the two-handed weapon property, but not the oversized weapon property, in one hand. When you do so, its damage dice are reduced by one size. For example, a greataxe used in one hand would deal 1d10 damage. If the weapon normally deals 2d6 damage, its damage die also becomes 1d10. Additionally, you can use weapons with the “oversized” quality without taking disadvantage to attack rolls (see the new equipment rules). You may not, however, wear any armor or clothing not designed for your size. Armor and clothing designed for half-giants costs twice the normal price and weighs twice as much as normal.
Speed: Your base land speed is 30 feet.
Boulder Toss: You are considered to be proficient with any improvised thrown weapon.
Giant Among Men: Unlike most characters, half-giants may raise their natural Strength score to 22 instead of 20. Additionally, you have advantage when making Strength checks to break an object.
Half-Giant Toughness: Your hit point maximum increases by 1, and it increases by 1 every time you gain a level.
Increased Carrying Capacity: Your carrying capacity is equal to double what a normal character with your Strength score can carry.
Large Appetite: You must eat and drink four times as much as medium characters or suffer the appropriate penalties.
Mercurial Nature: When choosing an alignment, you choose one fixed point of axis: lawful, chaotic, good, or evil. This element of your alignment never changes. After every long rest, however, you must change the other element of your alignment to one that matches some other member of your adventuring party. If everyone in your adventuring party shares the same element of their alignment, you may keep that element indefinitely or change your alignment to an element within one step of theirs after spending a day using their alignment, your choice.
For example, a good half-giant who happens to be neutral good on a particular day must become either lawful good or chaotic good, depending on what alignments the rest of his adventuring party possesses, after their next long rest. If the entire party is either lawful or neutral, the half-giant must change their alignment to lawful good. If everyone in the group is chaotic, the half-giant must change their alignment to chaotic good, and can maintain that alignment indefinitely. The half giant may still, however, choose to become neutral good after any day spent as a chaotic good character.
You should emphasize the slightly unhinged nature of a half-giant’s personality when role-playing.
Languages: You can speak, read, and write one language of your choice. It is strongly advised that you choose common.

Oversized: Oversized weapons are designed specifically for half-giants. The oversized property may be applied to any weapon that has both the heavy and two-handed weapon properties. An oversized weapon weighs three times its normal weight and costs double its normal price. In return, its damage dice are increased by one step. For example, a 1d10 weapon becomes a 1d12 weapon; both 2d6 and 1d12 weapons become 2d8 weapons. Small creatures cannot wield oversized weapons. Medium creatures can wield oversized weapons, but they take disadvantage to their attack rolls when they are doing so. Large and medium sized creatures must wield oversized weapons in two hands.

Originally posted by rampant:

I hate to agree with zardnaar, but I prefer his approach.

Dave, your version is everything that was wrong with 3e race design wrapped up into a single package, except for ability penalties.

See a lot of stuff like being really big, aving all sorts of weapon use advantages and such is just unreasonable for a race, It quickly becomes OP with certain classes, and dead useless for others. So moving those aspects to a class progression or even a partial one allows the use of superior ‘racial traits’ without disrupting race balance.

Originally posted by sleypy:

I actually like it Zardnaar. I think it would be interesting to cap the race levels at 5 (or 3 maybe) and use it with the multi-classing rules. There might need to be some half-giant features that change based on character level to make up for losing levels at the end game.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]sleypy wrote:I actually like it Zardnaar. I think it would be interesting to cap the race levels at 5 (or 3 maybe) and use it with the multi-classing rules. There might need to be some half-giant features that change based on character level to make up for losing levels at the end game.

[/quote]
I was going to make it a level 20 class but this may not be a bad idea. I’ll see how it works out for designing higher level features and think about makign it a 5 level class.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:LArge is too good for a level 1 benefit, break it up into component abilities and disperse them through the early progression.

OK if this is a class/race combo, the race side is really under whelming, drop a point of con so it’s inline with the other racial stat boosts and let’s try to come up with some additional racial feaures to make it less boring. Also is darkvision really required at all? I mean seriously this is athas for crying out loud. Ditch it and lets try coming up with abilities that are actually fun and that say ‘half-giant’.

Ok off the top of my head I don’t recall which varieties of giant athas had on hand, but I think I’m pretty safe in assuming they had fire, death, and sand, or was it just death and sand? Anyway something to consider is abilities based on which kind of giant you’re getitng powers from, maybe make that a sub-class kind of thing?

Improved critical seems out of place.

Ditch extra attack, I think you’re better off giving them a bonus to damage on strength based attacks, or melee and thrown, something along those lines.

If you want an extra attack equivalent ability there was a neat trick from the 3.5 warhulk where you could turn your melee attacks into area effects, but make that a higher level thing, somewhere between 6-8 for the first version.

Also I don’t think that all those weapon and armor proffs fit the class, I’d say start with simple weapons and maybe light armor but have some features where you can choose to get more advanced proficiences at the cost of othe rpotential features, akin to the 3e rogue talents.

[/quote]
I’m ot using sub races as such as the 2E half Giant it did not matter in regards to your heritage.

Improved critical is there as a place holder, I might replace it with some sort of reach ability IDK. The race side has been moved to the class part hence why things like large may seem a bit OP as the race part is underwhelming hewnce they they in effect have the durable feat instead second wind at level 1, These effects are supposed to mimic the 2E half giant. I’m not to worried if the class is boring as long as its power level is about right in regards to the other martial classses but mostly fighter. The 2E half giant did not get much in terms of racial abilites.

2E HG
Large size. Can use 2 handed weapons in one hand.
+4 str, +2con, -2 wis/int/cha
More expensive equipment, neeeds more water
Change alignment at will each day
Half-giants double their hit die rolls no matter what their character class. Add any bonus for a high Constitution score after doubling the roll of the die.

[raddu (Robert Adducci)]

Originally posted by rampant:

There’s no reason you can’t jazz it up now.

