For an upcoming campaign I’ll be running, I put together an entire price list for everything on Athas. As sources for putting these prices together, I used all of the 4e books, the d20 SRD, and some older 2e Dark Sun material, such as the expanded campaign setting book, and the Dune Trader book.
Part of my goal with putting this material together was to accentuate the rarity of metal on Athas. To this end, I broke down the pricing of weapons and armor so as to reflect the higher cost of metal items. I have also included a full price guide to all trade goods, including their supply and demand in the various city states. This will be useful for players who wish to engage in any dune trading.
It is suggested that you use this material in a “low-loot”, fixed-enhancement campaign. If you instead use the traditional treasure parcel system, after only a few levels, your players will have so much wealth that the price of almost everything but magic items won’t have much meaning to them.
I have broken everything down into 3 PDF files. They are set up to be printed on 8.5" x 11" paper in landscape format.
+[URL=https://www.dropbox.com/s/14cie2cuzc4ggdo/Dark_Sun_Price_Guide_-_Weapons.pdf?dl=0]Dark Sun Price Guide - Weapons[/URL]
+[URL=https://www.dropbox.com/s/lv1dkrqfrcjwszf/Dark%20Sun%20Price%20Guide%20-%20Armor%20-%20Gear%20-%20Food%20-%20Lodging.pdf?dl=0]Dark Sun Price Guide - Armor, Gear, Food, and Lodging[/URL]
+[URL=https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3qjcl41saxlkzl/Dark%20Sun%20Price%20Guide%20-%20Trade%20Goods%20-%20Mounts%20-%20Vehicles%20-%20Services.pdf?dl=0]Dark Sun Price Guide - Trade Goods, Mounts, Vehicles, and Services[/URL]
The following is a FAQ to explain some of things in these price guides…
GENERAL
Q: Why is everything priced in gold pieces? Isn’t metal rare on Athas?
A: Prices are still listed in gp, however this is an abstraction so that you can compare prices to other 4e material and make use of pre-made adventures without having to do a math conversion each time. You should explain to your players that their characters aren’t actually using gold pieces, but are instead using ceramic pieces that on Athas hold the same value as a gp would in another world.
Q: What if I want to put gold in as a treasure?
A: The value of gold, silver, and copper by pound on Athas is listed in the Trade Goods table.
WEAPONS
Q. What do the “source” abbreviations mean for each weapon?
A. PHB = Player’s Handbook, DSCS = Dark Sun Campaign Setting, AV = Adventurer’s Vault, EPG = Eberron Player’s Guide, Dragon # = Dragon Issue Number
Q: Why did you include Eberron weapons?
A: There is no reason why the Eberron weapons need to be specific to only Eberron. Their design is simple enough that similar weapons could have been developed on other worlds. Eberron specific names have been changed, however. For example, the Talenta Sharrash has been renamed as simply Sharrash. By the same token, the Talenta Boomerang and the Xen’drik Boomerang have been renamed Light Boomerang and Heavy Boomerang respectively.
Q: Why are not all weapons available in a non-metal form?
A: Part of my goal was to place a focus on the lack of metal in Athas. By restricting which type of weapons can be found in a non-metal form, it makes metal weapons more significant to the players.
Q: How did you decide which weapons cannot be found in a non-metal form?
A: If a weapon is traditionally made almost entirely of metal, and if its effectiveness relies significantly on having a long, sharp edge, then I generally chose to only make it available as a metal weapon. This means that many of the heavy blades and more advanced axes are only available in metal.
Q: What is a Macuahuitl? It doesn’t have a source listed.
A: This is a new weapon that I have added. The Macuahuitl was an Aztec wooden sword with obsidian blades along the edges. According to Spanish conquistador reports, a Macuahuitl was able to sever a horse’s head in only a few swings. I have added this weapon so as to provide a non-metal 1-handed heavy blade. (Note: On page 50 of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting, the female gladiator pictured is wielding a Macuahuitl in her left hand.)
Q: What is a Dachi Club? It doesn’t have a source listed.
A: The Dachi Club is a weapon from 2e Dark Sun that for some reason wasn’t included in the 4e version. I have added it here for purists.
Q: Why does the Heavy Boomerang/Xen’drik Boomerang have High Crit as a property? It doesn’t have that in the Eberron Player’s Guide.
A: The Dark Sun Campaign Guide introduced a new throwable, returning weapon called the Chatkcha. This weapon has identical stats to the Xen’drik Boomerang, except that it is Military instead of Superior, and it weighs less. Thus the Chatkcha makes the Xen’drik Boomerang completely obsolete. I gave the Heavy Boomerang/Xen’drik Boomerang the High Crit property so as to give it some measure of distinction from the Chatkcha.
