Adventures are great, but setting material we could mine to inspire our own adventures would probably do the most good, in the long run.
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If said setting material was in previously unexplored regions (ie: not something that has been covered in any detail, or at all in any previously published materials), and said materials were system agnostic, I could agree with that too.
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When we’ve asked Wizards anything about the license we literally get no response. I know they’re getting them, but they’re not responding. That’s really good. It means they don’t really care what we do. If people want to continue with 3e stuff, go for it!
Personally I’ve been creating 5e content and been keeping it under my hat in hopes that Wizards released Dark Sun at some point to the DMsGuild. However, rather than wait for them, I’m going to start releasing it as homebrew playtest articles on the site. Then should it ever come to the DMsGuild I’ll release them there.
As for the site, if you have articles you’d like to post, feel free to email me at Raddu@athas.org and we’ll get them posted. I recently scoured a bunch of old DS websites and am going to repost some of that content to keep it from disappearing or having to be found on archive.org
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Sweet! With that motivation, maybe I’ll finally finish that adaptation/conversion guide for Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.
You would have to own the original 1st edition manual to use it at all, but I’ve already made plenty of life-shaping stuff for it on one of my posts, and I would love to see it on the products page.
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Finally finished that Athas project I was working on!! Yay! Turned it into Flip, as he was the one who gave it to me in the first place. Hope I did an acceptable job of it. ^^
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Oh? And what might it be?
I found a lot of proofreading errors in one of the dark sun books and when I mentioned it to Flip, was given the opportunity to edit and proofread it. I’m not sure how much I can say prior to my edits being accepted or rejected. I don’t think it would make a difference either way, but I’d prefer to get an okay from Flip before I go into details, just in case. If it is accepted, then we should see one of the downloadable books get an update to a new version.
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Any news on this? I’m curious.
I have not heard back from Flip on this. I’m still waiting on him.
Sent him a PM in addition to my previous email. ^^
Does this mean that Dark Sun Online could be resurrected if it was done with 3rd Ed. rules?
Is this license still effective?
It also implies that 2nd Ed. is not available for development?
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The charter only covers the production of 3.x rpg material here on this site. Electronic games are not covered by the original charter, to the best of my knowledge.
WotC has not come forth with any new information regarding the charter of any of the official websites. So it’s a case of everyone assumes it’s still in effect as WotC hasn’t said anything to the contrary yet.
For those who are interested, and given that this is the thread about the Charter, here is the content of the Agreement (Please take note of Item 5, that’s the one I’m always going on about):
Official Homepage Requirements
Wizards of the Coast values its intellectual property a great deal, and it also values its customers who make purchase decisions based on their love of the IP. As sales dwindle on certain worlds that we create, we make the decision to no longer produce printed materials for these worlds. As Wizards of the Coast desires to keep previous customers happy with the investment they have made with our products, we allow select websites to take over the duties of providing new materials for retired intellectual properties.
In order to be considered an official website, the site must:
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Portray the intellectual property in a manner consistent with its positioning. This information can be found in the Brand Positioning documents. In lieu of these documents, work with the Brand Manager of D&D Worlds on an approved look.
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Retain the iconic heroes, locations, magical items, and artifacts. Official sites are not allowed to kill off major PCs, destroy well-known artifacts, and similar activities.
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Official sites must have links back to the Wizards of the Coast website that tie to:
- Message Boards
- Chat Rooms
- Mailing Lists
- Online Catalog
- Online Store
- Campaign Worlds
- Dragon Magazine
- Dungeon Adventures
- Player Registry
- Books
Official sites also must:
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…not create their own community sections that duplicate those services and features offered by the Wizards of the Coast website.
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Provide new content for fans within the guidelines in sections A and B. While there is a great deal of latitude granted in this regard, official websites should remain in close contact with the Brand Manager of D&D Worlds (oracle@wizards.com).
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Keep Wizards of the Coast related materials separate from other non-game sections of the website. This means we don’t want to see other business ventures mixed in with our intellectual property, such as pornographic offerings, get-rich-quick schemes, etc.
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Conduct its activities in a professional and businesslike manner. This means that all actions on the part of visitors to the website should conform to generally accepted business standards. Sites should never sell visitor information records to other firms for the purpose of marketing, for instance.