Although I can see your point about not wanting to differentiate based on gian tribe.

The big things here are tough, strong, and big right?

Well then ou should probably spend the first couple of levels building up a base line of each of those and then start offering the choice to take half-giant talents with a talent chain for each of the three so each half-giant can choose to focus on insane strength, sheer size, toughness, or a combination there of.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:There’s no reason you can’t jazz it up now.

Although I can see your point about not wanting to differentiate based on gian tribe.

The big things here are tough, strong, and big right?

Well then ou should probably spend the first couple of levels building up a base line of each of those and then start offering the choice to take half-giant talents with a talent chain for each of the three so each half-giant can choose to focus on insane strength, sheer size, toughness, or a combination there of.

[/quote]
Yup and thats the 1st things I focused on giving he half giants. I’m happy with the +2 hit point thing it is really only the durable feat being subbed in for second wind. Large looks good but I but the chasis was the figher class so you are giving up a weapon style for that. Large is still kind of better I suppose at later levels you could use a shield and a great sword and take the heavy weapon master feat for example but that has also been considered as I think second wind is better than durable and the durability ability is not as good as action surge IMHO.

Thats why I thoght the large thing was not to bad. Yes it is powerful but it is part of your class feature as opposed to racial so you can’t break the game by mixing it with other classes. Right now I suspect the HG may be on the weak side of things compared to a normal fighter and I am thinking of some sort of improved reach ability at level 3.

I want to get a large creature into the game that can break the 20 ability score limit to some extent and class features was the only way I could figure out how to do it without obsoleting the other races/classes I have written some defiloing rules and can refluff a lot of the 5E PHB to fit Darksun. Instead of multiple attacks at higher levels I was going to give it bonus dice of damage like the cleric and bugbears. The HG will still get an extra attack at level 5 like the Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin/Fighter but attack 3 and 4 are fighter things IMHO so the HG will not get them. The plan is to give it the same amount of ability boosts as the fighter though so it can grow into its strength and pick up a feat or 2.

Originally posted by rampant:

Given how good large is I seriously think you should hold back extra attack a level or two, or maybe specfy that you can’t target the same creature with it as you did your first.

As for durability there are some issues, advantage as described doens’t really apply to non-d20 rolls so what I would advise is re-writing it to say that whenever you roll your hit dice to restor HP you roll twice and take the better option.

Giant heritage covers the max HP nicely.

Also consider this instead of improved critical: Power of Jotunbrood - You gain a pool of xd6 that refreshes at the end of your turn each round. You may roll and add the result of any number of these d6 to the damage to a single target of an attack you make that uses your strength modifier.

Then as the class progresses you get more dice.

Also consider area effect attacks like stomping or screaming so loud you actually create wind.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:Given how good large is I seriously think you should hold back extra attack a level or two, or maybe specfy that you can’t target the same creature with it as you did your first.

As for durability there are some issues, advantage as described doens’t really apply to non-d20 rolls so what I would advise is re-writing it to say that whenever you roll your hit dice to restor HP you roll twice and take the better option.

Giant heritage covers the max HP nicely.

Also consider this instead of improved critical: Power of Jotunbrood - You gain a pool of xd6 that refreshes at the end of your turn each round. You may roll and add the result of any number of these d6 to the damage to a single target of an attack you make that uses your strength modifier.

Then as the class progresses you get more dice.

Also consider area effect attacks like stomping or screaming so loud you actually create wind.

[/quote]Durability needs a rewrite agreed, some good ideass there.

Dice pool, good idea but part of the idea of this class is for PCs who find the chamion to complex. I like the idea though so it can rattle around for a bit. Not to worried about stomping and screaming although stomping on prone targets could be fun. Short rest recharges knock prone ability at level 3 maybe DC8+prof bonus+str modifier? Get bowled over and stomped into the ground? Might have to wait until higher levels perhaps IDK.

Based on feedback tweaked the HG. Dumped Darvision as it seems the 2E one lacks it and gave them athletics as a bonus skill. Tweaked durability feature and added level 6-10 sort of. Looking for replacement abilites for improved critical and some class features for levels 7,9 and 10. Level 7 tinking of something like advantage on strength checks and can go to 22 strength.

Any ability related to stomping, reach, overbearing, would fit the them. Not looking for bonus damage ATM but after level 10 thats an option as the HG will not get any more multiple attacks.

Originally posted by Rastapopoulos:

Half-Giants were never made to be “balanced” with other races, mechanically speaking. As warriors they were just plain better than any other race: incredible Str and Con bonuses, double-HD, size, etc.

The “balance” came in the form of role-playing and survival issues.

Concerning the former, half-giants were sort of mentally unstable, with very low self esteem to the point that they would have only one part of their alignment and would choose someone else from another race that would be like a role-model for them. Worse, this wasn’t a fixed individual and could change very often. Role-playing a half-giant was basically for those really in the mood for it. Socially they were also treated mostly as scum, losing maybe only to the Mul as far as social prejudice is concerned.

Concerning the latter, survival, the fact that a half-giant needs 4x the ammount of water and food was already a BIG drawback. In Dark Sun more than any other setting this was a really big deal. Might add here too that their size could cause problems for entering some places eventually.

Those two elements were balancing enough that I never played a Dark Sun game where half-giants were the go-to choice for fighters. In fact most players would choose Mul or Dwarf instead once they pondered on the troubles of playing a half-giant. That’s not to say this was a turn-off for the people who actually liked to play the race for what it was in the context of Athas. Those difficulties could actually be fun to play and it was actually the people who really liked the race who ended up playing it. Most people who wanted it just for the “power” usually gave up and went with the less clunky choice of Mul and Dwarf.

However, if the DM ignored such elements as social and survival issues then yes, the race would be just very overpowered. But a DM who ignores those things in a Dark Sun game… I wonder if he’s DMing the right setting for him. They are two of the major elements of the setting, and two of the major challenges a players is supposed to encounter in it.