Q: How did you determine the price of metal weapons?
A: I broke all the weapons down into three categories based on what percentage of a weapon would be made of metal. For metal weapons that only have a small amount of metal in their overall composition, their price is 10x that on their non-metal counterpart. For metal weapons that have a moderate amount of metal in their overall composition, their price is 50x that on their non-metal counterpart. And for metal weapons that have a very large amount of metal in their overall composition, their price is 100x that on their non-metal counterpart.
Q: Why do a few metal weapons have different stats than their non-metal counterpart?
A: Throughout all of 4e there are a small number of weapons that traditionally would not be made of metal, and at the same time, if these weapons were to be made of metal, virtually the entire weapon would have to be converted to metal. In these situations, I assumed that the standard 4e stats would be for a non-metal version of the weapon, and that a transformation of such a weapon from fully non-metal to fully metal should be reflected in the stats. The weapons effected by this decision are: Net, Bola, Chatkcha, the Boomerangs, and the Crossbows. The difference in stats for the metal version is typically a slight increase in damage and a slightly longer range.
Q: What should the price be if my players want to buy a metal magic weapon?
A: In the case of magic weapons, the cost of the weapon is normally included in the enhancement cost, however for metal weapons, this should not be the case. For a metal magic weapon, the player should pay the price of both the metal weapon and the enhancement.
ARMOR
Q: Why do you have prices listed for masterwork armor, and how did you determine these prices?
A: In a low loot, fixed-enhancement game, a DM may decide to give players non-magical masterwork armor. The price I have listed is the same as if the player purchased a straight Magic suit of that specific masterwork armor with that armor’s minimum allowed enhancement. This should provide a fair, balanced price for low loot, fixed-enhancement games.
Q: Why are the heavy armors broken up into non-metal and metal types?
A: Like with weapons, I have made an effort to accentuate the difference between non-metal and metal items. In my opinion, on Athas, a suit of full metal plate should be something that really stands out. To this end, I have called non-metal chainmail armor “bonemail”, I have called non-metal scale armor “beastscale”, and I have called non-metal plate armor “chitin shell”. I have also given these non-metal armors slightly different stats than their metal versions so as to differentiate them.
Q: How did you come up with the names for the various non-metal masterwork bonemail, beastscale, and chitin shell armors?
A: The Dark Sun Campaign Guide provided a list of suggested names, however I felt some of their names were unfocused. For bonemail armors, I chose a number of creatures which would conceivably have bones. My assumption for bonemail is that a large bone, such as a femur would be cut into rings and the rings would be fitted together to make mail. For beastscale, I chose a number of reptilian creatures, with the assumption that the scales would be stitched together to make the armor. For chitin shell, I chose a number of insect-like creatures, with the assumptions that whole pieces of the creature’s exoskeleton would serve as the armor’s structure. In all cases, I chose creatures of high level to use as the names for the various masterwork armors.
Q: What’s up with the prices for the metal masterwork armor?
A: Like with metal magic weapons, the cost of the metal armor must be payed in addition to the normal enhancement cost.
Q: Why do you have Broy priced at 2 sp per gallon? In the Dark Sun Campaign Guide its only 2 cp.
A: I felt the price given in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide just didn’t make sense. Clearly Broy is supposed to be the Athasian replacement for Ale, however in all the other 4e settings, Ale is 2 sp per gallon. I see no reason why Athas’s alcoholic beverage of choice should cost 1/10th the price of the typical alcohol in other worlds. (Note: True Ale on Athas costs 3 sp due to the rarity of water.)
Q: Why do you list the Standard Adventurer’s Kit as only costing 10 gp? Shouldn’t it cost 15 gp?
A: The Standard Adventurer’s Kit on Athas does not contain trail rations, thus the reduction in price. Instead you should use Survival Days for tracking a character’s food and water needs.
TRADE GOODS
Q: Where did you get all the trade good information from?
A: Much of this is taken from the 2e Dune Trader book, however the prices have been converted to a scale that is inline with typical 4e prices. The sparse amount of information given about exports in the 4e Dark Sun Campaign Guide has also been integrated into this table.
Q: What does “Supply” and “Demand” indicated in this table?
A: If a trade good is listed as “Supply” for a specific city, then it means that the value of that good in that city is typically 10%-25% below the base cost. If a trade good is listed as “Demand” for a specific city, then it means that the value of that good in that city is typically 10%-25% above the base cost. If a trade goods is listed with “-”, it means that trade in that particular good is balanced, and the value is neither higher nor lower than the base cost.
