Epic Athas 3.5 by redking (WIP)

Rules 3rd Edition D&D or Pathfinder
#121

Got it, so now I can use Improved Spell Capacity [Epic] to gain access to higher level spells on a 2 for 1 because of Higher Order Spellcasting. Makes sense to me now. I thought there was some duplication in the way I was reading it. This new naming convention and how it interacts with the epic feat makes more sense.

EDIT: Now I have some new toys to break.

Also in the 10 level UM variant of ACere, there are gaps to Evolved Paragon from my seamless attempt test case. It is very feat starved. Iā€™ll post that one soon, and with these updates from today.

Have to create a psion now to see if MotW works as intended.

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#122

Its on me. Before it was a replacement for ISC, now it is an addition to ISC but the name was the same. What do you think of it now? Its worth it, right? But not so worth it that you will immediately dismiss other options.

Oh damn. I think done messed up and misread my own table. You asked me ā€œAm I right in only the Salient feat offers bonus spells per INT and the 1 additional spell per level?ā€

Yes. You were right, actually. My table was modelled after the divine spellcasting table. The divine table is inclusive of the extra spell per level. So I really messed up when I wrote ā€œThat means you have 1+ 2 for 10th and 11th level spells bothā€.

Its 1+1 and already included in the table as you correctly stated.

#123

Definitely worth it, and more in line with other choices.

Advanced Being Exaltation seems to be the only stand-out choice at 22HD. Less so for an avangion if we are sticking with racial HD, as aberrations suck compared to dragons.

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#124

Not exactly. This salient feat is not meant to discriminate.

Advanced Being Exaltation [Advanced Being]

The change into an advanced being gives it advantages unknown to all except the mightiest creatures of the outer planes.

Prerequisites: Advanced being

Benefit: Class levels for advanced being are treated like racial hit dice for BAB and Saves. Recalculate the advanced beingā€™s Base Attack Bonus and Saves. The advanced being now has full Base Attack Bonus and all good saves.

The emphasis is on advanced being, the trait, and not the type. Class levels are treated like racial hit dice, and the specifics are detailed.

#125

There are no feats left to be had. UM variant of ACere gets 2 feats in addition to stellar spellcasting/manifesting advancement, and some soso class features, capped with eschew materials at 10th level. Consider that a single classed wizard or psion gets only 1 feat per 5 levels (and the Acere will be benefitting from the first level feats on both the wizard and psion side).

You will probably need a higher level entry into EP. But I would ask you to consider how painful it was to do it in 2E. Its not even remotely comparable.

#126

Test Case 2

male stage I avangion Preserver 5/Nomad 2/Athasian Cerebremancer 10/Mind Mage 10/Evolved Paragon 1

LE Medium aberration (psionic)

Init +4+Dex; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; lifesense 60 ft.; Listen +0, Spot +0

Languages Common, Dwarvish, Tyrian; tongues

Aura detect good/evil/law/chaos, thoughts, discern lies 60 ft.

AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10

(+0 Dex, +0 natural)

hp 187.5+Con (28 HD)

Immune

Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +16

Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)

Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

Melee full attack mwk dagger +29/+24/+19/+14 1d4+Str (19-20/x2)

Ranged touch by spell +29+Dex

Base Atk +28; Grp +28+Str

Atk Options Avangion Magic, Augment Summoning, Harden Energy, Concussive Blast

Special Actions Focused Components, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Components, Psionic Reinforcement +2, Compensation, Force Touch, Painful Premonition, Psionic Reinforcement, Magical Reinforcement, Extend Spell/Power, Quicken Spell/Power

Combat Gear

Epic Spells/Day: 3; Epic Spells Known (CL 40th): Preserver Metamorphosis I, Preserver Metamorphosis II, Epic Simulacrum, Spellbook Tattoo

Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 38th, Conjuration [teleportation] CL 72nd):
11th- (3)
10th- (4)
9th- 1+4
8th- 2+4
7th- 3+4
6th- 4+5
5th- 4+5
4th- 4+5
3rd- 4+5
2nd- 4+6
1st- 4+6
0th- 4

Epic Powers/Day: 3, Epic Powers Known (ML 34th): time travel (CL 72nd)

Power Points/Day: 343+Int; Nomad Powers Known (ML 34th, Psychoportation ML 72nd):
9th:
8th:
7th:
6th:
5th:
4th:
3rd:
2nd:
1st:
0th:

Abilities Str 8+12, Dex 12+14, Con 14+16, Int 15+20+7+5+3, Wis 13+14+3, Cha 10+12+3

SQ ageless, meta-crafting, meta-mastery, perfectly focused, self-sustaining, twin wells same source,

Salient Feats Advanced Being Apotheosis, Advanced Being Exaltation, Higher Order Spellcasting, Floating Feats

Epic Feats Epic Manifesting, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Epic Practiced Spellcaster