Dark Sun, as it was devised in 2e, is a setting that WANTS your characters to be very powerful. All other characters are also high above the average D&D character of 2e, in their own way. And yet despite all that the world of Athas has ways to show you how powerless you are. Despite all your “numeric” power you can much more easily die in Athas than any other world of D&D if you are careless.

So Zard… I would not make it any different in 5e, and I would not try to “go light” on Dark Sun races so that they have any semblance of balance with other settings. 4e tried to do that and ended up with a poor joke of a setting that was borderline insulting to Dark Sun fans.
I would give the Half-Giant at least a +6 to Strength and probably something around +3 to Constitution.
I would give them some sort of bonus to HP too, as they had in 2e (maybe something like the Dwarf has in 5e).
I would even let them dual-wield Greatswords as they did in 2e.

And I don’t care if they turn out to be massive weapons of destruction. That’s what they’re supposed to be, and the same drawbacks they had in 2e Dark Sun should still be there if playing it in 5e. It’s still the same world.

I would also boost every other race when played in Dark Sun, and raise the ability cap from 20 to at least 22 for humans and similar races. As well as give everyone more points to buy, or roll 4d4+4 abilities if rolling.

It may be 5e, but it still should feel like Dark Sun.

Of course that’s what I would do… but it seems that… gods-forbid these days you use something like role-playing as means of balancing something in the game. Unthinkable!
The mathsss gotsss to be neatssss…

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]Rastapopoulos wrote:
Half-Giants were never made to be “balanced” with other races, mechanically speaking. As warriors they were just plain better than any other race: incredible Str and Con bonuses, double-HD, size, etc.

The “balance” came in the form of role-playing and survival issues.

Concerning the former, half-giants were sort of mentally unstable, with very low self esteem to the point that they would have only one part of their alignment and would choose someone else from another race that would be like a role-model for them. Worse, this wasn’t a fixed individual and could change very often. Role-playing a half-giant was basically for those really in the mood for it. Socially they were also treated mostly as scum, losing maybe only to the Mul as far as social prejudice is concerned.

Concerning the latter, survival, the fact that a half-giant needs 4x the ammount of water and food was already a BIG drawback. In Dark Sun more than any other setting this was a really big deal. Might add here too that their size could cause problems for entering some places eventually.

Those two elements were balancing enough that I never played a Dark Sun game where half-giants were the go-to choice for fighters. In fact most players would choose Mul or Dwarf instead once they pondered on the troubles of playing a half-giant. That’s not to say this was a turn-off for the people who actually liked to play the race for what it was in the context of Athas. Those difficulties could actually be fun to play and it was actually the people who really liked the race who ended up playing it. Most people who wanted it just for the “power” usually gave up and went with the less clunky choice of Mul and Dwarf.

However, if the DM ignored such elements as social and survival issues then yes, the race would be just very overpowered. But a DM who ignores those things in a Dark Sun game… I wonder if he’s DMing the right setting for him. They are two of the major elements of the setting, and two of the major challenges a players is supposed to encounter in it.

Dark Sun, as it was devised in 2e, is a setting that WANTS your characters to be very powerful. All other characters are also high above the average D&D character of 2e, in their own way. And yet despite all that the world of Athas has ways to show you how powerless you are. Despite all your “numeric” power you can much more easily die in Athas than any other world of D&D if you are careless.

So Zard… I would not make it any different in 5e, and I would not try to “go light” on Dark Sun races so that they have any semblance of balance with other settings. 4e tried to do that and ended up with a poor joke of a setting that was borderline insulting to Dark Sun fans.
I would give the Half-Giant at least a +6 to Strength and probably something around +3 to Constitution.
I would give them some sort of bonus to HP too, as they had in 2e (maybe something like the Dwarf has in 5e).
I would even let them dual-wield Greatswords as they did in 2e.

And I don’t care if they turn out to be massive weapons of destruction. That’s what they’re supposed to be, and the same drawbacks they had in 2e Dark Sun should still be there if playing it in 5e. It’s still the same world.

I would also boost every other race when played in Dark Sun, and raise the ability cap from 20 to at least 22 for humans and similar races. As well as give everyone more points to buy, or roll 4d4+4 abilities if rolling.

It may be 5e, but it still should feel like Dark Sun.

Of course that’s what I would do… but it seems that… gods-forbid these days you use something like role-playing as means of balancing something in the game. Unthinkable!
The mathsss gotsss to be neatssss…

[/quote]
Similar opinion in a lot of ways. I am also aiming to make it useable on other worlds. The extra food and costs will be added in later, the change alignment thing is mostly RP really so one can read 2E fluff and go that way as there are no mechanical punishments for changing alignment in 5E anymore.

Originally posted by rampant:

It’s basically a cross compatibility thing, there’s enough people that care about class and race balance now that outright ignoring it like was done previously causes problems. Especially since organized play seems to be something they wanna push.

There are already two very good ways to reprsent the stronger characters of athas that don’t require poorly made races, especially sinc half giants are something that could concieviably pop up in non-athas worlds. Higher starting level, or in 4e they added powerful third character creation pillars (which admittedly jumped setting and spread from there), this is often done in addition to nastier monsters and encounters, ruthless attention to supplies and travel hazards, lower monetary wealth assumptions, and the simple fact that the planet really does wanna kill you. None of that requires infecting the game with sloppy design.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:It’s basically a cross compatibility thing, there’s enough people that care about class and race balance now that outright ignoring it like was done previously causes problems. Especially since organized play seems to be something they wanna push.

There are already two very good ways to reprsent the stronger characters of athas that don’t require poorly made races, especially sinc half giants are something that could concieviably pop up in non-athas worlds. Higher starting level, or in 4e they added powerful third character creation pillars (which admittedly jumped setting and spread from there), this is often done in addition to nastier monsters and encounters, ruthless attention to supplies and travel hazards, lower monetary wealth assumptions, and the simple fact that the planet really does wanna kill you. None of that requires infecting the game with sloppy design.

