I would say choose one or the other, but not both. That’s what I am objecting to because of design principles. You have two dual progression classes. While they have different abilities, they fulfill the same function. It doesn’t matter to me whether it is mindmage, cerebremancer (of either type) but it should be one or the other. You could even have all three in play depending on the character, but taking any one should block off the others.
Below is probably the last of them I’m going to make for a bit. I’m getting pretty burned out.
Lalali-Puy
Female stage 3 athasian dragon defiler 8/psion (egoist) 5/true cerebremancer 14/thrallherd 10/evolved paragon 7
CE large dragon (advanced being, augmented humanoid, psionic, shapechanger)
Init +10 Senses darkvision 60ft., low light vision., scent; Listen +40 Spot +40
Languages All; polyglot,
AC 21 (-1 size, +10 dex, +2 natural), touch 19, flat-footed 11
hp 659 (44 HD, 37d4+444 plus 7d10+84); fast healing 5; DR 15/magic
Immune disease, poison, stunning
Fort +36, Ref +34, Will +33
Speed 30 ft.
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Melee Spear +57/+52/+47/+42 (1d6+14)
Base Atk +44; Grp +66
Atk Options Dragon Magic, Empower Power, Extend Power, Exception Beckons, Genocidal Focus, Improved Augment Summoning, Maximize Power, Metapotency(empower spell/power), Quicken Power, Raze Feats (Controlled Raze, Distant Raze), Soma Summons
Special Actions Focused Components, Psionic Meditation,
Combat Gear
Psionic Enchantments Known (Require expenditure of both an epic spell slot and an epic power slot) (CL 44):
extradimensional vault ( can call using correspond), impenetrable inertial barrier, indelible psionic signature, mass quintessence,
Epic Spells/Day 4; Epic Spells Known (CL 44):
crown of vermin (DC 40) , epic mage armor, mass frog, nailed to the sky (DC 40) , storm of icy death, soul dominion (DC 37) , superb dispelling, verdigris (DC 40)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 44): DC 27+spell level; DC 30+spell level for conjuration spells
4/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2
17th— empowered maximized quickened greater shout (DC 35), extended maximized quickened summon monster 1X
16th— empowered extended maximized quickened acid fog, maximized quickened time stop
15th— empowered maximized quickened groundflame (DC 36) , empowered quickened summon monster 1X
14th— empowered quickened incendiary cloud, empowered quickened horrid wilting
13th— empowered quickened delayed blast fireball (DC 34) , quickened power word kill, quickened time stop,
12th— maximized summon monster 1X, quickened maze, quickened summon natures ally V111(animals only)
11th— empowered maximized chain lightning (DC 33) , empowered summon monster 1X, maximized polar ray
10th— empowered horrid wilting (DC 35) , extended summon elemental monolith, quickened greater dispel magic
9th— gate, shambler, summon monster 1X, time stop (2) , wail of the banshee (DC 36), wish
8th— control plants (DC 35) , mind blank, polymorph any object (DC 35), prismatic wall (DC 35) , quickened solid fog, summon nature’s ally V111 (animals only), sunburst (DC 35)
7th— animate plants, control weather, delayed blast fireball (DC 34) , finger of death (DC 34) , greater scrying (DC 34), project image (DC 34) , quickened slow (DC 30) ,
6th— acid fog, antilife shell, greater dispel magic (2) , groundflame (DC 36), summon monster V1, true seeing,
5th— animal growth, baleful polymorph, cloudkill (DC 35) , commune with nature, major creation, mind fog, quietstorm, wall of thorns
4th— black tentacles, command plants (DC 31), greater invisibility, solid fog, summon nature’s ally 1V (animals only), scrying (DC 31) touch the black (DC 31), wall of ice,
3rd— dispel magic, dominate animal (DC 30) , lightning bolt (DC 30), plant growth, protection from energy (2) , slow (DC 30) , stinking cloud (DC 33)
2nd— barkskin, glitterdust (DC 32), mirror image (2) , pyrotechnics (DC 29) , see invisibility, scorching ray, web (DC 32)
1st— alarm, cooling canopy, entangle (2)(DC 28) , identify, magic missile (2) , shield, speak with animals
0th— detect magic (2), read magic (2)
Epic Powers/Day 4; Epic Powers Known (ML 44):
beast mastery (DC 37) , epic schism, psionic kinetic control
Power Points/Day 513; Psion Powers Known (ML 44) DC 27+Power Level
9th— affinity field (DC 36) , assimilate (DC 36) , greater metamorphosis
8th— bend reality, fusion, psionic greater teleport, true metabolism
7th— energy conversion, fission, ultrablast (DC 34)
6th— aura alteration, psionic disintegrate (DC 33) , psionic restoration, psychometry