Q: Does that mean players can sell trade goods at full price (adjusting for supply and demand) and not the normal 20% like they do with most other items?
A: Yes, trade goods can be sold at full price just like gems and ritual components. However, this is made under the assumption that the players are keeping the trade goods in like-new condition. Trade goods that aren’t properly cared for, or that take damage during transport might not retain their value.
Originally posted by positronica:
For anyone that might be interested, here are the source files for the three PDFs above, so that you can edit them yourself. The three mains documents are saved in .odt format, for use with Open Office. You can probably open them with other word processors as well. There’s also a folder in the zip containing the fonts you’ll need to install.
x[URL=http://www.filedropper.com/darksunpriceguide-sourcefiles]Dark Sun Price Guide - Source Files[/URL]
I really like the armor table… was that your idea to change the defense bonus for metal vs nonmetal with the heavy armors? I have been searching for a rule I like on heavy armors… do you have specific penalties for walking around in metal/heavy armor?
The campaign guide suggests that metal weapons may have a minimum enhancement bonus, and states that armor (if I recall correctly) is +2. (An online article stated +3 for weapons, but that is not in the book). Did you just not like that rule? (I rather like the idea of it being more flexible).
I would really love it if you could share the original files. I would like to use these but make some minor changes (add Bard’s Friend, remove Sunrod, etc.).
Originally posted by positronica:
[quote]Positronica, this rocks!
I really like the armor table… was that your idea to change the defense bonus for metal vs nonmetal with the heavy armors? I have been searching for a rule I like on heavy armors… do you have specific penalties for walking around in metal/heavy armor?
[/quote]
Yes, the changes to the stats for non-metal heavy armor are my own design. I tried to come up with stats that differentiated them from metal armor, but didn’t outright gimp them. For bonemail (non-metal chainmail) and beastscale (non-metal scale), my decision was to lower the defensive value slightly, but to in turn get rid of the speed penalty. Thus players who want the highest AC can seek out metal armor, whereas players who are ok with a slightly lower AC can stick to non-metal armor and gain a little bit better mobility in the process. For chitin shell (non-metal plate), I gave some of the masterwork versions a bonus to endurance, thus offsetting the armor check penalty when it comes to endurance. (I did the same with bonemail, too.) This would give a player a slightly better ability to wear non-metal armor in hot, and strenuous situations where endurance checks would be required.
Overall, for the numbers I came up with, I think bonemail and beastscale are fairly balanced, and I’m sure that there’s some builds were players even if given the option to aquire metal chainmail or scale might choose to still stay with the non-metal versions. When it comes to chitin shell vs. plate, though, I’m not sure if that would be the case. The chitin shell armor isn’t junk, but the few things it does have in its favor might not make up for where it trails behind metal plate. That being said, the difference in price is equal to a 10th level item, and for my campaign in particular, I want to make sure that a full suit of metal plate armor is truely an awesome piece of equipment that would get a lot of attention.
As for wearing metal armor in heat, I would probably give metal armor an additional endurance penalty when rolling against effects caused by head; probably somewhere from -2 to -5.
Well, I don’t really see any reason why enhancement bonuses need to be used as an artificial limiter for metal weapons and armor, especially if you’re running a low-loot game where magic items are rather rare already. Keep in mind, that in the world of Dark Sun, players can’t just buy metal items just because they have money. They’re not usually available in open markets, and even when they do find metal items for sale, the selection of what’s available at that particular shop is likely rather limited. As far as armor is concerned, I think the cost I gave for metal armor will keep it rare enough. For example, a suit of metal plate armor, at 5000 gp, is the same cost as a level 10 magic item. (A suit of +2 magic armor would normally only cost 1800 gp.) Thus I think price alone is enough to keep magic armor rare, and no other restrictions are necessary. As for metal weapons, there’s a greater range of prices than with armor, but in the end, I think most of the metal weapons that your average player is going to seek out as a primary weapon are priced high enough to keep rare, especially when it comes to bronze and steel weapons, and not just iron.
I don’t know if I’ll be able to get to it today, but I’ll post the source files online sometime soon. Everything was done in Open Office, so it should be easy for anyone to edit. Both of the fonts I used are also available for free as well.
I only have one question-
When Survival Days (sufficient food and water to survive for a day) are 5g, how did you get the price of a gallon of water to be 1sp? Especially when compared with the relatively low cost of 3 Common Meals (6sp total)?
I might adjudicate water to be more expensive, personally.
Other than that, this is a HUGE help! Thanks!
