This proposal argues for removing Literacy and Knowledge (Warcraft) as distinct skills in Athas.org’s Dark Sun 3.5e rules (DS3), replacing them with streamlined mechanics using existing skills.
Problems with Current Skills:
Literacy: Unnecessary, redundant, complex, and inconsistent with 3.5e core.
Knowledge (Warcraft): Redundant with existing Knowledge and Profession skills.
Proposed Solution:
Literacy:
Remove the Literacy skill entirely.
Default: Characters are illiterate unless their background clearly indicates otherwise.
Decipher Script is Key: Use Decipher Script for all reading checks.
How Decipher Script Works:
Treat all writing as potentially unfamiliar.
One Rank = Basic Literacy (One Language): A single rank in Decipher Script allows a character to read and write one language they already know how to speak.
Additional Ranks: Required for:
Reading/writing additional known languages (one language per rank).
Deciphering unfamiliar scripts, codes, damaged texts, or complex texts.
Knowledge Skills: Use relevant Knowledge skills for understanding content and context.
Roleplaying: Emphasize the rarity and social implications of literacy.
Speak Language: Unchanged.
Knowledge (Warcraft):
Remove Knowledge (Warcraft) as a distinct skill.
Create a “Warcraft” pseudo-skill , calculated as: Highest of [Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Profession (soldier/mercenary)] + Int modifier.*
Trained Only: Requires ranks in at least one of the relevant skills.
Precedent: This follows the existing Secular Authority model.
Synergy Bonuses: Apply standard 3.5e synergy rules. Having 5 or more ranks in any of the three relevant skills provides a +2 synergy bonus to Warcraft checks. This bonus stacks, so having 5+ ranks in two of the skills would provide a +4 bonus, and 5+ ranks in all three would provide a +6 bonus.
Benefits:
Simplifies the skill system.
Eliminates redundancy.
Aligns with 3.5e core.
Emphasizes roleplaying.
Provides a balanced way to represent Warcraft expertise.
Changing the basic mechanics of 3.5e was the original sin of DS3.
Core Function: You can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language, a message written in an incomplete or archaic form, or a code. You can also learn to read and write a language you already speak.
Check:
Basic Literacy (One Language): Spending one skill rank in Decipher Script grants basic literacy in one language the character already knows how to speak. This allows the character to read and write simple messages and common texts in that language. The DC for reading or writing such texts is implicitly included in having the rank; no roll is typically required unless the text is damaged, obscured, or otherwise unusually difficult (see below).
Additional Languages: Each additional rank spent in Decipher Script can grant basic literacy in another language the character already knows how to speak (one language per rank).
Unfamiliar Scripts, Codes, Damaged Texts: The base DC is 20 for the simplest messages, 25 for standard texts, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, very old writing, or deliberately obscured texts (codes, ciphers, etc.).
Understanding Content: Success on a Decipher Script check for unfamiliar or complex texts means you understand the general content of a piece of writing about one page long (or the equivalent). For literate characters, this check also represents understanding nuances, authorial intent, and deeper meaning beyond the literal words. The relevant Knowledge skill (see below) may also be required for full comprehension.
Failure: If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about the text. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.) Both the Decipher Script check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly.
Relevant Knowledge Skill Check Deciphering the script only grants the meaning of the text. To understand it, a secondary check may need to be rolled. For example, you decipher a scroll written in an archaic script, success! But what does it mean? Roll knowledge Arcana as the subject is Arcane Magic.
Action:
Basic Reading/Writing (Literate Characters): Generally, no action is required for literate characters to read or write simple texts in a language they are literate in, unless the text is unusually difficult. Writing longer or more complex texts may take time, as determined by the DM.
Deciphering: Deciphering the equivalent of a single page of script takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions).
Try Again:
Basic Reading/Writing: Generally, no, unless the circumstances change (e.g., you get better lighting, find a magnifying glass, etc.).
Deciphering: No.
Special:
A character with the Diligent feat gets a +2 bonus on Decipher Script checks.
Synergy:
If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls.
Untrained The character cannot read.
Warcraft (Pseudo-Skill)
Core Function: This pseudo-skill represents a character’s overall knowledge and practical experience in organized warfare. It encompasses strategic thinking, tactical deployment, logistics, leadership, and understanding of military history and traditions.
Calculation: Warcraft is calculated as follows:
Base: The highest skill rank among the following:
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (nobility and royalty)
Profession (soldier/mercenary)
Modifier: Add your Intelligence modifier.
Trained Only: You must have at least one rank in any of the three skills listed above (Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Profession (soldier/mercenary)) to use the Warcraft pseudo-skill.
Check:
Answering Questions: Answering a warfare-related question has a DC of:
10 (for really easy questions, such as identifying troop types or formations, assessing logistics and supplies, or establishing camps and simple patrols).
15 (for basic questions, such as identifying favorable or unfavorable terrain, deploying simple offensive or defensive troop formations, or establishing scouting parties).
20 to 30 (for really tough questions, such identifying or establishing ambushes, deploying complex troop formations, or coordinating several levels of interlocking strategy).
Identifying Tactics, Armies, and Battle Formations: The DC generally equals 10 + the army’s Encounter Level. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
Coordinate Allies: You can use Warcraft to coordinate allies. Each creature to be affected must be able to see and hear you, and able to pay attention to you. Make a Warcraft check with a DC equal to 15 + the number of allies affected. If the check succeeds, all affected allies gain a competence bonus on attack rolls or a dodge bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier. You choose which of the two benefits to impart and must impart the same benefit to all affected allies. The benefits last for 1 round. You cannot use this ability on yourself. Coordinating allies does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Action:
Answering Questions: No action – you simply know the answer or you don’t.