[/quote]
Hence why am tryihg to make a large HG that works as opposed to reskinning a half orc or something and calling it a HG. If you liekd the goliath as HG reskin the half orc and call it a day.

Originally posted by rampant:

NOt particularly it felt kind of lazy, thy should had at least offered an alternate racial power based on size instead of the standard goliath toughness power.

Originally posted by Rastapopoulos:

[quote]Zardnaar wrote:

[quote]Rastapopoulos wrote:
Half-Giants were never made to be “balanced” with other races, mechanically speaking. As warriors they were just plain better than any other race: incredible Str and Con bonuses, double-HD, size, etc.

The “balance” came in the form of role-playing and survival issues.

Concerning the former, half-giants were sort of mentally unstable, with very low self esteem to the point that they would have only one part of their alignment and would choose someone else from another race that would be like a role-model for them. Worse, this wasn’t a fixed individual and could change very often. Role-playing a half-giant was basically for those really in the mood for it. Socially they were also treated mostly as scum, losing maybe only to the Mul as far as social prejudice is concerned.

Concerning the latter, survival, the fact that a half-giant needs 4x the ammount of water and food was already a BIG drawback. In Dark Sun more than any other setting this was a really big deal. Might add here too that their size could cause problems for entering some places eventually.

Those two elements were balancing enough that I never played a Dark Sun game where half-giants were the go-to choice for fighters. In fact most players would choose Mul or Dwarf instead once they pondered on the troubles of playing a half-giant. That’s not to say this was a turn-off for the people who actually liked to play the race for what it was in the context of Athas. Those difficulties could actually be fun to play and it was actually the people who really liked the race who ended up playing it. Most people who wanted it just for the “power” usually gave up and went with the less clunky choice of Mul and Dwarf.

However, if the DM ignored such elements as social and survival issues then yes, the race would be just very overpowered. But a DM who ignores those things in a Dark Sun game… I wonder if he’s DMing the right setting for him. They are two of the major elements of the setting, and two of the major challenges a players is supposed to encounter in it.

Dark Sun, as it was devised in 2e, is a setting that WANTS your characters to be very powerful. All other characters are also high above the average D&D character of 2e, in their own way. And yet despite all that the world of Athas has ways to show you how powerless you are. Despite all your “numeric” power you can much more easily die in Athas than any other world of D&D if you are careless.

So Zard… I would not make it any different in 5e, and I would not try to “go light” on Dark Sun races so that they have any semblance of balance with other settings. 4e tried to do that and ended up with a poor joke of a setting that was borderline insulting to Dark Sun fans.
I would give the Half-Giant at least a +6 to Strength and probably something around +3 to Constitution.
I would give them some sort of bonus to HP too, as they had in 2e (maybe something like the Dwarf has in 5e).
I would even let them dual-wield Greatswords as they did in 2e.

And I don’t care if they turn out to be massive weapons of destruction. That’s what they’re supposed to be, and the same drawbacks they had in 2e Dark Sun should still be there if playing it in 5e. It’s still the same world.

I would also boost every other race when played in Dark Sun, and raise the ability cap from 20 to at least 22 for humans and similar races. As well as give everyone more points to buy, or roll 4d4+4 abilities if rolling.

It may be 5e, but it still should feel like Dark Sun.

Of course that’s what I would do… but it seems that… gods-forbid these days you use something like role-playing as means of balancing something in the game. Unthinkable!
The mathsss gotsss to be neatssss…

[/quote]
Similar opinion in a lot of ways. I am also aiming to make it useable on other worlds. The extra food and costs will be added in later, the change alignment thing is mostly RP really so one can read 2E fluff and go that way as there are no mechanical punishments for changing alignment in 5E anymore.

[/quote]
The extra food and costs may not be such a big deal for other settings and thus the race may turn out overpowered, but it is a big deal in Dark Sun so “balance” for different settings also differ a lot. Kind of my point in my long previous post.

I would just make the Dark Sun half-giant and then maybe do a “toned down” version for other settings. That is, if you want players to use it in other settings. If they’re just NPCs there’s no problem at all in them being more powerful.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]Rastapopoulos wrote:

[quote]Zardnaar wrote:

[quote]Rastapopoulos wrote:
Half-Giants were never made to be “balanced” with other races, mechanically speaking. As warriors they were just plain better than any other race: incredible Str and Con bonuses, double-HD, size, etc.

The “balance” came in the form of role-playing and survival issues.

Concerning the former, half-giants were sort of mentally unstable, with very low self esteem to the point that they would have only one part of their alignment and would choose someone else from another race that would be like a role-model for them. Worse, this wasn’t a fixed individual and could change very often. Role-playing a half-giant was basically for those really in the mood for it. Socially they were also treated mostly as scum, losing maybe only to the Mul as far as social prejudice is concerned.

Concerning the latter, survival, the fact that a half-giant needs 4x the ammount of water and food was already a BIG drawback. In Dark Sun more than any other setting this was a really big deal. Might add here too that their size could cause problems for entering some places eventually.

Those two elements were balancing enough that I never played a Dark Sun game where half-giants were the go-to choice for fighters. In fact most players would choose Mul or Dwarf instead once they pondered on the troubles of playing a half-giant. That’s not to say this was a turn-off for the people who actually liked to play the race for what it was in the context of Athas. Those difficulties could actually be fun to play and it was actually the people who really liked the race who ended up playing it. Most people who wanted it just for the “power” usually gave up and went with the less clunky choice of Mul and Dwarf.

However, if the DM ignored such elements as social and survival issues then yes, the race would be just very overpowered. But a DM who ignores those things in a Dark Sun game… I wonder if he’s DMing the right setting for him. They are two of the major elements of the setting, and two of the major challenges a players is supposed to encounter in it.