Originally posted by positronica:
I debated putting water at 1 gp per gallon, but frankly I couldn’t find a way to make a lot of other things work at that price. Also, in 2e, water was WAY, WAY cheaper than 1 gp per gallon. In 2e Dark Sun, a tun of water (250 gallons) was only 1 sp. (Note: 2e used a different price scale. You need to multiply 2e Dark Sun priced by about 100 to get an equivilent 4e price. This is because 2e Dark Sun used the copper piece as the primary coin instead of the gold piece like 4e does.) Anyways, if we do a proper conversion to a 4e price, 250 gallons of water would cost 10 gp. Or broken down futher, 1 gallon would cost 4 cp. I debated putting it at that price, but I figured it would be easier to just round things up to 1 sp per gallon.
I realize that that doesn’t fit very well with the price of a Survival Day, however putting water at 1 gp per gallon just throws the whole rest of the economy out of wack. If water costs 1 gp per gallon, you create a situation where even the poorest citizens of Athas must have access to a decent amount of money to be able to survive… espeically anyone who has animals that they also have to provide for. With water at 1 gp per gallon, you end up with an economy where a lowly peon can change his entire fortune and status in life just by finding or losing a few days worth of water. Water on Athas should be important, but not that important. Water at 1 gp per gallon would also mess up the prices of everything else that depends on water, such as ale, beer, cider, fruits, vegetables, etc. (Even at 1 sp per gallon I think an argument can be made that water is still priced a tad too high.)
Anyways, I think as far as the players are concerned 1 sp per gallon should work. When it comes to the cost of Survival Days, just hand wave the high cost away as the additional expense of preparing everything for transport and use. Also, keep in mind that Survival Days are a luxury and not a necessity. Based on their cost, I think we can assume that the average NPC caravan doesn’t make use of them. A heroic tier caravan guard has one healing surge, plus 4 healing surges worth of hit points. In theory, he could escort a caravan in the wild for 5 days before dropping dead. (Assuming a lack of survival days is the only hardship he runs into.) Throw in scattered oasisses, and the a lucky forage check here and there, and his range gets even farther.
Also, you mentioned the cost of meals, and I should point out that I assumed that a meal only includes food, and does not include water or drink. Also, the price guide for meals also includes the cost of having someone prepare it for you. (Think of the cost of eating at a restaurant vs. cooking at home.) Also, the food you’d get with a meal would be perishable. For non-perishable food you’d have to get salted meats (which I priced the same as 4e trail rations). I also assumed that an individual on Athas can get by on one meal per day if they have to.
Basically, I assumed that on Athas, 90% or more of the free populous lives at the poverty level. An unskilled laborer or basic militiaman earns enough in a day to just barely buy enough food and water to survive, with any left over income going to taxes, rent, and maybe a tiny bit of savings towards a new tunic or tool or to give himself a cushion for when he gets robbed, or can’t find work, or when the Templars decide to temporarily jack up the price of basic necessities. I realize that all the prices I gave don’t create a perfect economy that reflects the above, but my goal was to get it at least close enough for things to stay believable for the players.
(Ok, I understand that I kind of rambled all over the place, but I just wanted to give you an idea of some of the things I was taking into consideration when pricing things where I did.)
Originally posted by positronica:
Also, I should add that in my opinion, the Common Meal is common only for the middle class on Athas. Those who are slaves or are living in poverty probably acount for 90% of Athas’s population, and for those people, the “Common Meal” would be a rare treat. The middle class probably only accounts for about 10% of the populous, however this is the economic class that player characters start in (assuming that as a DM you give them their normal 100 gp at start), and so for players this would be the common meal. For 90% of people on Athas though, the Poor Meal would be what’s “common”.
(Note: I also assume that the noble and upper class occupy less than 1% of the populous.)
Originally posted by stevenlumpkin:
Rockin’, thanks for the detailed response!
Between what you’ve said and the prices for other goods in the books (assuming that things like Plate Armor and a Riding Horse are luxury goods, generally out of the wildest dreams of even the most distracted peasant), I think it’s probably likely that it is Survival Days that are priced incorrectly.
I put them down as an attempt to create drain on the player-hero economy, which (naturally) operates at a higher level than the economy of the npc’s and general populace. When you can pay for an interpreter for a month with 4gp, it doesn’t make much sense that you’d then pay 5gp for a day’s worth of packaged food and water.
Kind of puts it into perspective just how lucrative adventuring can be, when you consider treasure parcels… which, to my mind, also implies that it’s incredibly dangerous- or else everyone would be doing it!
