Originally posted by kalthandrix:
Final Version
[quote]Crimson Legionnaire
For Tyr and Freedom!
-War cry of the Crimson Legion.
After the destruction of the original Crimson Legion that marched against Urik, Tyr has had not standing army to defend it or the city-state’s boarders. Fearing that another war would find Tyr unprotected, a group of veterans from the original Legion petitioned the Council to allow for a reformation of the Crimson Legion, under the Councils supervision, in order to protect the Free City. Since then, the Crimson Legion has gained in numbers and skill and now stands ready to defend Tyr with the lives of all those who make up their ranks.
Crimson legionnaires may come from any race; with human, half-elves, muls, and dwarves making up the larger part of its ranks. Of the thousands that made up the original Crimson Legion, only a few hundred survived its destruction, and it is those veterans, composed of barbarians, fighters, gladiators, and psychic warriors, that form most of the crimson legionnaire’s ranks. Other warriors besides veterans are accepted within the crimson legionnaires. In the intervening years since the Crimson Legion re-forming, there has been a large increase in the legionnaire ranks as Tyrians step forward to ensure their continued freedom. To become a crimson legionnaire, these warriors must prove themselves through physical trials and tests of the heart; those that are accepted are taught by the veterans the hard-learned lessons of the lost war.
In exercise patrols along the city-state’s borders, or while on protection details for the city’s pauper farms and noble estates, the Crimson Legion is ever active protecting the city’s interests, with the crimson legionnaires at its core. Fore they are the elite core of the Legion, forming the strong center in every line or the tip of the spear as they charge the enemy.
Hit Dice: d10
Requirements:
To qualify to become a crimson legionnaire, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Skills: Knowledge (warfare) 2 ranks, Survival 3 ranks
Feats: Freedom
Special: Must be a Tyrian citizen. The crimson legionnaire must have been part of the original Crimson Legion or they need to have been taught by one.
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (warfare), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis). Skill points at each level: 2+ Int modifier
Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the crimson legionnaire prestige class.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A crimson legionnaire gains proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and with all armor and shields.
Service: As part of the Crimson Legion, there are certain benefits and duties to fulfill. As long as you serve, you have room and board in the cities barracks and are provided with your war kit, which consists of a set of chitin armor, heavy wood shield, obsidian-tipped short spear, and bone short sword. Food and drink are also provided in the Legions mess halls. Crimson legionnaires are paid 5 bits per day per class level.
It is required of the crimson legionnaires to take part in any guard duty, missions, maneuvers, or wars that your superiors tell you to take part in (details of service are left up to the DM).
In order to advance within this class, the crimson legionnaire must be part of Tyr’s Crimson Legion. Service in the Legion can be terminated, which does not cause the crimson legionnaire to lose any of their class features, but they cannot gain anymore level within this class unless they join the Crimson Legion again.
Freedom’s Defense (Ex): As a veteran defender of Tyr’s freedom, the crimson legionnaire can mobilize a greater surge of heroism than most. At 1st level the crimson legionnaire gains another use per day of the Freedom feat.
Bonus Feat: The training within the Crimson Legion is very good, utilizing the knowledge of its members to forge a strong cohesive unit. At 2nd and 4thlevel a crimson legionnaire gains a bonus feat that may be selected from the following as long as they meet the prerequisites: Concentrated Fire, Endurance, Diehard, Protective, Rotate Lines, Spear Wall. He must still meet the requirements for any feat selected.
Brother’s In Arms (Ex): The crimson legionnaires usually find themselves in the heart of the battle, securing their fighting line as their enemies try to penetrate their defenses. Individually they would fall to a greater force, but by working together they are much stronger. At 3rd level, a crimson legionnaire gains the Companion feat as a bonus feat.
Legion’s Bond (Ex): By 5th level the crimson legionnaire’s close bond with his fellow soldiers translates into a greater facility while fighting in groups. The crimson legionnaire can make use of the Aid Another action in melee combat as a swift action, as long as he is aiding a fellow soldier or friend of the Free City.
