I agree with your philosophy in full. I really wish something like this (including your feat system, maybe toned down just a touch) had been in the published rules instead. Unfortunately, that time is long passed. I’m eager to see the rest of the spells.
(As an aside, would you mind if I created something and posted it here that used your rules?)
(As a second aside, in your version of the Avangion, what type would you have them be? There were massive discussions on this back on the old wizards forums, which I can see now, thanks to the archives you dug up. Aberration, Fey, and Native Outsider were the three commonly suggested, and the epic bureau obviously went with aberration. Personally, I’m torn)
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The 2E fluff makes it clear that they are native outsiders. In their final metamorphosis, they go on a cruise of the planes in a glass case. It also makes better sense in terms of the saving throws, BAB, etc with my framework.
See my salient feat Altered Beast for switching types from dragon to something else. Oronis is an outsider avangion, in my opinion, and Daskinor an aberration, due to a localized rift into the Far Realm (homebrew lore) in Eldaarich.
As for using my stuff, go ahead. That’s why I posted it. Use it. Change it. Add to it.
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While you’re here, redking, what do you image Bory’s levels to be? Or hell, even some of the other sorcerer monarch’s. I feel like that’s the one piece missing from my understanding of your system as opposed to the one used “officially” by athas.org.
(Also, out of curiosity, I noticed a reference to Rajaat’s mystical reserve under the epic spells. does that mean that you approximated his level too?)
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Level 50 for the Dragon of Tyr, same as 2E.
A simple build for the Dragon is Wizard 8, Psion 8, Athasian Cerebremancer TN version 14, evolved paragon 20, for a total of 50 levels. I need a better name for evolved paragon lol.
The SMs are in the low to mid 40s, just like in 2E.
Back on the wizards dot com boards, every SM build needed crazy numbers of levels, usually exceeding 60, and usually around the 75 range. Except for Dregoth, no SM got official stats because the templarate couldn’t make it work.
I go by the fluff in the first boxed set. The SMs aren’t deities, but they come very close. They are unambiguously at the top of the list of predators, and their peers are the likes of elemental rulers, demon lords, and Hellish nobility. Speaking of, the Gates of Hell by Dicefreaks is great. Highly recommended. That’s the homebrew canon I use for the Nine Hells.
Rajaat I put at 65 HD.
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Thanks for the Gates of Hell recommendation, looking into it now. Honestly, I think the fluff you’re thinking of for the SMs is probably Lynn Abbey’s Rise and Fall, as I’ve looked in the first boxed set recently and it doesn’t actually say that much about the power of the SM’s aside from stating that they aren’t gods.
How much do you know about the Mind Mage Prc from dragon 313? Because I think it’s perfect for the SMs. (also, I like your non true necromancer version of the athasian cerebremancer better.) I’m thinking something like Wizard 5, Psion 5, Athasian Cerebremancer 10, Mind Mage 10, Evolved Paragon 20 as simple stats for a full dragon. Hell, I’ll probably write them up after I see the rest of the spells.
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I’ve got reservations about using 2 different dual progression classes in the same build. It smacks of metagaming your PC or NPC. As for the mind mage, yes, I do like it. Very powerful though.
If you don’t like the TN version and prefer the 10 version of the Athasian Cerebremancer, then you could just add advanced magic granting dragon magic or avangion magic from TN as an additional capstone to 10 level AC - it’s no big deal.
The twin wells feature from mind interacts badly with one of my salient feats. Obviously mind mage is a very powerful option. The other class features are not too powerful.
I’m looking forward to seeing your material.
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One thing I’ve always been confused about is why in both 3e and 4e (dragon stats in creature catalogue) athasian dragons grew to gargantuan size. In terms of creatures native to athas, and compared to the human form they started with, they are massive, but gargantuan was basically the equivalent of huge size to colossal size in second edition. In comparison to say, dragons in FR or Dragonlance, Athasian dragons are extremely small, even fully transformed (40 ft. head to tail, maybe 30 ft. tall standing up fully. Wingspan 60 ft.? 80?). Huge size at most. (though in 2e, their natural attacks did ludicrous amounts of damage, even for dragons. I wonder if there’s a good way to capture this in 3e?)
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According to the SRD, the dragon type already grants low light vision.
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Working on some of it in preliminary stages now. 2 questions about the divine array and advanced beings:
- Are skill points recalculated retroactively for advanced beings when they get the array?