That rambled a bit, but your response definitely helped me clear up some thoughts on my own campaign world. Thanks!
Originally posted by OneWeirdCat:
This may be way too detailed a thing to do mechanically, but I always wondered if copper, bronze, iron and steel could be represented in weapons benefits/penalties. We know that they have historical counterparts, with the order I listed them as the order of strength and effectiveness.
This was fairly easy to do in 2E, as wood, stone, bone, and obsidian weapons all had various penalties, so we set copper/bronze as -1 but far more durable, iron as average (0), and steel as superior (+1).
Also, thanks for including the Aztec sword (i couldn’t hope to pronounce it) perhaps you be so helpful to sound it out phonetically? I assumed that short swords of non metal were that, and perhaps longswords as well. I hadn’t thought to much about scimitars, etc.
The Datchi Club is from Dragon 185, for those who were wondering. I was considering making it brutal in my make, but I like that you made it d10, as i always considered it underpowered. Also, the only weapon that always gets ditched is the Crusher from the same issue. Probably to much of a pain the ass to confirm to 4E but it must be a superior weapon.
Originally posted by positronica:
[quote]This may be way too detailed a thing to do mechanically, but I always wondered if copper, bronze, iron and steel could be represented in weapons benefits/penalties. We know that they have historical counterparts, with the order I listed them as the order of strength and effectiveness.
This was fairly easy to do in 2E, as wood, stone, bone, and obsidian weapons all had various penalties, so we set copper/bronze as -1 but far more durable, iron as average (0), and steel as superior (+1).[/quote]
I included some limited rules for differentiating iron, bronze, and steel that tie into the Reckless Breakage rules. They’re at the bottom of the last page in the Weapons PDF. I figured it would be best to keep things simple and relatively minor in effect. If a character attempts a Reckless Breakage reroll with an iron weapon, the weapon breaks on a 5 or less, for bronze weapons its a 4 or less, and for steel weapons its a 3 or less.
Originally posted by baronspam:
A survival day is much more than just food and water. It includes those, of course, but it is an abstraction of everything you need to travel and live outside of the city states without need to worry about sickness from exposure. So in addition to food and water it includes medicines, salts (you can end up dead from electrolite imblances if are putting out large amounts of sweat and only replacing it with water), proper clothing and footware, material for shelters, fuel, firestarters, minor tools, basically everything you would pack onto your kank if you had to go survive in the wilderness for a while. When you spend the money for survival days you are not only replacing the consumables, but also repairing your tent, upgrading your tinterbox, and buying a new pair of boots to replace the onces you tore up hiking throught that obsidian field. It represents being well prepared for whatever the desert is doing to throw at you. Running out can mean hunger and thirst, but it can also mean bitter cold at night, not having a breating mask for the dust storm, or going half blind from the glare on the salt flat becuase you didn’t bring a set of visors to protect your eyes.
Originally posted by Alphastream:
Positronica, thanks for providing the raw files. I slowly worked through the weapons and armor, making a few changes. I will share them, should you or anyone else find them interesting or useful.
+For weapons:
[LIST][*]Both here and for weapons I listed the Athasian name first and then the core name in parentheses.
[*]I added the Quabone as an Athasian name for the mace. It seems pretty much the same to me.
[*]I added the Atlatl as the Athasian name for the Javelin.
[*]I added the Impaler as the Athasian version of the Heavy War Pick.
[*]I added the Forearm Axe as the Athasian version of the gauntlet axe.
[*]I added the Bard’s Friend as a new sup melee wpn.
[*]I modified the basic whip to be military melee and gave it a lower proficiency bonus of +2. I then added the Whip, Masters as a superior weapon that also has the defensive property. I envision feat trees that could add poisons and some of the other cool ideas from 2E.
[*]I added the Weighted Pike as a new Sup double weapon.
[*]I added the Double-Bladed Spear as a new Sup dbl weapon that basically replaces the Double-Flail.
[*]I made all crossbows into military versions. I removed the nonmetal repeating crossbow. For metal versions, I allowed the increase in range you made but not the damage. I see crossbows as fitting the setting less, but available in the SK’s armies.
[*]I removed the shuriken.
[*]I increased the range for the blowgun when made of metal.
[*]I added a set of rules for how PCs can salvage weapons, giving some benefits for the impromptu use of weapons that are picked up as substitutes.
[/LIST]
+For armor/gear:
[LIST][*]I plan on using the idea of reducing defenses by 1 for soldiers a bit more widely. I generally in DS throw more at the PCs but also want foes to fall faster.