LevelBABFortReflexWillSpecial<br />1+1+2+0+0Service, Freedom’s Defense<br />2+2+3+0+0Bonus Feat<br />3+3+3+1+1Brother’s In Arms<br />4+4+4+1+1Bonus Feat<br />5+5+4+1+1Legion’s Bond
[/quote]
Originally posted by Sysane:
I like the concept, but a feat every level is pretty sick even for a 3 level PrC.
I’d suggest limiting it to 2 feats and maybe granting a PrC ability at the level a feat wasn’t gained.
Thats my two bits. 
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
[quote]I like the concept, but a feat every level is pretty sick even for a 3 level PrC.
I’d suggest limiting it to 2 feats and maybe granting a PrC ability at the level a feat wasn’t gained.
Thats my two bits. ;)[/quote]
Thanks Sysane- I always enjoy your comments, unless they are mean and then I do not 
(Next stop, Crazyville!!)
I thought of doing an ability, but did not want to add any magical or psionic influences in it.
As for a feat a each level- as you can see, the choice of bonus feats that can be selected are very restricted. If I went to a five level class, the feats would be gained on 1st, 3rd, and 5th- but I did not want to go that way because I see this class as a short side trip in the character progression.
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
I agree with the way that you did things, though I can see Sysanes point. I think in this case because of the extremely limited feat selection and the fact the the feats on the list aren’t prerequisites for other more powerful feat that its OK to give on at each level.
Man there are so many good PrCs being made right now, its CRAZY 
Originally posted by Pennarin:
[quote]Freedom is not free, you must fight for it and earn it, or some tyrant will just come and put you in a slave pen.
-Kandler, Caption of the Crimson Legion.[/quote]
Caption?
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Why not redesign the PrC a bit:
Since the Crimson Legionnaires at the core of the new army (those who actually take levels in this PrC) are from the old legion, you could have as a prerequisite a gladiator class ability.
Further, give not feats but class abilities that make Gladiator or Arena Champion or Pit Fighter class abilities work in a battlefield situation, contrarily to working mostly in a arena context with a crowd. That way, the abilities of said classes that are worthless in battlefield situations can now be useful, and it would match the PrC fluff perfectly.
If not, then you could build upons said class abilities, creating new related abilities that are specifically designed for battlefield situations.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Ok, I checked up on the Gladiator and Arena Champion: except for the latter’s Crowd Support class feature, no abilities are specifically related to arenas or crowds of non-combatants. So lets drop that.
I would imagine that such veterans of the old Legion would be capable of working together quite well and fight with the will of those that have tasted freedom…
So I suggest an ability that allows Crimson Legionnaires to work better together, such as …
- adding 2 to the Aid Another bonus when used to help a friendly soldier attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent
- or allowing the legionnaire to Aid Another during combat as a free action, once per round (it will cost a standard action to opponents who attempt this).
And an ability related to what freedom brings to them as warriors, and that soldiers of other cities’ armies don’t have:
- if you take the Freedom feat from DS3 as a prerequisite, you can have an ability that brings to 2 the number of times per day you can use that feat’s abilities, as long as the extra use is made in the defense of Tyr.
Btw you fixed Caption with Captian…I think you meant to write Captain?
[quote]AID ANOTHER
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.[/quote]
Originally posted by elonarc:
Headline of the Tyr News:
“Foul Play Uncovered!!! Crimson Legion serves sinister purpose!!!”
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Very nice (I’ve been waiting for this one)! I’d probably give them a good Will save though, and give them something like this instead of a bonus feat at 1st level,
or this instead of a bonus feat at 3rd level.
But not both. In any case, what can I say but 
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
[quote]
Headline of the Tyr News:
“Foul Play Uncovered!!! Crimson Legion serves sinister purpose!!!”[/quote]
Whoops ! I guess that is what I get for copying and pasting the basic format that I use from on PrC to another.
I like a lot of the suggestions that you guys are making, but they are really simular to the bonus feats that are offered as part of the PrC.
I will make another feat, like freedom but an improved or greater version that will allow them to use their freedom ability more.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
There’s no point to creating unique feats for a PrC, feats that no one else but the member of that class will take.
