Epic Athas 3.5 by redking (WIP)

Rules 3rd Edition D&D or Pathfinder
#141

Making adjustments to some of the salient feats. Making them more rational, while adding utility to the Psiotheurgy skill.

Advanced Being Skill Affinity [Advanced Being]

An advanced being with this feat finds within its own nature the effortless use of skills, the advanced being able to use skills to a high degree of proficiency with only a small amount of knowledge. Its abilities are boosted when making checks.

Prerequisites: Advanced being

Benefit: The Advanced Being receives an psiotheurgy bonus to all skill checks equal the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. Additionally, it the advanced being adds its Psiotheurgy ability modifier to ability checks or opposed ability checks. For example, an advanced being with 30 ranks in Psiotheurgy gets a psiotheurgy bonus of +10 to skill checks, and an untyped +10 bonus to opposed ability checks in addition to its normal bonuses (if any). Additionally, all skills are considered class skills for the advanced being.
Note: Because this is a psiotheurgy bonus, this bonus overlaps (does not stack) with the psiotheurgy bonus for casting an epic spell as a psionic enchantment.

Rule Undead [Advanced Being]

Creatures that can be turned or rebuked are in awe of the advanced being. The advanced being turns or rebukes creatures with ease.

Prerequisites: Advanced being, ability to turn or rebuke creatures

Benefit: The Advanced Being receives a psiotheurgy bonus to Effective Turning Level equal to the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score.

Evolved Leader [Advanced Being]

An advanced being has leadership qualities far beyond ordinary creatures. Creatures are naturally drawn to the advanced being.

Prerequisites: A leadership score.

Benefit: The Advanced Being receives a psiotheurgy bonus to its leadership score equal to the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score.

EDIT 1: Updated mystical reservoir. 150XP per level per day is too generous, and lessens the worth of bolster mystical reservoir. Reduced to 100XP per level. Bolster remains the same at 25XP, which is 1/4 of mystical reservoir.

Mystical Reservoir [Advanced Being]

As an advanced being your well of power is deep indeed. You can draw on this well of power to fuel spells, powers, and magical item creation.

Prerequisites: Advanced being

Benefit: An XP cushion of 100XP per character level per day to be used for spellcasting or psionic manifesting costs, whether epic or non-epic. The mystical reservoir allows for item creation equal to 100XP per character level per month.

EDIT 2: New salient feat.

Focused Spell Power [Advanced Being] [Psionic Enchantment]

Through hard training and inclination as an advanced being, you have a strong affinity for spells from your chosen school.

Prerequisites: Advanced being. Epic spell focus the school selected.

Benefit: You gain a bonus that increases his effective caster level for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks equal to the ability modifier of its Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. For example, an advanced being with a caster level of 30 and 30 ranks in Psiotheurgy gets a psiotheurgy bonus of +10 to caster level in the school of magic selected, thus having a caster level of 40 in that school.

Special: You can choose this feat more than once, selecting another school of magic as detailed in the prerequisites.

EDIT 3: An option for less intelligent advanced beings, such as a dragon that wants a stronger focus on combat.

Psiotheurgic Spellcaster [Advanced Being] [Psionic Enchantment]

Psiotheurgy is the focus of your arcane abilities instead of intelligence or charisma (or other applicable ability score).

Prerequisites: Advanced being. Intelligence 25 OR Charisma 25 (or applicable ability score).

Benefit: For the purpose of determining bonus spells per day and maximum spell level, your primary spellcasting ability is the Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. If you have more than one arcane spellcasting class, the bonus applies to only one of those classes. Your spell save DCs are not affected by this change.

Special: You may take this feat more than once to apply to a different arcane spellcasting class.

Psiotheurgic Manifester [Advanced Being] [Psionic Enchantment]

Psiotheurgy is the focus of your psionic abilities instead of intelligence or charisma (or other applicable ability score).

Prerequisites: Advanced being. Intelligence 25 OR Charisma 25 (or applicable ability score).

Benefit: For the purpose of determining bonus power points per day, your primary manifesting ability is the Psiotheurgy skill, as if Psiotheurgy was an ability score. If you have more than one manifesting class, the bonus applies to only one of those classes. Your power save DCs are not affected by this change.

Special: You may take this feat more than once to apply to a different manifesting class.