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Refer players to the Other Worlds section of the Wizards of the Coast page instead of their own URL. While many fans will bookmark your own page anyway, it’s important that fans receive the other information presented at the Other Worlds section.
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Make the material available for free. You’re not allowed to charge for access to official products.
We encourage fan sites to begin making updates to their content to bring it in-line with 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons as soon as possible. We will begin phasing out web pages that do not offer 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons content soon after the launch of the new game system in August 2000.
In exchange for providing all of the official new material for an intellectual property, Wizards of the Coast agrees to:
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Provide prizes and other support materials at a level established by the D&D Worlds Brand Manager.
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Establish a direct link from the Wizards of the Coast web page to the official fan site.
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Have only a single source for all official content, that being your site. Other sites that wish to be listed as part of the IP will be directed to the official website.
This agreement will change as business necessities force us to alter the manner in which we do business. Should the intellectual property currently being supported by the official website be brought back into print, the official status of the web site will be removed and Wizards of the Coast will begin creating new content to support the relaunch of the game (or work with the current official site to migrate content over). (Italics added)
Content created on the official website is considered to be derivative work (as it is based on the intellectual property owned by Wizards of the Coast). This means that fan-created add-ons (such as new net books, adventures, etc.) are jointly owned by both Wizards of the Coast and the creator; neither can do anything outside the official website without the permission of the other.
Good Gaming!
Jim Butler, Brand Manager
D&D Worlds
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
This Concludes the official Agreement.
Note that depending on how the italicized section just above is interpreted, the publishing of the 4th ed version of Dark Sun could be interpreted as having already ended Athas’ charter, since it was “brought back into print,” even if it wasn’t a 3.x product. As the owner of the website works for WotC (last I heard) I imagine that it wouldn’t be hard to obtain permission, unless it was considered a conflict of interest.
Since no official statement clarifying whether this is or is not the case, we arrive at our current circumstances.
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A lot to unpack there. I can’t see a conflict of interest as there is no financial harm, we keep to the canon, there’s no competition, and the reach of the brand is only increased by this website. I appreciate your posting that full charter. I will review it intently.
It’s long been my dream to piece back together DSO. I will be careful how I tread on this topic, no need to kick a hornet’s nest.
We’re eight years since the last DSun publication out of WotC… 4e rerelease didn’t sell well?
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Nijineko - good find. All I can say is that its out of print now lol.
The only conflict of interest I was speaking of was regarding the owner of the site specifically. With regards to an electronic game, that’s more of a licensing issue and rights issue. Who currently owns the rights to produce a product derivative game? Either WotC or some game company, depending on if the rights reverted or not once the work was done.
For example, Steve Jackson Games has long been in a fix with regards to the Car Wars based computer game Autoduel. As was common back in the day, the rights for producing electronic games was signed over to Origin System, and eventually wound up in the hands of EA when they purchased all the IP owned by Origin. As such, SJG cannot produce an MMO, or any kind of electronic game for that matter, based on the Car Wars property. They’ve been trying to negotiate the return of those rights for decades.
Any such effort would have to enter negotiations or at least discussions with WotC lawyers before proceeding, lest any fan work get shut down mid-stream for infringement on the right to produce the game, not use of IP, per se.
Having said all of that, I’d be very interested in a 3.x based Dark Sun game that really brought psionics to life.
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Thank you for your continued input. Looks like SSI became part of Ubisoft many years ago. I will examine this issue carefully. I will start with a contact to Ubisoft.
No problems! I’d also reach out to WotC’s lawyers or similar, chances are they know who has which rights currently. After all, the SJG thing happened decades ago, and they were a small company who was busy recovering from being raided by the Secret Service. ^^ Times change. Especially since Hasbro owns WotC, very little chance of any IP “getting lost”, as it were.
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Wow, I wish I would have found these forums about 20 years ago. I browse Athas.org all the time, but never went to the arena. I’d love to help in any way I can, but it seems my thoughts on a lot of how Psionics should work, and especially on how Psionics and Magic should interact, puts me in the minority.