Dark Sun, as it was devised in 2e, is a setting that WANTS your characters to be very powerful. All other characters are also high above the average D&D character of 2e, in their own way. And yet despite all that the world of Athas has ways to show you how powerless you are. Despite all your “numeric” power you can much more easily die in Athas than any other world of D&D if you are careless.

So Zard… I would not make it any different in 5e, and I would not try to “go light” on Dark Sun races so that they have any semblance of balance with other settings. 4e tried to do that and ended up with a poor joke of a setting that was borderline insulting to Dark Sun fans.
I would give the Half-Giant at least a +6 to Strength and probably something around +3 to Constitution.
I would give them some sort of bonus to HP too, as they had in 2e (maybe something like the Dwarf has in 5e).
I would even let them dual-wield Greatswords as they did in 2e.

And I don’t care if they turn out to be massive weapons of destruction. That’s what they’re supposed to be, and the same drawbacks they had in 2e Dark Sun should still be there if playing it in 5e. It’s still the same world.

I would also boost every other race when played in Dark Sun, and raise the ability cap from 20 to at least 22 for humans and similar races. As well as give everyone more points to buy, or roll 4d4+4 abilities if rolling.

It may be 5e, but it still should feel like Dark Sun.

Of course that’s what I would do… but it seems that… gods-forbid these days you use something like role-playing as means of balancing something in the game. Unthinkable!
The mathsss gotsss to be neatssss…

[/quote]
Similar opinion in a lot of ways. I am also aiming to make it useable on other worlds. The extra food and costs will be added in later, the change alignment thing is mostly RP really so one can read 2E fluff and go that way as there are no mechanical punishments for changing alignment in 5E anymore.

[/quote]
The extra food and costs may not be such a big deal for other settings and thus the race may turn out overpowered, but it is a big deal in Dark Sun so “balance” for different settings also differ a lot. Kind of my point in my long previous post.

I would just make the Dark Sun half-giant and then maybe do a “toned down” version for other settings. That is, if you want players to use it in other settings. If they’re just NPCs there’s no problem at all in them being more powerful.

[/quote]
Our half giant in DS was the water carrier and the PCs strapped a barrel of water to his back they bought in Tyr. With the ability to switch alignment the half giant should be the last one to die of thirst

[raddu (Robert Adducci)]

Originally posted by MechaPilot:

[quote]Rastapopoulos wrote:I would just make the Dark Sun half-giant and then maybe do a “toned down” version for other settings. That is, if you want players to use it in other settings. If they’re just NPCs there’s no problem at all in them being more powerful.

[/quote]
I think that might be the best way to go.

Maybe those should be the subraces: Athasian HG, and Non-Athasian HG.

Originally posted by rampant:

Well if that’s how you wanna do it you really need to re-write all the races for athas, 3e did this and I thought it was a decent approach, even if some of the execution was a bit off.

The point is that while yes the standards were different for Darksun, you have to implement those differences accross the board, having some races written for DS, and some not is gonna cause trouble if you ever try to mix them.

Originally posted by GhostStepper:

I like the idea of monstrous racial options simply starting out at level X with appropriate HP and features for that level and then having character class levels on top of that. For example, if we decide that a Half-giant, with all it’s features including size, reach an extra strength is at the same power level as a 5th level character with class abilities, then a starting Half-giant PC is automatically 5th level with full Half-giant features including the HP and hit dice of a 5th level character. Then, the PC adds class levels on top of this chasis. Basically, if the ECL system of 3e actually functioned properly (with LA insuring that monster PC always had crap hp, BAB and saves).

The drawback is that you obviously can’t start out with these sorts of PCs in a level one campaign but the advantage is that you don’t have unusual situations where a player is playing a PC that somehow is only partially whatever monsters he is playing, mechanically.

Originally posted by MechaPilot:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:Basically, if the ECL system of 3e actually functioned properly (with LA insuring that monster PC always had crap hp, BAB and saves).

[/quote]
That’s the rub though, it never worked properly. Not only did it have the HP, BAB, and save issues you mentioned, but there was also the issue of situational abilities like winged flight causing creatures to be given much higher LAs than they really deserved.

Originally posted by Cyber-Dave:

[quote]rampant wrote:I hate to agree with zardnaar, but I prefer his approach.

Dave, your version is everything that was wrong with 3e race design wrapped up into a single package, except for ability penalties.

See a lot of stuff like being really big, aving all sorts of weapon use advantages and such is just unreasonable for a race, It quickly becomes OP with certain classes, and dead useless for others. So moving those aspects to a class progression or even a partial one allows the use of superior ‘racial traits’ without disrupting race balance.

[/quote]
I could not agree with you less. It is not overpowered to have a marginally higher DPR, and that is all the giant bonuses will amount to. Giants will have a slight DPR advantage. They can also, however, be surrounded by more foes. At higher levels, that is a real disadvantage in next. They will also have a huge disadvantage in the exploration department in Dark Sun (due to the extra rations a half-giant must consume). I do not think my version (in the context of a game where food and water is scarce and are a resource to be kept track of) is unbalanced. I aso do not think it is a problem for a race to excel at certain class choices over other class choices. In the lore of Dark Sun, half-gaints were created for brute labor and to act as shock troops. They were genetically engineered for those purposes by the Sorcerer Kings. I do not think it is a problem for the races stats to reflect that, so long as there is still a reason to play other race choices in the class department where the half-giant excels, and there is; the half-giant will have an advantage if you are building a character for pure DPR, but it will suffer in other areas of the game as a result. We will have to agree to disagree.

I just really, really, really don’t like race as class design, and I happen to think it is against the spirit of Dark Sun.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]Cyber-Dave wrote:

[quote]rampant wrote:I hate to agree with zardnaar, but I prefer his approach.

Dave, your version is everything that was wrong with 3e race design wrapped up into a single package, except for ability penalties.