EDIT 4: With these changes, it stands to reason that the progression of salient feats should be linked to ranks in psiotheurgy rather than level. My original intention was to not break the level system, but keep the strength of the advanced beings connected to their overall character level - unlike the Legends of Athas version, which front loads all of the SM abilities and robs all other advanced beings. Linking to psiotheurgy ranks accomplishes the same thing, but because ranks can be 3 ranks above character level, this nets the advanced beings an additional salient feat. Also a good thing since now there are more salient feats, advanced being exaltation is split into two feats, and so on. Will implement this change soon.

#142

Weekend and the start of the work week we’re brutal; glad to see the work is continuing!

Turning a skill into an ability to use a modifier feels clunky. I’ll reread the text of the relevant feat soon, but it grants access to the new Psiotheurgy skill. Like other feats based on skills, all the ones you want to grant bonuses to should have Psiotheurgy # Ranks, [some relevant feature, like turn undead for the turn undead feat].

Then, these other feats grant the untyped bonus that’s equal to the ability score modifier related to the relevant feature. So, for Rule Undead, you make the requirements the Psiotheurgy skill Ranks 33, and turn/rebuke undead. The feat grants an untyped bonus to turn checks equal to your Charisma modifier.

Alternately, because it is a blend of magic and psionics, the feats could instead grant an untyped bonus of the character’s casting/manifesting stat, whichever is lower.

Add a second feat Advanced Psiotheurgy, that says you can use the modifier of your casting/manifesting stat, whichever is higher - for all Psiotheurgy feats.

Create a new skill block for Psiotheurgy, and make it (Trained Only).

Think about Psionic Enchanter (Ex) as a class feature or something acquired by metamorphosis (will think more on this), and then list the things like gentle metamorphosis under it like the Bard uses the Perform Skill (because those abilities are based on Bardic Music and Skill Ranks).

Then everything is neatly buttoned up with existing framework.

Thoughts?

#143

The fire rises!

Only if there is reason to restrict a salient feat to above a certain level. I think we know that psiotheurgy is going to be maxed out anyway.

This is exactly what I was trying to avoid with keying it to half character level initially. One of my very early drafts many years ago did exactly that. Think about the implications of it. That is why I rejected it. If Psiotheurgy 33 is the prerequisite for rule undead, then I must be determined to make sure that the PC/NPC is not getting rule undead until level 31.

What I am getting at with Psiotheurgic Spellcaster/Manifester is a kind of devil’s bargain. The advanced being can stop at Int 25 and still be able to cast higher level spells, but their save DCs do not increase along with them. It allows certain types of builds. Given how Tithian thought of Borys’ psionic abilities, Borys is very likely to have those two feats. Others on this site interpreted Tithians comments as Borys being a psychic warrior.

I don’t follow that one. You’ll have to elaborate.

Well, you need a feat to get it anyway. You must just make it available at level 1 to certain characters?

Psionic enchantment is a fuzzy area. Even in the novels, it is conflated with dragon magic. I suppose strictly speaking psionic enchantment should be epic spells with a psionic component. But then Legends of Athas made it something else. I have tried to reconcile it, without taking anything away. As for gentle metamorphosis, it is limited by the number of skill ranks. Once every 12 ranks. Metamorphose yourself to advanced being is 24 ranks. Metamorphose some to advanced being is 63 ranks. True breed at 50 ranks.

I am trying to keep aspects of metamorphosis and salient feats separate.

With metamorphosis you can jump ahead in certain ways, but in very different ways to the salient feats. The salient feats link with character level, so there are two different streams of advanced being advancement.

EDIT 1: I am not dogmatic about the psiotheurgy thing, as long as I can accomplish the same thing with the same numerical results. For example, I could do something like this.

Calculate the sum of your character level +3 and consult this table. You receive the corresponding bonus to X.

charlev
charlev208×513 21.9 KB

#144

In my head this makes sense. Truespeak is trained only and open to any character as cross class. Truespeak Training makes it a class skill and retros skill point investment. If all of the uses of the skill Psitheurgy begin with 24 Ranks, who cares if others invest skill points cc into the skill at level 1, provided they find a teacher (SM’s and other AB’s, which is thematically appropriate).

