Not to derail the disscussion, but paladins need not necessarily be connected to the elementals. A character can be inspired by raaigs and wraiths such as those in the crimson temple in undertyr to take up the faith of a forgotten god and go on a quest to restore the religion/order. Is the source of their powers really divine? were the ancient gods real? maybe, maybe not. The mystery is part of the fun and a big part of dark sun. I can see a nearly faded god desperatly clinging to life and trying to restore its religion and divine conduits through mortal agents just as much as I can see a paladin whose beliefs are so strong, he psionically manifest power that emulate divine magic so closely it might as well be.
Can’t believe you made me defend paladins of all classes, I don’t even like paladins 
Though ironically dark sun is the only place where I can see myself playing one(along the lines stated above)
I’m only talking about the paladin class. This one.
The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil - these are the three weapons of the paladin. Few have the purity and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin’s path, but those few are rewarded with the power to protect, to heal, and to smite. In a land of scheming wizards, unholy priests, bloodthirsty dragons, and infernal fiends, the paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
Paladins take their adventures seriously and have a penchant for referring to them as quests. Even a mundane mission is, in the heart of the paladin, a personal test - an opportunity to demonstrate bravery, to develop martial skills, to learn tactics, and to find ways to do good. Still, the paladin really comes into her own when leading a mighty campaign against evil, not when merely looting ruins.
Divine power protects the paladin and gives her special powers. It wards off harm, protects her from disease, lets her heal herself, and guards her heart against fear. The paladin can also direct this power to help others, healing their wounds or curing diseases. Finally, the paladin can use this power to destroy evil. Even the least experienced paladin can detect evil, and more experienced paladins can smite evil foes and turn away undead. In addition, this power draws a mighty steed to the paladin and imbues that mount with strength, intelligence, and magical protection.
Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment. Additionally, paladins swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness.
Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity - devotion to righteousness is enough. Those who align themselves with particular religions prefer Heironeous (god of valor) over all others, but some paladins follow Pelor (the sun god). Paladins devoted to a god are scrupulous in observing religious duties and are welcome in every associated temple.
No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one’s destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin’s nature by any act of will. It is possible, however, to fail to recognize one’s own potential, or to deny one’s destiny. Occasionally, one who is called to be a paladin denies that call and pursues some other life instead.
Most paladins answer the call and begin training as adolescents. Typically, they become squires or assistants to experienced paladins, train for years, and finally set off on their own to further the causes of good and law. Other paladins, however, find their calling only later in life, after having pursued some other career. All paladins, regardless of background, recognize in each other an eternal bond that transcends culture, race, and even religion. Any two paladins, even from opposite sides of the world, consider themselves comrades.
Humans, with their ambitious souls, make great paladins. Half-elves, who often have human ambition, may also find themselves called into service as paladins. Dwarves are sometimes paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of the paladin’s life before duties to family, clan, and king. Elf paladins are few, and they tend to follow quests that take them far and wide because their lawful bent puts them out of synch with life among the elves. Members of the other common races rarely hear the call to become paladins. Among the savage humanoids, paladins are all but unheard of.
Even though paladins are in some ways set apart from others, they eagerly team up with those whose skills and capabilities complement their own. They work well with good and lawful clerics, and they appreciate working with those who are brave, honest, and committed to good. While they cannot abide evil acts by their companions, they are otherwise willing to work with a variety of people quite different from themselves. Charismatic, trustworthy, and well respected, the paladin makes a fine leader for a team.
The paladin’s chief role in most groups is as a melee combatant, but she contributes other useful support as well. She makes a good secondary healer, and her high Charisma opens up fine leadership opportunities.
There aren’t any examples on Athas of divine power coming from abstract concepts. I won’t rule it out fully, of course. Strange things can happen. But a paladin on Athas would be an oddity to say the least.
Addendum
Its worth pointing out what the Wanderer says about paladins. From the original boxed set.
Page 19: As a note, there are no paladins on Athas.