See a lot of stuff like being really big, aving all sorts of weapon use advantages and such is just unreasonable for a race, It quickly becomes OP with certain classes, and dead useless for others. So moving those aspects to a class progression or even a partial one allows the use of superior ‘racial traits’ without disrupting race balance.

[/quote]
I could not agree with you less. It is not overpowered to have a marginally higher DPR, and that is all the giant bonuses will amount to. Giants will have a slight DPR advantage. They can also, however, be surrounded by more foes. At higher levels, that is a real disadvantage in next. They will also have a huge disadvantage in the exploration department in Dark Sun (due to the extra rations a half-giant must consume). I do not think my version (in the context of a game where food and water is scarce and are a resource to be kept track of) is unbalanced. I aso do not think it is a problem for a class to excel at certain class choices over other class choices. In the lore of Dark Sun, half-gaints were created for brute labor and to act as shock troops. They were genetically engineered for those purposes by the Sorcerer Kings. I do not think it is a problem for the races stats to reflect that, so long as there is still a reason to play other race choices in the class department where the half-giant excels, and there is; the half-giant will have an advantage if you are building a character for pure DPR, but it will suffer in other areas of the game as a result. We will have to agree to disagree.

I just really, really, really don’t like race as class design, and I happen to think it is against the spirit of Dark Sun.

[/quote]
The spirit of Darksun would just let the half giant be unbalanced in the modern era. +4 strength, +2 con, size large, double rolled hit points+con modifier. The Darksun races were never remotely balanced nor were they meant to be. If I allow a HG like that I may power up theopther races with simoar stas to the 2E versions of them or even give them the 2nd ed +5E stat bumps.

Whats more important to you. The spirit of Darksun or balance or are you going to try and claim both? It was clear in 2E the races were not balanced by design.

Originally posted by Cyber-Dave:

[quote]Zardnaar wrote:
The spirit of Darksun would just let the half giant be unbalnced in the modern era. +4 strength, +2 con, size large, double rolled hit points+con modifier. The Darksun races were never remotely balanced nor were they meant to be. If I allow a HG like that I may power up theopther races with simoar stas to the 2E versions of them or even give them the 2nd ed +5E stat bumps.

[/quote]
If you say so. I think it is possible to create Dark Sun races that are both balanced (though not necessarily balanced in a homogenized sense across all the pillars) and built within the spirit of that setting. We can agree to disagree though! I won’t hold it against you.

Originally posted by MechaPilot:

[quote]Cyber-Dave wrote:I just really, really, really don’t like race as class design. . .

[/quote]
I’m not a Dark Sun fan, so I don’t know if race as class is against the spirit of Dark Sun, but I agree with you about hating race as class design.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]Cyber-Dave wrote:

[quote]Zardnaar wrote:
The spirit of Darksun would just let the half giant be unbalnced in the modern era. +4 strength, +2 con, size large, double rolled hit points+con modifier. The Darksun races were never remotely balanced nor were they meant to be. If I allow a HG like that I may power up theopther races with simoar stas to the 2E versions of them or even give them the 2nd ed +5E stat bumps.

[/quote]
If you say so. I think it is possible to create Dark Sun races that are both balanced (though not necessarily balanced in a homogenized sense across all the pillars) and built within the spirit of that setting. We can agree to disagree though! I won’t hold it against you.

[/quote]
I would like some feedback on this concept though as I’m not 100% sure hwo to build it at hgiher levels. The only reason I wanted race as class was I wanted to have a large giant in the game like the 2E ones, not a fan of the rekin a goliath approach. I could rewrite the ther races and power them up as well I suppose and just let the HG get to 24 strength and have +4 str and +2 con I suppose. The basseline DS races were more powerful than AD&D core races anyway. A hared encounter can easily be treated as a medium encounter, deadly becomes hard to account for PC power creep.

For DS though I do not want to return to the balance at all cost approach of 4E. If some races are more powerful so what?

Originally posted by GhostStepper:

[quote]MechaPilot wrote:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:Basically, if the ECL system of 3e actually functioned properly (with LA insuring that monster PC always had crap hp, BAB and saves).

[/quote]
That’s the rub though, it never worked properly. Not only did it have the HP, BAB, and save issues you mentioned, but there was also the issue of situational abilities like winged flight causing creatures to be given much higher LAs than they really deserved.

[/quote]
That’s why we won’t ever use that. I’m advocating that if a monstrous race counts as level X, it gets the HP and saves of a something of level X. No LA.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:

[quote]MechaPilot wrote:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:Basically, if the ECL system of 3e actually functioned properly (with LA insuring that monster PC always had crap hp, BAB and saves).

[/quote]
That’s the rub though, it never worked properly. Not only did it have the HP, BAB, and save issues you mentioned, but there was also the issue of situational abilities like winged flight causing creatures to be given much higher LAs than they really deserved.

[/quote]
That’s why we won’t ever use that. I’m advocating that if a monstrous race counts as level X, it gets the HP and saves of a something of level X. No LA.

[/quote]
And thats why if said race gets flight as a racial feature it might make sense to have that race be done as a class as stacking flight onto an existing class via racial feature is kind of hard to balance. I had flying Aasimar Paladins/fighter using great sword, power attack type buiilds in 3.5 as they had racial feats allowing flight. In the context of 3.5 that was not broken as such, it was power creep though.

Originally posted by sleypy:

[quote]MechaPilot wrote:

[quote]Cyber-Dave wrote:I just really, really, really don’t like race as class design. . .

[/quote]
I’m not a Dark Sun fan, so I don’t know if race as class is against the spirit of Dark Sun, but I agree with you about hating race as class design.

[/quote]
I would prefer to be able to swap level like archtypes do in pathfinder. I would rather have race as class level over what they did to goliaths in 4e (having them be 2 inch too short to be considered large.)