It also leaves it open to the divine classes who don’t get the lift from AB and metamorphosis spells.

Let me kick around the rest and see if I can make sense of the issue you had on your older design. It looks like we’re trying to reconcile:

  1. what should psionic enchantments be?
  2. what represents knowledge of PE?
  3. what applications are there of PE?
  4. what mechanics enhance/alter PE?
  5. what advantage do AB’s get/have access to above non-AB’s?
  6. can all of this maintain the feel of the original intent?
1 Like
#145

Also in my random thoughts this weekend was testing the power of Advanced Beings. In my head, this would be a match between a 31st level straight psi and a 31st level straight Defiler vs a 31st level AB with their first level of Evolved Paragon.

By straight, I mean only psi classes and only wiz classes.

Telepath 5/Thrallherd 10/Psiologist 10/MotW 5/Mindbender 1

Defiler 10/Arch Defiler 10/XYZ x/ABC y

Vs.

Defiler 10/Shaper 5/Athasian Cerebremancer 10/MotW 5/Evolved Paragon 1

My hypothesis is that the EP will wipe the floor with the other 2, but it’s untested. To be in line with the CR system, I guess we should see if a party of 4 could defeat the AB with using only 1/4 of its resources.

1 Like
#146

Truespeak is usable throughout though. I don’t really have an issue with it in the sense that it doesn’t damage any balance or whatever, but it is tough to explain what exactly these characters are learning with psiotheurgy in that case.

An alternative is to refluff psiotheurgy. Instead its not psiotheurgy at all, but the ultimate in knowledge. What, you ask? Knowledge (self).

Or simply drop it altogether and construct a score, similar to the leadership score. In this, you have an Evolution Score that is equal to your character level +3 and +1 for each defiler or preserver metamophosis rank you have. Then you consult the table for the relevant bonus.

Honestly, it doesn’t matter to me. Just as long as it leads to a satisfactory outcome. ABs have plentiful skill points so it isn’t even about costing the skills.

#147

Oooooooo I kinda like this idea.

This was an issue that came to mind this morning. Most will put their +20 into Int, effectively giving another 10 skill points per level, making skill ranks laughably easy to obtain and eliminating much of the balance that system attempts.

Another quick question, to help me visualize scale: what level range do you envision the SM’s to be?

1 Like
#148

I’d expect that they would have a good chance assuming an assassination kind of scenario. How many metamorphosis has your AB gone through? This is important, because it will determine a lot of how tough they are. If they are going up against this guy at 5th level of metamophosis -

Capture
Capture281×793 48.1 KB

He’s got a bunch of advantages. Check out my defiler metamophosis for details.

Same as 2E! Rule of thumb is 2E 21st level dragon is 41st level, metamorphosis rank 1 - for example, Kalak. Borys is 50, rank 10. EDIT: 2E’s Beyond The Prism Pentad puts Hamanu and Lalai-Puy at 23rd level, and Nibenay at 24th level. So the rule of thumb would say that they are Hamanu and the Oba are 43rd level, 3rd rank dragon, and Nibenay is 44th level, 4th rank dragon. That said, the rule of thumb isn’t a straight jacket and it is particular to the SMs. You know that this Graytch guy isn’t boasting 40+ levels.

I think I will implement the evolution score.

1 Like
#149

Love the trading cards, wish I still had them! Was this in the 3rd year printing or the 2nd.

One of the best parts of 3.5 (that isn’t the best way to translate to DS because of limited resources) is the wealth system. Most resources can be applied to spell research and development costs, so I’d cap the AB at WBL for stage of metamorphosis.

2E was crazy on items; I remember my 7th level wizard in non-DS having protective items that put AC at -4. :rofl:

1 Like
#150

1993 set. Pretty sure I had it too. Somehow they got lost/disappeared. I had all three sets.

The first defiler metamorphosis spell has a focus structure costing 5 million Cp. Costs for every metamorphosis after the first can be mitigated by mystical reservoir combined with psionic true creation to produce raw materials. But it takes time. How will you handle it by WBL?

Negative numbers for AC. The good old days. THAC0. :rofl:

Dark Sun is uniquely suited to 3.5e. Its a pity that we weren’t able to do more with it back in the day. I was a latecomer to 3.5, however. I was a 2E holdout until around 2007.