Page 22: There are no paladins in Dark Sun—the idea of serving good and right for the simple rewards of inner peace and faith faded from the barren world of Athas long ago. There is, however, one new warrior character class: the gladiator. Born of a demand for blood and excitement in the arenas, gladiators are, perhaps, the most deadly fighting characters.
As paladins do not exist on Athas in the present day, there is not a lot written about them. Interestingly, gladiators are offered up as the alternative to paladins, as Athasians are a bloodthirsty people.
I think Templars make a good alternative to playing a Paladin. They have quite a few similar mechanics.
Interesting that they offered gladiators as an alternate.
Let’s also not forget that the bard class got heavily modified to fit DS. I can’t see why a similar thing couldn’t be done for paladins. If someone really wants to play one. Give it a DS treatment.
Interesting to note that the adventure Black Spine included the monster manual entry for the githyanki that has the following:
Githyanki knights have all of the powers and abilities of a human paladin except these are turned toward evil (e.g. detect good instead of
detect evil, command undead instead of turning undead, etc.).
More of an anti Paladin but they offer a modification to the class nonetheless. I think the whole monster write up is for a generic setting not specific to DS.
My instinct is for maximal inclusion. I think the systemic error made by the previous team was that they wanted 3E to justify itself to the 2E Dark Sun setting, rather than proceed from the assumption that 3E is the default, and that there needs to be a justified reason why any class should be excluded. As I mention above, I won’t rule out a paladin, but its going to be an oddity, like an incident of a man biting a dog.
The Blackguard was excluded out of hand, without even an attempt to let them fit into the Dark Sun setting. This despite there being some textual basis for it. Page 66, Dragon Kings.
The direct paths from the prime material to the outer planes are called conduits. Anchored firmly at two locations, one on the prime and one in an outer plane, these wormhole conduits ferry beings back and forth regularly. On the prime, fixed locations such as temples are ideal anchors for conduits. Jealous of the unique relationship between the elemental planes and the prime material, some dark powers of the outer planes have fabricated living conduits that masquerade as living vortices, so that they might meddle further in the affairs of the tiny world of Athas.
Could this now allow for a Blackguard? Now - a requirement for a Blackguard is ‘the character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else’. Not easy, but probably not impossible, either.
I believe you’re reading the below quote wrong and then forwarding an erroneous argument.
They’re essentially talking about disrupting the setting narrative and feel, not the game mechanics.
But, speaking of game mechanics, if someone had instead said: “Psions are a optional class and we’re making them Core to DS 3.5e,nas psions are integral to DS. 3.5e Psions fill the exact conceptual and mechanical niches usually occupied by 3.5e Sorcerers, making Sorcerers pointless.” This wouldn’t continue to be a conversation today.
The same goes for eschew material components then. The chance of getting busted with spell components is way higher than being caught with your spellbook, which is likely stashed away carefully. Yet no one banned that feat.
I feel that Sorcerer and Psion are rather different. Both use abilities spontaneously, but the Sorcerer is far more constrained. Anyway - no Sorcerer = no Beguiler, no Dread Necromancer, no Warmage and so on. I can’t see any reason to exclude them. The starting point should be inclusion. Keep in mind that none of these classes, including Sorcerer, had any precedent in the Forgotten Realms either. Yet there they are.
Apples and oranges. Eschew Materials is similar to Psionic Mimicery, which itself was a NPW in 2e. EM has a legit mechanical benefit, as opposed to just a narrative one, and is takeable by any spellcaster, not just sorcerers or even arcanists.
That’s really the rub, isn’t it? YOU can’t see a reason, not there isn’t a reasonable or legitimate one. Tastes and opinions vary, and for every person who wants Sorcerers in DS, there’s another who hates everything in the Expanded Boxed Set.
There’s no possibility of winning or being right.
If anyone really wants Sorcerers or Warmages and Dread Necromancers, etc in Dark Sun, then write up an article (or a series) for here or on Athas.org, detailing how they’d fit into Athas and how someone could carve out a mechanical niche for the class in their game.
Yeah, ultimately it was a choice. I remember Brax being against the Barbarian, not because the class wasn’t appropriate, but because the name and thus some of it’s abilities didn’t fit. Which is why in some older versions it was called the Brute or something.