- Templates and racial benefits are overwritten. How do wishes, aging benefits, and inherent bonuses work with advanced beings? Because if they work normally, you can easily crack 50 int without magic items. (15 base, +3 age, +20 divine bonus, +5 inherent, at least 7 level increases=50)
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Good find. I’ll make adjustments later today.
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In 3.5E they do not retroactively get skill points (while in pathfinder they do). However, if I look a the Psychic Reformation power, it would appear that skill points would be recalculated.
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Inherent bonuses from wishes remain. I’d get rid of aging penalties and bonuses for aging, and I’ll update ageless to reflect that (conforms with Kissed by the Ages from Dragon Magazine). The way the divine array is assigned to the stats is by the DM, not the player. I can see the player wanting the highest bonus applying to intelligence, and the lowest to Strength or Charisma, but that’s not the way it works. All ability scores go up, and generally the weakest ones get the strongest boosts in the evolution into an advanced being. I’ll make that clear when I write the chapter on guidelines to design an advanced being.
I have no idea why the size of Athasian Dragons are so small. For size, I use the Red Dragon as a baseline. A Red Dragon tops out at colossal when it becomes a Great Wyrm. So should the Athasian dragon.
Note that Athasian Dragons under Athas dot org rules can barely even land a hit on a character of the same level because their base attack bonus is so low. That’s why I have a salient feat that brings makes their BAB = character level.
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personally, I’m fine with athasian dragons being small and fairly humanoid, it makes them unique. That said, I’m all for seeing how your version of the transformation plays out. I’ve spent a lot of time prepping a stat block since first seeing your update. It’s mostly just missing skills and the benefits from the updated Transformation spells. All powers, feats etc. are done, though with your new guidelines Im going to have to recalculate a few things. Should be fun.
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For dragons, I like how they were presented in the Prism Pentad. The phenotype depends on the individual changing.
How many of the metamorphosis spells do you need? These metamorphosis spells are to showcase what can be done, but different individuals will have different ways of changing.
Ideally? all ten. I can use the ones from LoA in a pinch though.
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Some of my DCs from my metamorphosis table are placeholders. Anyway, here is IV.
Defiler Metamorphosis IV
Transmutation (psionic enchantment)
Spellcraft DC: 72 DC
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 minute
Target, effect or area: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: N/A
Spell Resistance: No
To develop: 648,000 Cp, 13 days, 25,920 XP. Seed: metamorphosis (28 DC). Factors: gain 2 claw attacks (+30 DC). Gain bite attack (+30 DC). Gain tail attack (+30DC). Maximum hitpoints per HD (+100). Immunity to energy drain (+30 DC). Natural Armor bonus +5 (+150 DC). Mitigating factors: psionic enchantment via expenditure of epic power slot (-19 DC). Change range to personal (-2 DC). Sacrifice 2000 HD of living creatures (-100 DC). 12,500,000 Cp focus structure (-125 DC). 25d6 backlash damage (-20 DC). Burn 5500 XP (-55 DC).
After upgrading your focus structure, the arcane energies guided with your mental power reshape your body even further, becoming even more dragon in appearance.
This spell may only be cast after the defiler metamorphosis III spell has been cast, and you must be of dragon type. Additionally, this spell must be cast as a psionic enchantment, meaning an epic psionic power slot must be expended in the casting. The spell must be cast within a specialized focus structure designed specifically for the second three defiler metamorphosis spells, costing no less than 12,500,000 Cp (125,000 gp). This may either be a new structure, or the original structure used for the first three spells may be upgraded to meet these requirements.
Your humanoid origins can now hardly be recognized, as your weight and height continue to increase. Scales now cover every part of your body but the underbelly and the underside of your limbs, strengthening your Natural Armor (+5). The legs become strikingly inhuman, developing huge thighs and a hard-angled, bony calf and taloned foot. At this point, you may also hunch severely at shoulder and waist, and can move either upright or on all four limbs. Your wicked claws can now be used as weapons. Your teeth become sharp as razors, enabling a bite attack. A tail now extends from your rear, which you can use to tail slap foes. Additionally, your lifeforce firmly rooted in your body. You are immune to energy drain. Finally, your hitpoints become maximized, meaning that you get maximum hitpoints per die.
Example: A human defiler’s weight may increase up to 900 pounds, and they may be as long as 12 foot.
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Cool. I like these ones much better.
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Where would you take the metamorphosis from here?
Can you clarify the question here?
I was wondering how you would progress the metamorphosis. I will start increasing immunities, size, add frightful presence, etc.