Feats Craft Psionic Trinket, Craft Magic Trinket, Improved Initiative, Extend Power/Spell, Psionic Meditation, Practiced Manifester, Quicken Power/Spell, Craft Wand/Dorje, Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Psiotheurgist: Conjuration (teleportation), Avangion Magic, Harden Energy, Concussive Blast

Skills Psicraft 31 Ranks, Spellcraft 31 Ranks, KS: Arcana 31 Ranks, KS: Psionics 31 Ranks

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#127

Shenanigans/Observations, round 2:

  1. Standard Preserver entry to AC 4/1, then AC 10, Mind Mage 10, +1 Preserver, +1 Nomad, Evolved Paragon 1

  2. Yes, yes, I know, Dragon Magazine, but how else will I get the stop-gap CL? :rofl:

  3. Very tight on feats without the Avangion/Dragon Magic capstone on this version of AC and the extra metamagic/metapsionic feat.

  4. This is the earliest entry, due to being so many caster levels behind. 9ths arenā€™t picked up until ECL 23, making the first epic feat Epic Practiced Spellcaster, and the epic feats at 24 and 27 Epic Spellcasting and Epic Manifesting, casting Preserver Metamorphosis I at level 27, and taking Evolved Paragon 1 @ 28.

  5. Floating Feats is almost a requirement to help offset lack thereof earlier. I didnā€™t choose any because Iā€™m lazy.

  6. Hard to make a case for any other Salient Feat choice at 22HD than AB Exaltation; you could remove the Spellcasting route in exchange for Skills.

  7. No Innate spell loopholes. No 18th level spells.

  8. There is some room for customization without delays in reaching EP, by forgoing the Spell Focus, Augment Summoning, and Psiotheurgist feats for Path Dexter and some thematic feats for a preserver on the run, but nothing earth shattering.

EDIT(s) 9: Overall, much more reasonable. In running through the math, as long as the classes are full Manifester/full casting, ECL 27 as the earliest level to cast the first metamorphosis spell. It is the same as if one took Mind Mage. CL/ML will be very different. 4/1/10/Mindbender 1/MotW 5/Arch Defiler 6 would work as a ā€˜standard entryā€™.

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#128

This is good. Some familiar territory. Iā€™ll say to you what I said to BMdragon.

Also this.

Iā€™d be happy to add that capstone to UM ACere.

Is it the BAB or the saving throws that weighs more heavily?

I think there is some confusion here. Are you using psiotheugist from Dragon Magazine, which has exactly the same article name as my psiotheurgy feat but is different? And that accounts for your conjuration caster/manifester level?

When I first saw the psiotheurgy feats in Dragon Magazine, I said ā€œwowā€. That was years ago and I am still saying it.

EP is supposed to be a post epic PrC, but it is permissible in how you get there which is why it doesnā€™t have any hard limitations, like a set number of ranks for prerequisites. Perhaps it should. Because of the hockey stick effect you pointed out, the EP letā€™s these feat starved builds bounce back.

Can you elaborate a bit on your standard entry?

Edit: your standard entry has 9s on both sides and a CL/ML of 17, right?

#129

I think it would be a good capstone. My head is turning on whether or not to try to merge a little more into AC from MM. Iā€™ll kick that around in my head.

Early itā€™s the saves; spell DCā€™s vs other ABā€™s practically require it. BAB less so, though ā€˜yesterday I couldnā€™t hit a cistern fiend with a bucket, but after PM stage I, I can skip 4 rocks off its teeth!ā€™ is funny. It impacts rays and touch spells, and negates a lot of high level armor bonuses. Later itā€™s the HD. Racial HD at d12 maxed at Stage IV is huge, unless Iā€™ve misread that they hit die type doesnā€™t change. Also, hp is less important, but a couple hundred points difference is a difference.

Yes, the feat from Dragon Magazine that has the same name as your new one. They are frightening on anything with a respectable ML/CL. With the Salient Integrated Essence feat, they would be double HD. No one (should) use(s) these because they are ridiculous. Especially with Telepathy and epic schism.

Correct. Really Wizard 10/Psion 7/Athasian Cerebremancer 10 gets you there. You can spice it up with a couple of PrCā€™s, or switch the two base classes (7/10, respectively) depending on your preference.

#130

Sorry for skipping around, Iā€™m back to this one now. I think adding back Greater Psionic Endowment as a prereq, and eliminating the class feature language around the +2 to DC for Mastered Powers is a clean approach. Maybe add a line that says ā€˜mastered power focusā€™ also applies to Greater Psionic Endowment used on mastered powers. Then Greater PE and PE arenā€™t just feat taxes that never get used. The alternative is ā€˜when applying a feat to a mastered power would ordinarily require expenditure of your psionic focus, it doesnā€™tā€™. I donā€™t know off hand which other feats that would incorporate off hand, so it may only include PE/GPE.

Also, Mythic Exemplar has language in Complete Champion under skills that allows any four skills from a previous class list that might tighten up the skills section. It would inadvertently allow one to choose ACere to add Spellcraft to the list for class skills, but the more obvious choices are the various psions.