[*]I modified inherent bonuses to defense. The first bump comes at 4th level, but after that they happen one level earlier. I find this is more in line with my own characters from Living Forgotten Realms and works well. There is a table for the first few increases next to the Mount section.
[*]I removed sunrods and replaced them in the adventurer’s kit. I don’t see Athas embracing these magical/alchemical abominations. This makes the adv kit cheaper but weigh more.
[*]I made a note of the climber’s kit having stone/bone/wood components.
[*]I made the Distillation Kit not portable.
[*]I removed the Everburning Torch and Glass Cutter.
[*]I made the Sun Balm a basically limitless supply, since the price is pretty high for the benefit.
[/LIST]
This is all possible thanks to you, so my hat really comes off for your work. I’m sure some of the changes are just my way of seeing things, and the vast majority of what you provided remains in my campaign as you had it originally.
Originally posted by Alphastream:
One thing a player brought up in my campaign was how the changes to nonmetal heavy armor feel like a nerf of a class feature. Your class granted you a certain AC, but now you get one point less. He suggested that instead all metal armor receive a +1 AC bonus. This way the game functions as intended and metal is still coveted. He made the point that this works like the weapon material rules - you get the normal state plus an optional breakage choice, and if it is metal it is even better. Thoughts?
Originally posted by positronica:
[quote]Yeah, I don’t see the files there either. If you PM me with an e-mail I will send a copy to you.
One thing a player brought up in my campaign was how the changes to nonmetal heavy armor feel like a nerf of a class feature. Your class granted you a certain AC, but now you get one point less. He suggested that instead all metal armor receive a +1 AC bonus. This way the game functions as intended and metal is still coveted. He made the point that this works like the weapon material rules - you get the normal state plus an optional breakage choice, and if it is metal it is even better. Thoughts?[/quote]
I thought about doing something like that, but I didn’t want to add any rules that would make items for some reason behave differently on Athas than they would on say Ebberon or Fearun. Rather than give metal armor on Athas better stats than it has in any world, I felt it would fit better to just lower the AC bonus for non-metal armor, however I tried to balance this out a bit by removing the speed penalty for non-metal chain and scale. (Keep in mind, that the Paladin, Knight, and Slayer are the only three classes that start with proficiency in plate.)
Anyways, if you have a player who doesn’t think that the extra speed fairly makes up for losing a little bit of AC, you could either let him get a hold of some metal armor early in the campaign, or try some different sort of rule. For example, you could give all non-metal armor the same stats as metal armor, however whenever a player in non-metal armor is hit by a critical they have to roll a d20. On a roll of 5 or less, their non-metal armor is damaged and they take a -2 penalty to AC until the armor is fixed. The cost to fix the armor would be 10% of the armor’s original cost. Metal armor would not be subject to this penalty.
Also, as for the links no longer working, I’m in the process of moving right now, but if I have some free time I’ll re-upload the files again. It might be a few days, though.
Originally posted by mgbeach:
First, awesome tool! Thanks for the work
On the subject of sunrods, in my campaign I replaced them with two items. There are “flares” that are very much like our real-world road flares, but smokeless. They are made by specialists with a secret mixture that is guarded carefully. Kind of like in the Wheel of Time how the Illuminators guild hordes the secret of fireworks. There are also vials that contain an extract from a night-glowing beetle (like luciferin in fireflies, and called glowjuice) that emits a reddish light when shaken vigorously. Either is the same cost and specs as sunrods.
Originally posted by mgbeach:
one more quick thing… if I’m understanding things correctly, due to its rich obsidian mines, shouldn’t Urik be listed as Supply for obsidian? and Tyr as Demand? I believe that is the main commodity traded from one to the other, for iron (which is correctly listed as Demand in Urik and Supply in Tyr). Thanks!
Originally posted by Alphastream:
My pleasure, and all the credit to the original author.
One thing I continue to wrestle with is heavy armor and how best to represent it on Athas. Because of mechanical balance (a class is given access to heavy armor as part of the balanced “package” suitable for the role and depending on other class features), it seems wrong to penalize heavy armor access or to lower its base AC. The more natural thing is to perhaps attach a rider to some skill challenges when heavy armor is worn, particularly when Endurance is used.
The sheet itself uses a system of lowering base heavy armor and then improving it with metal versions. I don’t particularly disagree with the math of it, since I think in Dark Sun it works best for all PCs to get hit often. As I said above, though, it does change the math and reduce the benefits to those classes. A more player-friendly alternate is to use the normal defenses and then have metal grant a bonus. This does increase the likelihood that your party will have someone with a very strong AC.