If you want to create a “Greater Freedom” feat, and have it as an automatic bonus feat for the Crimson Legionnaire, well all you end up doing is making the legionnaire’s class ability nothing more than what any other guy with a feat to spare can have.
But, if you don’t create such a feat but instead craft a class ability that, basically, does the same thing as a “Greater Freedom” feat, then its all right because only the legionnaire ends up having that ability.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
I have decided to keep this PrC in its present form- I believe that it is a good, strong PrC that has great potential for some good roleplaying, and at the same time it is not overpowered.
One of the important things to remember about this PrC is that the character is part of the army of Tyr- which could limit travel and several other aspects of regular “adventuring”.
It could also provide some great opportunities to add some mass combat to your game, or allow a Fighter/Crimson Legionnaire the chance to organize the defense of a village or camp.
Use it as you will, but I hope you like it.
Originally posted by jon_oracle_of_athas:
Regardless of feat reportoire, a feat at every level is too much.
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
What is your rational?
Comparisons for Balance:
The Ranger base class gets three feats in succession one of which even offers a choice between two different feats, and on top of that two other special abilities that are equivilent in power to feats.
The Monk base class gets a bonus feat at 1st level, a feat choosen for them (Unarmed Strike), and another special ability (flurry of blows). Then at second level they get another bonus feat plus evasion. Then another special ability at the next level. Thats a total of 5 feat equivilent abilities, plus another lesser ability.
There are only 8 feats on the list that can be chosen as bonus feats. The PrC only gives you three of them in 3 levels. If the class were setup like either of the ones mentioned above you would effectively end up with 5 of the feats but with less choice on the order they are obtained in and would be restricted to the following total possibilities:
Ranger: 6 different feat-equivilent possible, 5 aquired
Monk: 7 different feat-equivilent possible, 5 aquired+1 lesser ability
Crimson Legionnaire: 8 different feats possible, 3 aquired
Plus, like I said before, these feats don’t build up to more powerful feats. Some of the feats/feat-equivilent abilities gained by the Ranger and Monk do.
So, in conclusion I totally fail to see how this could be construed as too many abilities gained for three levels. Just because there is no exsisting PrC that uses this format does not make it imbalanced. If anything its a little underpowered in trade for a little more choice.
Please, don’t have me executed for my defiance 
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Even if rule-wise this were ok, it should be avoided because, well, and this is not a rule, but such a prestige class lacks in flavor: it has no class abilities, only bonus feats.
The only other class like that that I know has been published by WotC is the Sword of Righteousness in the BoED. A 3 level PrC that gives at each level a bonus exalted feat taken from a master list that has in it three pre-determined exalted feats and one exalted feat of your choice. The authors even say in clear terms that the class is only a way for combat-oriented characters to get more exalted feats (something that’s tough for them to do).
Originally posted by jon_oracle_of_athas:
You must compare the class to a Fighter, which has the same HD, saves and skills per level. A Fighter gets a bonus feat every other level, this class gets a feat every level. There’s your rationale. Also, your class is missing a key component in its abilities - flavor. This is a very general class that could have had just about any name and describing text.
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
Fighters can choose from a huge list of feats that include many many feats that build up into more powerful ones, plus they can choose fighter exclusive feats. Those things have to count for something. Plus, though similar, the Fighter is probably the weakest of the base classes if a comparison were to be made.
The selection of feats allowed restricts it to a Professional Soldier style Class, and the Feat prerequisite to a Tyrian one. The special prerequisite narrows it down the rest of the way specifically.
Incidentally it’s Kalthandrix’s class. I was merely defending it as balanced, and viable from that stand point, from what I still see as unfounded attacks. I’m not going to argue about its flavor, it is pretty generic, you have a point there.
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
I could go on in more detail about the class comparisons if you like
Originally posted by Pennarin:
To quote Nyt: “Aroo?”
Jon and me have not made attacks. Reading Jon’s posts again I see he’s telling Sage the how and why of PrC making, something he’s had plenty of experience with.