Nowadays my thought is that if someone wants the class in and has a reason they’d fit IN THEIR GAME. Then they should do it.
I don’t think the idea that because Monks are not eastern style monks (from the 1-2 examples) in Dark Sun doesn’t mean that they couldn’t be included. If you want a 4 elements monk decide if they’re related to a Clerical group or maybe a druidic circle. Again make what you want.
Eschew material components is literally useless for a non-arcane spellcaster. I am reminded of this thread elsewhere.
You are begging the question about the mechanical niche. You’ve set the mechanical niche as a requirement for some reason without asking yourself why a class needs to provide a mechanical niche. I’ve been on the forums and seen the back and forth for a long time on these issues. Here is another quote from the mailing list, from a fellow called A Hughey.
Come up with an athasian reason that actually works (the pristine tower warped me is obviously not going to be accepted) and a few examples and then people will be more willing to consider it. I know I would.
Many folks have done this several times over the past couple years with rather dissapointing results. There has been lots of resistance that usually breaks up into two main camps.
The first camp has a fairly rigid view of Athas (colored strongly by 2nd ed prejudices) that ends up with a “it wasn’t in the boxed set, it shouldn’t exist” kind of attitude. Many of their arguments hinge on things like the need for spellbooks or some other thing without which Athas won’t make sense. (Flip and I have both demonstrated the flaws in the literacy argument.)
The second camp resembles the first and often has similar arguments, but their main reservation is actually a dislike for the sorceror class itself, Athas or no. Of course, this is a gross generalization covering a variety of opinions, but these are the two main groups oppposing the sorcerers in Dark Sun proposals.
Below are links to my huge post on sorcerors in the archives. It is very rough and just a proposal I made to counter those who said “write it up and we’ll take a look at it.” The most popular kind of response indicated they’d consider it, but only if sorcerors were saddled with some kind of mcguffin to mark them as sorcerors (talisman, tattoo, funny hat, etc.).
An article here or there won’t make it better when people insist that Sorcerers must be descendants of dragons or supernatural beings, even though it doesn’t say that in 3E at all. Even if that were the case, sorcerous powers could be fluffed as force of will or personal practice. For what its worth, here is the 3.5E fluff for Sorcerer.
Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories - just raw power that they direct at will. Some sorcerers claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins. That claim may even be true in some cases - it is common knowledge that certain powerful dragons can take humanoid form and even have humanoid lovers, and it’s difficult to prove that a given sorcerer does not have a dragon ancestor. It’s true that sorcerers often have striking good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at an unusual heritage. Others hold that the claim is either an unsubstantiated boast on the part of certain sorcerers or envious gossip on the part of those who lack the sorcerer’s gift.
I am putting in bold the parts that cast serious doubt on supernatural ancestry.
The point I am making is that the demand for proof that 3E classes fit in Dark Sun is backwards. Compatibility should be assumed until proven otherwise.
You are mistaken. Practically useless, perhaps; literally, nope.
@raddu I 100% support people using whatever they want in their games - I’ve used the Chameleon PrC myself - and I’m sure the 3.5e Rules folks do too, but if the question is “why did a design decision for the 3.6e rules get made”, that’s different than telling folks they can’t uae something.
Ultimately, no designer owes their consumer anything but good work.
Please look at those spells. Look under “material component”. If it says “arcane material component”, it is irrelevant to you as a divine caster. If it says “material component” and the component is worth over 1gp (1 cp on Athas), then eschew material components is not applicable. If there were more divine spells than I can count on my hand that are applicable to eschew material components, I’ll eat my hat. This is getting hit with a bolt of lightning territory.
I think the concern was compatibility across tables. For example, if someone wanted to play a barbarian, but barbarian was not accepted by the official rules, then there is a good chance it will be excluded from many tables. Ultimately the decision to exclude the barbarians was reversed, and that was a good thing. I just wish the Sorcerer had been accepted also.
The aim was to convert Dark Sun to 3E and then 3.5E. Not convert 3.5E to Dark Sun. When I look at what is should be permitted and what should not be permitted, setting warping is the most important consideration. Sorcerer doesn’t warp the setting.