Coordinate Allies: Full-round action.
Try Again:
Answering Questions: Generally, no, unless you gain new information.
Coordinate Allies: Yes, but only once per round. Each retry carries the same chance of failure.
Synergy:
Having 5 or more ranks in any of Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Profession (soldier/mercenary) provides a +2 synergy bonus to Warcraft checks. This bonus stacks, so having 5+ ranks in two of the skills would provide a +4 bonus, and 5+ ranks in all three would provide a +6 bonus.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Warcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks related to dealing with troops.
Special:
If you have the Field Officer feat (see page 72), you get a +2 bonus on Warcraft checks.
Um, Literacy does exist in core 3.5. It costs 2 skill points to obtain understanding of the written forms of all languages that one can speak.
It does not show up in the skills section, but rather as part of the Barbarian class skill of Illiteracy. Given that 3rd edition magically grants universal literacy to all classes, even commoners, only Barbarians needed to spend the skill points for it… unless they multiclassed.
I feel the simplest fix would be to simply rule that learning spoken versions of a language costs one skill point and written likewise one skill point, thus conforming to the Speak Language skill.
Regarding Know:Warcraft… it used to be a class feature of fighters in previous editions. Why not just return it to that rather than make a math calculation?
…or…
Knowledge War was a 3.0 skill found in Sword and Fist. Technically it is still a valid skill in 3.5 according to the update rules since there is no replacement and anything not specifically replaced or called out as removed is still valid. It was likely the template for the DS version?
I feel the simplest solution is to leave it at that, maybe grant certain fighting classes virtual ranks or bonus ranks in that skill as a class feature, since they usually have low skill points.
I had considered that. However, they suddenly gain knowledge of all written forms of languages that they can speak.
Doesn’t it make sense that someone who can read a language, or multiple languages, has at least a slim change of deciphering an unfamiliar script? That’s how it works in the real world. Otherwise these skill points just get sunk into something that is never used elsewhere.
The actual update rules leave legacy stuff from 3.0 in the hands of the DM. On various forums, people will say “if it was not updated for 3.5e, it is valid for use”. That’s actually not the case.
Knowledge of war falls under the two knowledge skills and one profession skill that I specified above.
That’s a possibility, but I suspect that the designers at Athas.org wanted players to invest in this ability, rather than every character being equally as skilled in Warcraft as another.
Some Earth languages are related to each other, which is why a limited form of cross deciphering is possible. But that only works within the same family.
D&D languages are not related, with the possible argument of those that share a written alphabet.
However even that does not mean they are actually compatible. No amount of Egyptian will enable you to decipher Sumerian or Japanese or English. And Chinese has 20+ dialects that cannot understand each other speaking at all, despite all using the same alphabet. (I am given to understand that they can understand written Chinese universally.)
Ultimately, I think the illiteracy is a thematic element of the setting. Dealing with it mechanically should be kept simplistic in my opinion. Leave the rest to story. Hence my suggestion, as you could see I do not agree with how 3rd handled it either.
I believe it is the opposite. The update book specifically states:
“The purpose of this booklet is not to provide a comprehensive list of everything that has changed with the 3.5 revision. The changes are too large in number and varied in scope to be able to provide an all-inclusive inventory. Instead, what we want to do is to show you a broad picture of what has changed and to provide you with support for updating our most popular product. Do you need to make these changes? No.This booklet is for players and Dungeon Masters who value rules precision and need to know what’s changed so that they can continue to enjoy their 3rd Edition products.”
It is about continuing to enjoy your existing 3rd edition products, and clearly indicates one doesn’t have to make any (3.5) changes. Doesn’t really talk at all about handling legacy stuff.
3.5 is an update, a revision to 3.0, it is not a new game nor a total replacement. Thus whatever isn’t revised is still in force. It’s all 3rd edition. Which is partly why I usually write it 3.x.
What do you think of the following quote from the 3.5 PHB (First Printing, July 2003), page 4, inset?
If you used the prior version of this book, rest assured that this revision is a testament to our dedication to continuous product improvement. We’ve updated errata, clarified rules, and made the game even better than it was.
But also rest assured that this is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Maybe this is why over time the thought process developed that non-updated/replaced 3.0 was equally valid and authoritative with 3.5?
There are a number of statements like this, similar to this, or along these lines. There is a quote floating around the various 3.5e forums which says that you can use all the 3.0 rules if they have not been updated to 3.5e. That particular quote is fake.
All of these things really require DM adjudication, but the best way to handle it is to treat 3.5e as its own edition, especially with the release of the Rules Compendium 3.5, which overhauled/clarified a lot of the rules, and tried to fix the polymorph/shapechange spells.
Ultimately, I don’t care how it’s handled, but if the ADO team wants skill points sunk into it the ability to read and strategize warfare, I would prefer that they not create two non-canon 3.5e skills for that and sidestep it. We should be striving for statblocks that are compatible with the rest of the 3.5e system.
Well, the fact of the matter is that backwards compatibility between 3.0 and 3.5 was intended, and it was specifically called out as NOT A NEW EDITION. Thus I feel your view is factually incorrect.
Regardless, I know many people that ignore 3.0 in favor of 3.5, and that’s fine. I’ve played that way myself a lot before I shifted to my current d20+3rd viewpoint.
In any case, my originally intended point was that since we already have a model in the 3.0 space for knowledge War, so why not use it? Also the written language thing is an easy fix if a single skill point.