In my ideal world players would not feel shortchanged, every PC would still be hit fairly often, metal would be a bonus, and class role/features balance would be maintained. I’m never sure how to do that.
Originally posted by theninjad:
I think both ways make sense and are fair, from some point of view. I guess the final decision should probably be based on what the group prefers and will lead to the most fun all around. For me, I have not problem with it coming up with slightly lower AC. I’m going to be running my next campaign as a play-by-post on SomethingAwful (note that not everything on that site is work safe or family friendly but for a non-member, most naughty bits are hidden) where there seems to be an endless demand for D&D 4e games with a large player base so I can pretty much tell the players how it’s going to be and they’ll still happily jump onboard. There are even a lot of people there that love Dark Sun for being hardcore and players dying left and right. Those people probably wouldn’t mind things being made even harder on them.
Originally posted by vanadium322:
I found it slightly funny that this lists a gallon of liquid as weighing only 5 pounds.
Other than that, though, this is pretty amazing. I like the different breakage rules based on type of metal weapons are made from, and the corresponding price adjustments. Very cool.
Thought I’d contribute with the following, which I found online …
[Size=3]Meat and Protein[/size]
[UNKNOWN=dd]:
Meat Skewers - Meat is a staple in the diet of those who live in the Tyr region. A skewer of baazrag, erdlu, jankx, kip, or z’tal meat served with a small hunk of unleavened bread is daily fare. cost: 2 bits (one skewer and a hunk of bread)
Steaks - For the more wealthy, a juicy mekillot or inix steak can make an excellent meal.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 3-5 cp (one steak)
Meat Delicacies - Mouth-watering, rarely offered meats include cloud ray and cha’thrang. These meats are very expensive, a treat reserved for the nobility.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 3-10 sp (one steak)
Erdlu Eggs - The eggs of the large, flightless erdlus are a common food in the Tyr region.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 cp (one egg)
Agafari nuts - These are edible nuts from the agafari trees of the crescent forest.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 cp (one lb)
[Size=3]Fruits and Vegetables[/size]
Grall Fruit - The bulbous fruit of the grall cactus has a strong, bitter taste.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 2 bits (one fruit)
Faro Fruit - The faro tree produces fruit once in a decade and each piece of the delicious, sweet fruit is worth almost as much as the tree itself.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 10-20 sp (one fruit)
Geja Fruit - A soft-skinned fruit which is only ripe for a few days per year. When ripe, geja is extremely sweet and delicate. When dried, it retains much of the sweetness.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 5 cp ripe or 1 bit dried (one fruit)
Welela Gourd - Long and thin, welela gourds are prickly on the outside, but the inside is very sweet and contains a great deal of moisture.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 bit (handful)
Bulis Berries - These berries have a thick, hairy, brown skin that makes them very difficult to peel. They have a small, sweet, purple center.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 bit (handful)
N’ku’ru’ma - The finger-sized n’ku’ru’ma pods take on a slightly sweet flavor when roasted over an open fire.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 3 bits (4-5 pods)
Oleracea - The dull yellow leaves of the oleracea plant can be eaten raw or cooked and served with meals. They are flavorless, but quite nutritious.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 3 bits (2-3 leaves)
Neep - An orange root vegetable. It has a very bland flavor and is often served mixed with other foods rather than by itself.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 2 bits (each)
[Size=3]Breads and Grains[/size]
Bread - A common bread is made with grains, faro flour, water, and kank honey. The small, sweet, unleaved loaves are sold in a bundle.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 2 bits (bundle)
[Size=3]Beverages[/size]
[Size=3]Alcoholic[/size]
Broy - A mead made from fermented kank nectar. It is sometimes spiced and other times left unspiced.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 2 bits (one mug)
Water-Broy - A watered down broy, which helps to slake one’s thirst a bit more than thicker, sweeter broy.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 bit (one mug)
Blue Cactus Ale - This cheap, heavy ale is made from the fruit of the grall cactus.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 bit (one mug)
Beer - Common beer made from fermented grains.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 cp (one gallon)
Scuppernong - Thick, bitter, and silvery-colored, scuppernong is the favored drink among elves.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 cp (one jug)
Bulis Wine - Made from from fermented bulis berries, bulis wine has a bluish-purple color. It is rather inexpensive and is mainly purchased by the working class Athasians.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 cp (one jug)
Asticles Wine - This tart, dry wine is favored among the nobility. It a very fine drink and as such is very expensive.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 8 sp (one bottle)
[Size=3]Non-Alcoholic[/size]