Originally posted by rampant:

One of the reasons LA never worked right was because what worked for Monsters would be either useless for PCs or incredibly OP. At-will use of potent support spells, constant access to high end movement modes like teleport or burrow, even if you got to a level where it was supposedly not a big deal it was a vast departure from what PCs were traditionally capable of and adventure design rarely makes concessions for the party’s Wyvern Knight (great in a fight, difficult to get into a dungeon). Heck Undead with spawn powers are a perfect example and there were a few of them low enough level for it to be a danger, especially since PC characters could fall to such creatures and rise again as one of them with said powers. The ability to create obedient monsters that scaled with level so cheaply was huge in a PC’s hands, especially since the rules allowed you to chain spawn more monsters through your current spawn. NOt an issue for a monster to pull those tricks, but a big deal for a PC.

The half giant having all sorts of weapon bonuses isn’t just a problem with other races, it makes the race hugely dependent on a certain set of classes, it viciously punishes them for playing anything but a weapon user by rendering their racial features irrelevant. It’s perfectly possible to design features for half-giants that show off their power, durability, and size without pigeonholing them.

As for balance with other races I don’t see why this is a such a sticking poitn either. People from Athas are supposed to be stronger than those who live in cushy places like ravenloft, or sigil right? Then either all the races should get a power up, or there should be a differnet bonus handed out to Athas players to get the point accross.

IF you want powerful races for no cost in athas then all the races need to be powerful, athasian humans are supposed to be total beasts anyway right?

If you wanna import a powerful race from athas without moderating them a bit then there needs to be a cost associated with it otherwise you’re just being sloppy.

Using class levels is an acceptable way to do this, especially as none of the abilities are too disruptive, this is especially useful in the case of a race with a lot of built in specialization like omeone who wants a traditional weapon focused half-giant because it’s a lot more ok for a class to specialize in weapons than it is for a set of racial features.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:One of the reasons LA never worked right was because what worked for Monsters would be either useless for PCs or incredibly OP. At-will use of potent support spells, constant access to high end movement modes like teleport or burrow, even if you got to a level where it was supposedly not a big deal it was a vast departure from what PCs were traditionally capable of and adventure design rarely makes concessions for the party’s Wyvern Knight (great in a fight, difficult to get into a dungeon). Heck Undead with spawn powers are a perfect example and there were a few of them low enough level for it to be a danger, especially since PC characters could fall to such creatures and rise again as one of them with said powers. The ability to create obedient monsters that scaled with level so cheaply was huge in a PC’s hands, especially since the rules allowed you to chain spawn more monsters through your current spawn. NOt an issue for a monster to pull those tricks, but a big deal for a PC.

The half giant having all sorts of weapon bonuses isn’t just a problem with other races, it makes the race hugely dependent on a certain set of classes, it viciously punishes them for playing anything but a weapon user by rendering their racial features irrelevant. It’s perfectly possible to design features for half-giants that show off their power, durability, and size without pigeonholing them.

As for balance with other races I don’t see why this is a such a sticking poitn either. People from Athas are supposed to be stronger than those who live in cushy places like ravenloft, or sigil right? Then either all the races should get a power up, or there should be a differnet bonus handed out to Athas players to get the point accross.

IF you want powerful races for no cost in athas then all the races need to be powerful, athasian humans are supposed to be total beasts anyway right?

If you wanna import a powerful race from athas without moderating them a bit then there needs to be a cost associated with it otherwise you’re just being sloppy.

Using class levels is an acceptable way to do this, especially as none of the abilities are too disruptive, this is especially useful in the case of a race with a lot of built in specialization like omeone who wants a traditional weapon focused half-giant because it’s a lot more ok for a class to specialize in weapons than it is for a set of racial features.

[/quote]
Half giants were terrible spellcasters in 2E due to racial penalties. ou could technically be a cleric I suppose as that was the only spellcaster HG could be.

Originally posted by rampant:

And why exactly is that a problem now? The devs learned not to hand out ability penalties in a game where ability scores are a primary driver of class powers,a we ditched race-class restrictions when 3e rolled out.

If you can play a half-orc paladin I see no reason a half-giant can’t be a wilder or a ranger.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:And why exactly is that a problem now? The devs learned not to hand out ability penalties in a game where ability scores are a primary driver of class powers,a we ditched race-class restrictions when 3e rolled out.

If you can play a half-orc paladin I see no reason a half-giant can’t be a wilder or a ranger.

[/quote]
It would be hard to balance a classic HG in that regard. As I said I want a classic 2E DS type half giant, the trade off is you are more or less a beat stuick. If you want to run a HG XYZ you will have to break the game, buff all the other races (which is what DS did) or play 4E type goliath (no thanks). I figured making a single race and class was less owork than rewriting all the races.

Originally posted by rampant:

Which is why in your case the class level trick works. By making half-giants into a class, or a partial class you’re allowed to specialize them more than would be acceptable for just a race.

Although I’d prefer that you make balanced race, and then have all the specilized stuff in a class or partial class and call it the paragon half-giant, your current model works though.

Also when you object to the re-skinned goliath are you more annoyed about the specific race (which was a poor choice), the reskin process itself (which seemd kind of lazy to me in this instance)?

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:Which is why in your case the class level trick works. By making half-giants into a class, or a partial class you’re allowed to specialize them more than would be acceptable for just a race.

Although I’d prefer that you make balanced race, and then have all the specilized stuff in a class or partial class and call it the paragon half-giant, your current model works though.

Also when you object to the re-skinned goliath are you more annoyed about the specific race (which was a poor choice), the reskin process itself (which seemd kind of lazy to me in this instance)?

[/quote]
More or less everyhting wiht the goliath reskin annoyed me. Half giants are suposed to be large IMHO as inn 12 feet tall and tough as guts. I suppose it would be like if they released a 5E Nerath setting and told you to reskin a Gnome for a Dragonborn, a halfling for a tiefling stuff like that. Reskinning an Ogre as a Half Giant or a Half Orc as a Mul/Golaith makes some sense I suppose golaith as HG no thaks. I was not a fan fo the golaith in 3.5 either. I can understand why they did it for 4E (balance, class and race rewrites would not play nice on DDI etc). Just if you are not going to bother getitng a setting right or are to lazy to rewrite stuff don’t bother IMHO.