I think that a big part of why people insist that, is that is for reasons well discussed above, sorcerers don’t add anything new to the setting and to some their existence even detracts.
Making them the descendants of advaced beings give them a niche wholly their own in the setting, without cheapening themselves to wizards knockoff or detracting from the roll of wizards in the settings.
I am not sold on it, but if the same kind of fluff was used (that is, like 3E, leaving supernatural heritage as an open question), it would be alright. To whit -
Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories - just raw power that they direct at will. Some sorcerers claim that the blood of sorcerer monarchs courses through their veins. That claim may even be true in some cases - it is common knowledge that certain powerful sorcerer monarchs, such as the sorcerer-queen of Raam, have hundreds of children, and it’s difficult to prove that a given sorcerer does not have a sorcerer monarch ancestor. It’s true that sorcerers often have striking good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at an unusual heritage. Others hold that the claim is either an unsubstantiated boast on the part of certain sorcerers or envious gossip on the part of those who lack the sorcerer’s gift.
That’s okay, I lean more towards 5e (and pathfinder, as it was pointed out to me) take that their magic comes from a bloodline.
I think it differentiates them from wizards and allows them to be their own thing.
But that’s just my opinion.
The reason why I raise this is because most people interested in Dark Sun that adhere to the lore about Rajaat creating magic take a materialist approach to magic. In a sense, its more of a science than an occult art. Therefore, “magical” creatures cannot exist. In the setting, psionic creatures take the place of magical creatures. It follows then that Sorcerers, if they are empowered by some supernatural bloodline, represent a challenge to this perspective by their very existence.
I have offered up various alternative reasons for the existence of sorcerers, including magical pollution. But it could just as easily be an approach to magic that relies on force of will rather than scholarly research, like the sorcerers of the Dragonlance setting. Whatever the reason, I prefer it as an open question. Are they descendants of the sorcerer monarchs? The product of magical pollution? Or merely will to power arcanists?
The problem with that is that it raises questions like why weren’t there any sorcerers before Rajaat then? And If all it takes is a force of will, don’t psions fill that roll already, Perhaps even better? Why would you need sorcerers at all then?
We are speaking at cross purposes when it comes to psions and sorcerers. Yes - with psions, it’s “the Will and the Way”. But it’s a different type of will. Psions use their intelligence. Sorcerers focus on force of personality, aka charisma.
If Rajaat is in the setting and is the creator of magic, then force of will alone cannot make a sorcerer. But since Rajaat is an unknown figure, it shouldn’t make a difference to descriptions of sorcerers that are speculative in nature.
My personal take is a combination of two things. Do they enrich the setting in any way? I don’t feel like they do. Do they cause issues and complications with the story of magic in the setting? Yes. Would I say absolutely no sorcerer could ever exist in the setting? No, but making them a standard class that anyone could choose doesn’t make any sense to me. If there are a bunch of them running around innately casting arcane magic that’s warping the setting in my opinion. That sort of innate power is the domain of psionics on Athas. Arcane magic is something that requires a teacher and studying.
Sorcerers require teachers in the Dragonlance setting. I’m fine with that too. In this instance, it’s training to access magic in a way different to wizards.
In the Dragonlance setting, in the Age of Mortals (3E), one can become a Sorcerer if another Sorcerer teaches, assuming they have a Charisma score high enough to cast spells. Palin Majere teaches sorcery at the Academy of Sorcerery, and there is also a very cool Sorcerer prestige class called the academy sorcerer connected with that. It’s also possible to learn to be a sorcerer 1 to 1.
As I mention upthread, if you are taking the materialist approach to magic, then it makes it difficult to countenance creatures with innate magical ability (although the nightmare beast is one such example). So just change the fluff. The idea is to convert Dark Sun to 3.5E, not convert 3.5E to Dark Sun.
That does at least partially solve the issue if they have to be taught. It still leaves the question of who the heck came up with this other way of accessing magic, having multiple arcane traditions like that still feels off to me, but it’s less of a problem since it doesn’t disrupt the SK and veiled alliance control of magic and organization the same way.