5th— ethereal agent, psionic revivify, restore extremity
4th— aura sight, correspond, metamorphosis, psionic divination, psionic dominate (DC 31) ,
3rd— dispel psionics, ectoplasmic form, hustle, psionic blink, telekinetic force,
2nd— concentrate water, concussion blast, detect life, empathetic transfer, energy stun (DC 29) , read thoughts (DC 29) ,
1st— control flames (DC 28) , defensive precognition, detect psionics, mindlink, psionic charm (DC 28) , psychic tracking, vigor
Abilities Str 38 (+14), Dex 30 (+10), Con 34 (+12), Int 44 (+17), Wis 28 (+9), Cha 40 (+15)
SQ ageless, change shape (small, medium, or large humanoid), elemental energy vortex, meta-crafting, meta-mastery, perfectly focused, self-sustaining, twofold master
Salient Feats Advanced Being Apotheosis, Advanced Being Exaltation, Advanced Being Skill Affinity, Advanced Being Spell Capacity, Essence Integration, Floating Feats (Domain Magic (2), Controlled Raze, Distant Raze) Mystical Reservoir (6,600 XP), Recuperation, Soma Summons
Epic Feats Arcane Memoryb, Domain Magic (Animal, Plant)b, Epic Manifesting, Epic Practiced Manifester, Epic Practiced Spellcaster, Epic Spell Focus (conjuration), Epic Spellcasting, Epic Thrallherdb, Exceptional Beckonsb, Improved Augment Summoningb, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Legendary Thrallherd, Metapotency (Empower Spell), Polyglotb, Psiotheurgy
Feats Controlled Razeb, Craft Universal Itemb, Craft Wondrous Itemb, Distant Razeb, Dragon Magicb, Empower Powerb, Empower Spell, Eschew Materialsb, Expanded Knowledge ( mindlink, read thoughts) b, Extend Powerb, Extend Spell, Greater Spell Focus (conjuration), Maximize Powerb , Maximize Spellb, Metamorphic Transfer, Pacticed Manifesterb, Practiced Spellcaster, Psionic Meditation, Quicken Powerb, Quicken Spellb, Scribe Scrollb, Spell Focus (conjuration),
Skills Autohypnosis 20(+52), Bluff 47(+86), Concentration 20(+54), Diplomacy 47(+86), Intimidate 20(+59), Knowledge [Arcana 47(+86), History 20(+59), Nature 20(+59), Psionics 47(+86), Psiotheurgy 47(no check), Religion 20(+59), The Planes 20(+59)], Listen 10(+40), Perform (dance) 5(+37), Psicraft 47(+86), Search 10 (+40), Sense Motive 47(+80), Spellcraft 47(+86, +133 for casting psionic enchantments), Spot 10(+40),
Advanced Being Skill Affinity makes all skills class skills and gives a +22 Advanced Being bonus to all skills.
Possessions combat gear plus _,
Spellbook spells prepared plus all
Metamorphoses Anoint the Champion. Dragon 2-3, gained Arcane Memory as a bonus feat
Epic Thrallherd Benefits with Feats. Score=70
40,000 1st
4,000 2nd
2,000 3rd
1,000 4th
500 5th
250 6th
130 7th
70 8th
40 9th
20 10th
10 11th
Thralls = levels 40 and 38
1 Like
Great work. I wish there was a way we could automate this process a bit. The biggest mistake for 3.5 was not having it entirely integrated into a digital tabletop.
Could one of Lalali-Puy’s thralls be a spirit of the land?
1 Like
I don’t see why not.
1 Like
Having a spirit of the land thrall would play well with Lalali-Puy’s guise as a forest goddess. The spirit of the land’s ability to create water and control weather at will may account for Gulg’s relatively lush ecology.
1 Like
My thoughts exactly.
1 Like
“Lalali-Puy isn’t a forest goddess, she is a defiler” - Veiled Alliance.
Then enter Lalali-Puy’s shill, the thrall spirit of the land. The spirit of the land hoodwinks all the local druids. The spirit of the land knows its wrong, but it just can’t help itself.
1 Like
Perfection. What do you think about my build above? Does it match how you perceive her statistics and powers?
1 Like
I was just going through it line by line. Looks good to me. I notice that you selected Soma Summons - perfect for Lalali-Puy. Lalali-Puy is the Jim Jones of Gulg, and now her stats actually reflect that.
1 Like
And thanks - seeing these statblocks helps me visualize how it will actually work in play. The power level of the SMs is just right, in my opinion. The framework is now mostly complete. I am going to keep doing minor revisions, and improve the fluff. Hopefully I will be able to publish the finished work soon.
1 Like
You’re welcome. Having these rules for advanced beings is great!
1 Like
I got a lot of inspiration for this work from The Gates of Hell, by Dicefreaks Publishing. They saw that the outsiders of the Hells, particularly their leadership, were pushovers for PCs and they remedied it. The fluff is great, too.
1 Like
Looking forward to it.
Edit: Do you have any ideas or rules for Avangions? I could offer suggestions if you like.
1 Like
You mean the specific metamorphosis spells?