Originally posted by rampant:

Ok makes sense I always thouht the goliath was specced wrong to be a good athasian half-giant myself, but mostly because it was focused on durability and athletics rather than power.

Now can we please deal with the class progression? I don’t like the ability score buffs being clustered up in levels 4-8 these guys are not fighters and that kind of versatility and potential feat access is probably not a good idea. I’d suggest less of those with maybe some limited ability buffs that can only be used for str or con, and not feats.

Originally posted by MechaPilot:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:

[quote]MechaPilot wrote:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:Basically, if the ECL system of 3e actually functioned properly (with LA insuring that monster PC always had crap hp, BAB and saves).

[/quote]
That’s the rub though, it never worked properly. Not only did it have the HP, BAB, and save issues you mentioned, but there was also the issue of situational abilities like winged flight causing creatures to be given much higher LAs than they really deserved.

[/quote]
That’s why we won’t ever use that. I’m advocating that if a monstrous race counts as level X, it gets the HP and saves of a something of level X. No LA.

[/quote]
I didn’t meant to imply that you were advocating for a return of LA or ECL; in retrospect, I probably could have phrased it a bit better to be more clear about that. I merely meant to point out that LA was often based on overhyped abilities. Before the forum reorganization, I had a post that detailed how winged flight is such a situational benefit for a PC that it really shouldn’t result in any level adjustment at all, and yet there was never a flying race (that I knew of) that didn’t have a level adjustment.

That said, what you are describing does sound like a modified version of LA. And, there’s nothing wrong with that provided that it actually works where the old one didn’t. At this point, I’d have to see it to believe it, but if they came up with an LA system that actually worked well I’d be okay with that.

I have to say that I think my preferred system would be an xp debt instead of a LA, or an xp reduction that rolls back as you reach certain levels. For example, imagine playing a succubus. I could see a succubus (depending on how many HPs and what prof bonus she gets) having a 50% xp reduction for the first three levels (just to take a shot in the dark). Or, I could see a succubus starting at -2,700 Xp instead of zero xp.

Originally posted by MechaPilot:

[quote]sleypy wrote:

[quote]MechaPilot wrote:

[quote]Cyber-Dave wrote:I just really, really, really don’t like race as class design. . .

[/quote]
I’m not a Dark Sun fan, so I don’t know if race as class is against the spirit of Dark Sun, but I agree with you about hating race as class design.

[/quote]
I would prefer to be able to swap level like archtypes do in pathfinder. I would rather have race as class level over what they did to goliaths in 4e (having them be 2 inch too short to be considered large.)

[/quote]
4e had problems with most large-sized creatures, though I feel that 3e also had some significant problems with large creatures as well (they were just different problems). I always felt a centaur would have worked in 4e, you would just have to keep track of which of the two squares you occupied was the one with your humanoid torso. Then you could just base bursts and such things on that single square instead of amplifying the power of your bursts by having it radiate from both sqaures.

Originally posted by Zardnaar:

[quote]rampant wrote:Ok makes sense I always thouht the goliath was specced wrong to be a good athasian half-giant myself, but mostly because it was focused on durability and athletics rather than power.

Now can we please deal with the class progression? I don’t like the ability score buffs being clustered up in levels 4-8 these guys are not fighters and that kind of versatility and potential feat access is probably not a good idea. I’d suggest less of those with maybe some limited ability buffs that can only be used for str or con, and not feats.

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I used the fighter as a abseline class thats why. Every 2E half gioant I saw was a fighter or gladiator which was really just a better fighter anyway. Open to suggestions on things like that though and several abilities are place holders for the moment.

Race as class is not really a requirement and that was one of the reasons I went from BECMI to AD&D. After playing BECMI agian recently though I can understand why they did it. I prefer race and class being seperate but I do not mind race=class as an option and it seems to have some advantages such as making a large critter fit in a normal sized party without nerfing the race into the ground or making it medium sized.

Originally posted by MechaPilot:

[quote]Zardnaar wrote:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:

[quote]MechaPilot wrote:

[quote]GhostStepper wrote:Basically, if the ECL system of 3e actually functioned properly (with LA insuring that monster PC always had crap hp, BAB and saves).

[/quote]
That’s the rub though, it never worked properly. Not only did it have the HP, BAB, and save issues you mentioned, but there was also the issue of situational abilities like winged flight causing creatures to be given much higher LAs than they really deserved.

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That’s why we won’t ever use that. I’m advocating that if a monstrous race counts as level X, it gets the HP and saves of a something of level X. No LA.

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And thats why if said race gets flight as a racial feature it might make sense to have that race be done as a class as stacking flight onto an existing class via racial feature is kind of hard to balance. I had flying Aasimar Paladins/fighter using great sword, power attack type buiilds in 3.5 as they had racial feats allowing flight. In the context of 3.5 that was not broken as such, it was power creep though.

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Winged flight is highly situational. I don’t think it even deserves to be considered beyond normal movement from a balance perspective. I had a big post about this before the reorganization, but here’s a small recap of a couple of the points:

Winged flight won’t do you much good in a dungeon or indoor environment that doesn’t have vaulted ceilings like a medieval cathedral.

Winged flight is a movement benefit out of doors, where it lets you move more quickly overland, but if you’re flying above the trees you may well not be able to see below the canopy of leaves. This means that you can’t keep an eye on your walking allies, and that enemies under that canopy will have cover/concealment from any ranged attacks you intend to make against them.

Even with 5e’s liberal default encumberance rules, 12 points of your Str score would be dedicated to carrying an average man (180 pounds is supposedly the average weight for a man), or 8 points would be dedicated to carrying an average woman (a supposed average of 120 pounds), and that’s without that person carrying any gear or counting your own gear.