#151

Honestly, I’ll eyeball it at the beginning, since it’s the exercise that exposes pain points in design. They can’t cast the first spell until level 27, so it’s reasonable to assume they’ve researched the second by 31, and maybe the third. Likely, the AB won’t be able to fund the second structure at that point for IV (unless I’m reading currency conversions wrong). If the results are close, then it’s examining the additional benefits of the next stage. It’s a few million gp equivalent.

On a tangent, SM’s should have the Landlord feat that they use almost exclusively to fund their required structures (or a new, made up feat that tracks). Makes sense why they have to control cities and populations rather than single-minded pursuit of their transformation.

I’m finding the dust-up over THAC0 on d&d pages hilarious. I didn’t know any different, so it was just what it was. Played in a 2E game through like 2011, and love 3.5. The options are just endless.

1 Like
#152

If I recall correctly, one ceramic piece is equal to a gold piece (in other settings) and gold (on Athas) is worth more. I forget the exact conversion right now.

For the focus structures, I kept the prices the same as Legends of Athas. I think the high costs make the metamorphosis solidly within the realm of DM fiat. So with that said, if the DM says yes you should get the structure and keep your WBL (perhaps using WBL for the other components of the spell).

Once you have mystical reservoir, WBL breaks (on purpose). The SMs are dealing with constant resource shortages of everything, so it isn’t quite the advantage that it would be in other settings.

That feat is for strongholds. No big deal but it’s not the intention of the feat.

I have speculated that a city without an SM will eventually collapse because the SM provides utility in the form of spellcasting templars that provide order, and the SM itself that can in the worst case scenario start conjuring resources up. Not nearly enough to provide for all but a fraction of their population, but perhaps enough to make a difference.

Imagine the situation of Hamanu during the ‘iron crisis’ when Tyr stopped exporting iron. Urik’s obsidian mining industry is one of its big earners, and iron is essential for work in that industry. Urik faces shutdowns of obsidian quarries because of lack of iron. Hamanu steps in to bridge the gap. He’s 43rd level and has mystical reservoir, netting him 4300 XP a day with which to work. Hamanu manifests psionic true creation every day, conjuring forth 4300 Cp worth of iron (which isn’t much) every day. Now Hamanu has no XP left for any other activity. An angry Hamanu orders his armies to mobilize.

In the same way I am sure Hamanu or any advanced being will have no trouble funding their own metamorphosis. The issue is time and opportunity cost.

1 Like
#153

I just looked up Epic WBL and found the following link. Looks like level 33 (or 32 with practically no other wealth) would be the first level to have resources for a focus structure. I’ll back into the development costs to see where a level 33 character would be on financing his metamorphosis, and start there.

I’ll adjust my thought experiment to start at level 33 and not 31. :thinking:

1 Like
#154

To put my tale about Hamanu using psionic true creation into context, although psionic true creation mentions 1 XP = 1 Gp, when manifested on Athas it’s 1 Cp instead. According to Trade Lords, 1 pound of iron is 1 Gp (meaning 100 Cp). Metal is expensive on Athas. So with all Hamanu’s power, all he is producing is 43 pounds of iron a day in an emergency. He could produce a lot more of non metallic resources, however.

1 Like
#155

This is where the game falls apart from a playability standpoint, like nijineko referenced above.

Whoever goes first wins unless there are overpowering odds, and then I throw up my hands and go ‘dammit, someone is going to min/max initiative, and then it’s celerities and schisms and contingencies.’ I’m determined to see this round through, though! :rofl:

1 Like
#156

Don’t forget fission. That’s pretty powerful as well.

Speaking of initiative, I have an advanced being version as an epic feat. It requires being an advanced being but isn’t a salient feat. It probably guarantees the advanced being going first, if that wasn’t a fait accompli in the first place.

Apparently 3.5 breaks well before epic levels. All I can say is that a gentleman’s agreement is required to keep the game functioning at that level.

#157

Because I will be implementing an evolution score, Evolved Paragon will change to give a +3 to evolution score every 10 levels instead of the salient feat directly. This will give a minor buff to some of the other bonuses connected to the evolution score.