Water - While water is definitely a commodity on Athas, it is quite common in the cities and is available for little or no cost.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: free or 1 bit (one cupful)
Kank Honey - This sweet liquid is produced in globules on the abdomen of the large insects.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 3 cp (cupful)
Kola Tea - Made from kola nuts which are ground into a fine powder and then steeped in water. Kola tea is a tasty beverage which stimulates the mind and wards off sleep.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 3 bits (one mug)
[Size=3]Snacks, Arena Concessions[/size]
Red Cactus Grubs - These are usually consumed by slaves or indentured servants. Some pop the heads off first, others eat them whole.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1-2 bits (4-5 grubs)
Sun Dried Kip - Sold in dried strips, kip-meat jerky is rather tasty.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 2-3 bits (3 strips)
Renks - Harmless, tasteless slugs that store water inside their bodies. Each holds approximately 1/2 cup of water.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 1 bit (5 renks)
Sun Dried Jankx - Similar to kip, although a bit tastier and usually slightly more expensive.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: cost: 3-5 bits (3 strips)
[Size=3]Restaurants, Inns, and Taverns[/size]
[Size=3]Tyr[/size]
The Golden Inix Inn - Located midway along the Caravan Way in Tyr, the Golden Inix Inn is a long, brick building. The aroma of sweet broy and frying inix can be smelled from outside. The sign above the entrance shows a golden inix on the left and a bottle on the right. Inside the door is a half-giant doorman with a stone morning star. The room is filled with tables and the half-elven proprietar, Mila, is seated behing an L-shaped counter. Serving girls enter and exit through a curtained doorway.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Several meat dishes, broy, Tyrian ale, Asticles wine.
The Red Kank - A wineshop in Shadow Square with reasonable prices. The Red Kank is a two sotry building. There is a terrace on the upper floor where customers may eat and drink while looking out over the square.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Various wines, breads, cheeses, and snacks.
The Happy Dwarf - A tavern located in Shadow Square which serves the widest variety of ales in all of Tyr. The specialty is “Cactus Blue”.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Cactus Blue, broy, water-broy, beer, scuppernong, bulis wine.
The Rats’ Nest - Also in Shadow Square, the Rats’ Nest has the cheapest wine and ale in town and that is reflected in the quality. This tavern is also rumored to serve as a fencing operation for stolen goods.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Water-broy and various other watered-down wines and beers.
The Weeping Widow - A Shadow Square tavern aimed at attracting gladiators. Stuffed and dried trophies of arena battles are displayed around the tavern.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Various ales and beers.
Midnight Sands - Another wineshop in the shadow square. Midnight Sands has much more of an atmosphere than the other wineshops. There are large, cushioned booths, silk curtains, scented oil lamps, and beautiful serving girls. The prices are much higher, but the nicer environment attracts a great deal of business.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Various wines.
The Drunken Giant - A less pretensious tavern in the Shadow Square, the Drunken Giant still boasts good food and drink at affordable prices. The owner is rumored to be friendly with the Veiled Alliance.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Broy, water-broy, beer, meat skewers, bread.
The Crystal Spider - A gambling hall at the edge of the Bard’s Quarter in Tyr, the Crystal Spider also has a bar at the rear and serves some of the most exotic foods in Tyr.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Broy, Asticles wine, scuppernong, beer, steaks, rare meats, n’ku’ru’ma, faro fruit.
The Hungry, Hungry Halfling - This inn is run by a thri-kreen and a halfling. It is said they stalk the back alleys to find recently dead elves and half-elves. Fresh elven stew is always available for those who desire to consume some.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Broy, elven stew, meat skewers.
The Ladle - A stall in the Arena Market of Tyr run by a half-giant named Tah. Three casks of differently spiced broy dilluted with water are available to choose from. For a bit, Tah will serve a ladle from whichever cask you choose.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Water-broy (3 varieties).
Sweet Bread - This small tent in Tyr’s Arena Market has no sign, but can easily be found by the smell of burning bread coming from within. The bakery is run by a rather antisocial halfling couple, La and Cha, who bake sweet, unleavened bread loaves day and night. A small bundle of the bread makes suitable daily rations for a human-sized individual.
[UNKNOWN=dd]: Food and Drink Served: Bread.
Split-Pit - Another stall in the Arena Market, this one serving roast meats. Sa-rea oversees the roasting and smoking of z’tal and kip meats over a special herbal wood. She sells generous cuts of these meats for one bit, served in a tropa husk. For a slight additional fee, Sa-rea will smoke or roast meats and pack them for a traveling caravan.
I assumed that short swords of non metal were that, and perhaps longswords as well. I hadn’t thought to much about scimitars, etc.