Psionics never get the amount of attention they are due because they have a bad reputation. Period. It dates back to people going cross-eyed in the first Dark Sun boxed set when reading the explanation of MTHAC0, and Wizard players huffing and puffing because Psionicists worked off of a point system that allowed them to empower on the fly and “not memorize all of their spells at the beginning of the day”. The bad rap has been that they’re complicated and overpowered ever since, and likely is what made Dark Sun seem less attractive to publishers/developers/players - It was reliant on this “bad experiment”.
In 3.5 rules set, we’re in an era of spontaneous casting, metamagic, and other things that didn’t exist when this reputation formed, but Psionics superficially still look the same to the uninitiated except metapsionic feats, which do nothing to tamp down the reputation of being “silly and OP” that persists. That MTHAC0 is gone removes some of the intimidation factor, but also removes one of the neat features that set Psionics apart from magic - people have an effective AC to protect them. Psionic powers look like they are more-or-less balanced against magic, have power points that a lot of people think exist just to pump up psionic powers unfairly, and often resolve like magic. Add in a lot of the easier to find material gives the impression psionic items are intended for psionic characters, and no wonder there is a bias. No one thinks a Flaming Burst Longsword is for a Wizard, because it obviously isn’t.
If you want more Psionics, you have to make them more appealing, accessible, and set them further apart from magic. Barbarian class abilities are what I like to call “pseudo-magic”… They’re obviously magical, but they’re set so far apart and presented in such a way that people don’t think about Rage as being Bull’s Strength and Bear’s Endurance, but with limitations on actions that can be taken, a short duration, and a hangover. I’d consider bringing back a kind of mental AC, with WIS or INT standing in for DEX (complete with flat-footed state if charmed, sleeping, etc) and a universal skill for all non-psionic classes that can be purchased at cross-class rates to further improve the mental AC, and as a class skill for Psionic classes. Then, the idea of using points to empower manifestations will be more appealing, and the cost/benefit ratio can be tweaked so the Psionicist gets more reliable bang for their power point buck. Then, increase the number of points and eliminate metapsionics or tweak the presentation… Barbarians don’t get “Metarage” feats. If you want more Psionics and less magic, stop making them use the same terminology. Finally, create and dump out an equipment list of psionically powered and crafted items obviously not intended for psionics users, and make them do things magical enchantments don’t. How about an “Inertial Sword” that gives a +2 AC enhancement bonus if used in the main hand, increased to +4 if held in the off hand if the character can dual wield, and stops the character from being counted as flanked unless surrounded by 3+ enemies? You just got the attention of every frustrated DW Fighter in the building, and maybe a few Rogues.
Finally, I saw a lot of mention of the philosophical debate on if Psionics are or are not Magic… and that is kind of a waste of time in my opinion. They’re not. It is clearly said that The Way comes from within and then without, and resolving it as “B Team Magic” is a lazy development solution. Dark Sun is the setting of Psionics, and basing what goes on here on what other settings have said is like Dragonlance basing how Kender act on the Halflings from Forgotten Realms post the year 2000 or so. That being said, if magic and psionics have coexisted for thousands of years, it is safe to assume that both disciplines would have figured out ways to sniff out the presence of the other. Allowing Detect Magic, the spell, to become Detect _____ and the caster deciding if it is “Detect Magic” or “Detect Psionics” at the time of casting is no big deal. Just make it so the psionic items get a DC or save to go undetected. The opposite would be true for the psionic Detect Psionics, and it would be magic that gets a “save” to go undetected if it is used as Detect Magic, etc.
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Interesting thoughts!
Personally I’ve always wanted to explore the development of psionics as a survival mechanism in reaction to the post apocalyptic wasteland that humanoids have made of Athas… a rise of the psi-mutant animals versus a dwindling humanoid remnants concept.
Also, expanding magic is a stupid choice in a setting where magic is feared because of the destruction, because of defilers, and because of evil overlords. Magic should be lost tech, dangerous, unpredictable, and deadly, regardless of use or intent. All magic should backfire, even when successful. Casting magic, for any reason, even with the purest of motives, should harm the caster and defile them. Magic is evil in the setting and source books should treat it as such.
Psionics should be dominant, and the normal way of life.
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