I may make a change to psiotheurgy, making it a pseudo skill akin to secular authority (see DS3 Core Rules). Instead of taking ranks in psiotheurgy, you get psiotheurgy automatically as a combination between psicraft and spellcraft. Your psiotheurgy skill ranks = the lower of psicraft and spellcraft.

EDIT 1: New psiotheurgy.

Psiotheurgy

Psiotheurgy is an aggregate of Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (psionics), which is psionic enchantment as a field of study. Psiotheurgy enhances the characters’ ability to use metamorphosis magic and epic spells when those spells are bolstered by expending an epic power slot at the same time.

Prerequisite: Epic spellcasting, epic manifesting, Spellcraft 24 ranks. Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks. Psicraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks. Avangion magic OR dragon magic.

Acquisition: This feat is granted automatically when all the prerequisites are met. This feat may not be retrained by any means.

Benefit: This feat grants four new uses for the Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (psionics) skill. Your apparent ranks in psiotheurgy are equal to the lower of your Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (psionics) skills.

Additional benefit for casters of metamorphosis: A certain number of ranks (milestones) of psiotheurgy provides new abilities relating to the casting of metamorphosis.

Metamorphose Advanced Being (Ex): At 24 ranks you can use the metamorphosis seed to apply the advanced being trait to yourself. At 63 ranks, you can apply the advanced being trait to others using the metamorphosis seed.

Gentle Metamorphosis (Ex): You can use the metamorphosis spell on yourself without the spell counting towards the maximum 10 uses of metamorphosis that a single creature can withstand. When casting gentle metamorphosis, you may not use a focus structure (a singular exception for the Pristine Tower). You can cast one additional metamorphosis on or yourself without counting against the ten time limit once for every 12 ranks you have in this skill. Metamorphosis spells cast on other creatures must be via the gentle metamorphosis ability (and thus limited by the number of times an individual creature can receive a gentle metamorphosis based on your ranks in the skill).

True Breed (Ex): You can metamorphose a creature (such as a human) using the metamorphosis spell in conjunction with Gentle Metamorphosis, adding up to +5 CR to the creature. The creature is then able to breed true if matched with another creature so metamorphosed. For example, two humans are metamorphosed, and given the advanced simple template. Their children will carry the same traits as their metamorphosed human parents, meaning that they too will have the advanced simple template, while a cross breed between a normal human and a True Breed human will produce a normal human. A True Breed descendant was affected by Gentle Metamorphosis counts towards the maximum CR, so a True Breed descendant that has already added +5 CR cannot be further affected by the True Breed ability. This ability is gained at rank 50.

Epic Spells: This skill grants knowledge of magical and psionic manipulation. There are no skill checks for this skill. Each rank in this skill provides +1 psiotheurgy bonus to Spellcraft checks of epic spells using the if an epic power slot is expended while casting the epic spell.

EDIT 2: I am still cleaning up the above. It will be much more streamlined and easily comprehensible, I hope.

1 Like
#158

‘Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.‘

I was walking through opening tactics in my hypothetical ambush of Farcluun, and reread antimagic field. How do we want to rule on this?

1 Like
#159

Farcluun is affected by antimagic field. Doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have countermeasures against it however.

#160

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again… D&D does not break at high levels. It does exactly what it is intended to do, and what it was designed to do. It is when people don’t do what the game designers anticipate that there is a sense of dissonance and thus people claim (incorrectly) that the game broke.

The game was designed to transform into a different kind of game at different levels.

At low levels it is a dungeon crawl and wilderness exploration game.

At mid levels it is a game of intrigue.

At mid to high levels, it is a war game where you are sponsoring low level adventurers to explore places while you defend your base and sack other people’s bases.

At high levels it is an epic game of save the world and interdimensional politics with the fate of life and afterlife on the line.

People who try to play D&D the same way at all levels are technically “doing it wrong”, and of course the game doesn’t work like that! It wasn’t designed to by Gygax and Arneson.

And since in subsequent editions of D&D, the core assumptions the creators assumed have been more or less preserved, the game still works that way, and yet virtually no one actually plays it as designed. D&D never was a universal game design, it had a very specific progression paradigm and playstyle built in. Medieval to high fantasy to epic and godhood.

You want universal? Go play GURPS. Lol.
(Did D&D successfully pull off skillfully what it was trying to? That’s a different question!)

1 Like