#131

They only get what is specified in the salient feat. Later on in the metamorphosis they can get an additional 12 HP per HD via the metamorphosis spell. If they are desperate for the HP, they can try to pack that in early or use a gentle metamorphosis to get it early. With that salient feat itā€™s saves and BAB only, which replace that given by the class.

I see where you are going with this. As long as there are no serious implications, I can do this. I think Iā€™ll mention Psionic Endowment and GPE but leave the prerequisites the same (meaning PE and skill focus) and drop the fortification Iā€™m exchange (Iā€™ll still probably call it fortification, however).

The skill list for MotW is already as good as psion. There is no reason to suggest this is a skill monkey class. If your character is human, the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny is a clean option (or Human Paragon from UA).

EDIT: Athasian Cerebremancer updated with dragon/avangion magic capstone.

EDIT 2: Updated master of the way. New mastered power fortification is as follows.

Mastered power fortification: You do not need to expend your psionic focus when using Psionic Endowment or Greater Psionic Endowment (if you have it) on a mastered power, but if you do expend your psionic focus, you add an additional 1 to the save DC of a mastered power that you manifest.

EDIT 3: Now I know why game designers require skills as prerequisites for prestige classes generally. By not having skills as a prerequisite for EP, a race to entry is sparked in the pursuit of absolute advantage. That was design error by me and I am learning about design all the time.

Since EP is a post epic PrC (or an epic+ PrC), it stands to reason that the earliest entry should be for characters already at 30th level, and the skills prerequisite should reflect this. Therefore, entry should require a skill of 33. That skill should probably be Psiotheurgy.

EDIT 4: Its not like I didnā€™t know. I had already sensibly implemented skill prerequisites for the Mindlord of Saragar PrC - another post epic PrC. That is 33 ranks in two skills.

EDIT 5: Advanced Being Exaltation needs to be split into two salient feats. Also, confusing verbiage is to be removed. Here is what I am thinking.

Advanced Being Attack [Advanced Being]

The change into an advanced being makes you able to attack foes relentlessly.

Prerequisites: Advanced being. Strength 30. Constitution 30.

Benefit: Your Base Attack Bonus now equals your HD. Recalculate your Base Attack Bonus. This replaces the Base Attack Bonus from your classes and racial HD (if you have any).

Advanced Being Vigor [Advanced Being]

The change into an advanced being has made you hardy.

Prerequisites: Advanced being. Wisdom 27. Dexterity 27. Constitution 27.

Benefit: All Saving Throws are now equal to your HD. Recalculate your Saving Throws. This replaces the Saving Throws from your classes and racial HD (if you have any).

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#132

Belated questionsā€¦

Being that the original Epic rules were in the DMG, and WotC decided that core books win whenever there is a conflict between core and non-core booksā€¦ does the Epic Level Handbook even technically exist, rules-wise?

Also, has anyone ever thought of building out the epic rules from the DMG rather than the ELH?

Finally, being that D&D was always intended from the beginning to exceed 20th level, what thoughts are there in making epic levels fun to play and challenge characters?

#133

The rules in the DMG are simply copied from ELH.

Itā€™s a huge challenge. The DM has to design adventures around characters with teleportation, powerful divination, and wishes. There is no easy answer.

#134

Even though the ELH 3.0 was published before the DMG 3.5, the new DMG effectively updated the epic rules. As a core book overrides sourcebook as per the primacy of source rules, plus 3.5 updated material overrides 3.0 as per the edition update rules, the 3.0 epic rules effectively no longer exist as a valid rulesetā€¦ technically.

Hence my original question.

In case this bothers you, I also offer an official sidestep: the SRD is still a valid source, as it is a separate update chain from 3.5ā€¦ effectively a different edition.

Though I am still curious on your thoughts on my original question. =D

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#135

The DMG rules are updates, true, but it doesnā€™t update the entire content of the ELH only part of it. If I recall correctly, most of the updated material is just epic progressions, and itā€™s basically the same. The parts of 3.0 not updated are still valid (subject to appropriate conversion).

Are you saying that there are substantive differences?

#136

I have seen it argued by some (and Iā€™m not saying I agree) that the removal of the rest of the epic content was a deliberate update on the part of 3.5, at least as epic content is concerned.

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#137

That seems quite baseless, since the ELH is used as the basis for epic content in a number of splatbooks printed in the 3.5 era.

Got any links to people making these arguments?

#138

I didnā€™t keep them. I was just curious as to your thoughts.

For myself, while I feel that seeds and other aspects of the epic rules need more definition, and in some cases tweaking, I am not in favor of de-epic-ifying psionics. Lol.

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#139

The only ELH rule that definitively bit the dust in 3.5e was the enhance item feat. I just looked it up. Ironically it was not even an epic feat.

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#140

That is most amusing, in an ironic sort of wayā€¦

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