And me, I said the class lacks in flavor due to the absence of class abilities.
Where is the attack in that I ask you?
Originally posted by jon_oracle_of_athas:
Yes, a Fighter obviously allows for more customization, but in my experience a narrow selection of feats does not warrant a faster feat progression than a Fighter - especially when the feats are potent, such as in this case where you can take Endurance and Diehard in just two levels - then drop out of the class after two levels if you don’t want one of the other feats. This class also has the benefit of not counting against the number of classes you have for purposes of determining xp penalties - for non-Fighter Tyrian characters who want just one of the feats on the list, as opposed to taking a level of Fighter. To summarize, a narrow feat selection is not a balancing factor if the feats are feats a character would want to take anyway.
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
[quote]To quote Nyt: “Aroo?”
Jon and me have not made attacks. Reading Jon’s posts again I see he’s telling Sage the how and why of PrC making, something he’s had plenty of experience with.
And me, I said the class lacks in flavor due to the absence of class abilities.
Where is the attack in that I ask you?[/quote]
I wasn’t trying to imply that you or him were attacking me. I don’t think that at all. Like I said: I was defending the game balance of the PrC. I don’t think it can be questioned that he was attacking that 
. His telling me the how and why of PrC making is not mutually exclusive with attacking the PrC’s balance.
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
I can see your argument there, except I think that the special requirement kind of prevents that sort of abuse. You have to actually become a part of the Crimson Legion to get the class, you can’t just pick it up on a whim. That is unless your DM doesn’t care about story. I wouldn’t join a military organization just to gain one feat, and if your characters do that sort of stuff then they’re obviously much more concerned with roll-playing then role-playing. Besides these feats wouldn’t benefit non-fighting types very much.
As for your summary, the same thing could be applied to a fixed feat selection if those were the ones you wanted, and there are plenty of class/PrC that will give you one of those every level (or the equivilent), sometimes more than one. So I don’t buy that at all, I think it is a blancing factor a very important one in fact. Maybe not just as a narrow selection, but dependant on what is available in that narrow selection.
You can’t tell me that if the list included these 8 feats instead of the ones it does that it wouldn’t be much more powerful:
Power Attack, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Cleave, Improved Trip
So these things matter to issues of balance I think.
So you don’t get the wrong idea, this discussion is merely academic for me. I really have no vested interest in whether it gets changed or not. In fact at this point I would rather see the class changed. Despite the fact that I don’t see any issues of imbalance in the class, I do agree that It lacks flavor. And I think the more important problem with allowing a PrC that has this setup is setting a bad precident. Though this one in particular seems perfectly balanced to me, I don’t think that others with this format would be likely to be balanced. In general it does seem like something to be avoided.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Kalthandrix, can we talk using instant messaging? Next time you see me online please try and contact me. Thanks.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
Originally posted by jon_oracle_of_athas:
You must assume that power gaming will happen and joining an army isn’t that hard - they’re always looking for volunteers.
[quote]You can’t tell me that if the list included these 8 feats instead of the ones it does that it wouldn’t be much more powerful:
Power Attack, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Cleave, Improved Trip[/quote]
How does this contradict what I said? That feat selection makes the class more broken, yes. Doesn’t mean the existing feat selection isn’t broken already. 
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
All of the material I made will be reposted after it has been revised.
Guess I woke up on the wrong side of yesterday and was in a pissy mood- Sorry.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
Revised the orginal Crimson Legionnaire to make it a 5 lvl PrC to spead out the bonus feat progression and added some special features to give the PrC more flavor- Thanks Meth, Nytcrawler, and Pennarin for the feedback.
I would really like any feedback from the board- I promise not to flipout this time.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
Made a few additional changes- namely removing two feats from the bonus feat list and changing the aquisition of the bonus feats to 2nd and 4th level. There is a new ability called hold the line that basically gives the CL the campanion feat for free- I thought that this would flow with the other abilities that they get.
isn’t going to want to have to put plots or ideas on hold for a game year just so some power gaming fool can get a couple of feats
have a chicken.