1 Like
In part, but more generally I was curious as to what, if any, general changes that you were planning on making to Avangions. I know you wanted to make them outsiders, for example. Are there any other major changes being planned?
1 Like
Perhaps the solution is to simply create an Avangion type. So the type could be Avangion, the subtype Advanced Being (just like Dragon+ Advanced Being). But I don’t know. Flavor wise the Abberation type applied to avangions in Legends of Athas puts them at odds with the many anti abberation prestige classes and abilities in D&D lore. Are avangions really kin to beholders, mind flayers, and the creatures of the far realm? What type do you think they should be?
1 Like
Warning: Long post.
I see arguments for Aberration, Fey, and Outsider:
Outsider: I’m not a huge fan of this one, honestly. Athas has no gods currently, and arcane magic turning someone into an actual divine being is…odd to say the least. I like the idea that the magic tries very hard to do so however. Avangion’s to me are sort of arcane angels or Phoenix’s, but the fundamentally different source of their power, taken from the land and their own complex nature, should make them feel very different, just like how the original humanoid, wingless, regenerating, godlike athasian dragon felt different from dragons in other d&d worlds.
That said, I do see that the whole disappearing thing and aspects of their aura just screams outsider. Clearly, the intention was angelic. But frankly I feel that was lazy design, as was some of the changes 2e did to athasian dragons in dragon kings and defilers and preservers (and don’t get me started on the lore vs game mechanics version of dragons life draining to power magic issue)
Aberration: This one is a bit of a personal opinion. I agree, the knee jerk reaction is to double take and ask “who decided this”, but from a deeper lore perspective in how I treat Avangions it actually makes more sense than it seems. An Avangion becomes a kind of arcane angel, a magical and psionic super organism that is a living well of life energy, and is perhaps related to life shaping, as are dragons. As an otherworldly feeling entity, created by the unnatural but connected to nature power that is arcane magic on athas, Aberration can actually make sense. Unnatural is the key word. Avangions can restore the land and water and heal the people but they are no closer to being natural creatures truly native to the land, or any land, than Borys or Rajaat. But you are right, It can have weird interactions.
Fey: Pyreen are fey, and while Avangion’s ain’t technically druids, their powers should come close, very close, to touching, connected with the land and their own life force as they are. Fey works for them, in terms of becoming otherworldly yet land connected forces better than outsider does. It can give them a divine flavor without truly needing divinity.
My main objection is how it sort of makes them trample over epic druid transformations. But if I’m being honest, that’s not much of an objections because I hate how in 2e all a cleric or druid had to do to be as powerful (or nearly so) as a dragon or avangion was go up in level. Where the hell were those powers coming from, what with a lack of tremendously powerful cosmic forces to grant them? It cheapened the difficulty and complexity of the dragon and avangion transformation, and it made no sense how a 30 level clerical elemental or spirit initiate was far, far stronger than the chosen high priests of greater deities in other worlds.
My problem with making an Avangion type is that no other advanced beings have a type of their own, and I think that if that route is taken then athasian dragons, being different as they are from dragons of other worlds, should also have a unique type.
One final note: As far as appearance goes, I go by the Defiler’s and Preserver’s pictures, and make it never quite lose it’s limbs (so closer to the middle transformations), and possibly get more wings on top of wings, a bit like how many biblical angels were described as actually alien and horrible yet beautiful to behold (another reason for aberration or fey). Alternately, I go a more Phoenix like route, but that requires some serious shifting in appearance (and then I would do outsider).
1 Like
Good post. I am actually OK with advanced beings of any of those types. I’ll list up types which I think could become advanced beings.
Dragon, fey, aberration, elemental, giant, outsider.
I call these the higher order types. These types are suitable for metamorphosis - both preserver and defiler metamorphosis, actually. The reason why defilers are dragon type is tradition, not a rule.
So if you want to go with another type for your defiler or preserver, go ahead. A fey, aberration or outsider ‘avangion’? Sure, why not. Perhaps if you learn the preserver metamorphosis spell from Oronis, you will be an aberration. I suspect that both Oronis and Daskinor are both aberrations (via altered beast salient feat), which accounts the peace in the North (although one is defiler and the other preserver). Lalali-Puy might even be a fey. There is no lore problem with that as there are plenty of wicked fey in the lore.
So let’s say you’ve got a preserver that goes the elemental route. He wants to be a physical sort rather than an arcane angel, so he bases his metamorphosis on the Dragon metamorphosis (not killing anyone or defiling, of course). His breath weapon is instead a cone of elemental energy coming from his hands. Alternatively, perhaps he is a defiler.
The advanced being subtype, which I must expand on soon, makes up for any deficiencies in these types.
What do you think?
1 Like
I agree, but we’re still left with the problem of what the “base (or assumed base)” type of the metamorphosis is. I’ve said pretty much everything I have on that topic, so I guess it’s up to you how you want to spin it.
1 Like
If Oronis is an aberration, then aberration.
1 Like