Hard Criticism of 2nd Box: Moving on from the Expanded and Revised

It is with considerable regret that I have at long last settled to largely sideline many of the innovations introduced by Bill Slavicsek’s Expanded and Revised Dark Sun setting boxed set, which I typically refer to as “2nd Box”. I remember seeing it on the shelves for the first time and buying it with eager anticipation. Even then, I was a little off put by its style, presentation, and even some of its innovations, but my hunger for more Dark Sun quickly overcame these then mild criticisms.

Now, decades on, I am at last accepting to largely sideline 2nd Box. In reality, I have been for some time, but now this determination has crystallized into my policy. Whatever TSR’s reasons, I think the decision to take the helming of the campaign away from its original designers (Denning, Brown, Baker, Connors, King) and give it to an entirely new team led by Slavicsek was most unfortunate. This decision led to an awkward and inchoate turn in the campaign setting, devolving quality, thoughtfulness and game design, as well as an unwelcomed change in tone. Brom was out for some reason, as well as Baxa, and instead softer and friendlier art introduced us to a more PC world.

Again, my rejections of 2nd Box are fairly sad for me. We all were dazzled by the hope of Oronis, mystified by Daskinor, wondered at the Kreen Empire, and imagined the terrifically challenging campaigns to be had in the Dead Lands. And many of us have put such effort and dedication to making these new areas come alive. Just this morning I was marveling at the great care the team put into forging Secrets of the Dead Lands. Such richness, depth, dedication to quality. It makes me somewhat crossly wish to ask Slavicsek and his team: why couldn’t you put such dedication to quality in what you actually published?

Specifically, aside from above, what are my issues with 2nd Box? Well, most of you DS veterans who are honest should know to some degree without my listing them. But here’s a short collection, machine gun style:

  1. The Way of the Psionicist: Emblematic of the issue with the entire 2nd Box, though good in theory, the rules just flat out don’t work for psionic combat. Have you ever tried them? It gives the defender the far more superior position, to the point of making it hardly worth attacking. Though the booklet is great in allowing psionics to be easier the higher level you get, many of the power adjustments and PSP calculations were half-baked. Though I have adopted the general theory from this pamphlet, I have had to make major adjustments to make it work at all, and have to forge my own eternally in-progress psionic rules catalog. The unfinished and clearly un-playtested nature of this booklet was not appreciated.
  2. Oronis and Kurn: Oronis and Kurn do not make sense in context of the Dragon, his Levy and the events of the Prism Pentad. Oronis was clearly added after the fact as a retcon. To make it make sense, eleborate reframing or added backstory is required, as is the case with so much of 2nd Box.
  3. The Dead Lands are Larger than the Tyr Region, etc.: I am loathe to critique an element of 2nd Box which many clearly dedicated great energy and time into, but the Dead Lands is an awkward super sub-setting for me. Its immense size itself is perhaps the greatest problem set. It takes away an enormous swathe of territory to explore. A more circumspect super-hard area for adventure with bug-undead and para-liches would be fascinating, but a sprawling sub-continent of obsidian seemingly larger than the Tyr Region is too much. No one but high-level adventurers could believably be expected to survive there. And why would you go there? What reason would you have to explore and conquer such a place. Seemingly no chance for food or water. No followers to gather and build a realm. Just death and eternal hardship. Further, in the millennia since the Black Tide issued forth, surely nature and the elements would have broken up much of the Obsidian Plains. Like much of my complaints about 2nd Box, I do not intend to eliminate the Obsidian Plains altogether, but I do intend to circumscribe its extend to a rather radical degree, to make room for more deserts and living places for players to explore. A lot of the developed lore for the Ulyan realms can be ported over to non-obsidian overwhelmed lands, opening possible life up for the South. Before 2nd Box, a few references were made to empty deserts to the South. The Dead Lands took too much away from this. I want it back. And obsidian was a little more precious once in Urik, etc. Infinite obsidian was excessive. I would make much of it due to other forms of volcanic effluence, and much of which by now would have cracked and opened to living land, I would think.
  4. The Bandit States Are Silly, and as if Designed by a 13-Year Old
  5. The Given Populations of the City-States Are Silly, and cannot support the size of armies suggested by 1st Box and the Prism Pentad

I could go on, but I shall refrain. I will admit I will likely be retaining much of what 2nd Box has proposed, but it will be may way, my tone, and reframed to make sense, and otherwise be more mature, believable and interesting (to me anyway). Too much mystery was lost with 2nd Box, and I want to bring much of that back. Too much was not very well thought out, or was otherwise inchoate with 2nd Box, forcing serious players to iron out significant problems and provide relevant details that were papered over with an air of indifference. It didn’t matter that Oronis did not make much sense… it was important that an avangion sorcerer-king was cool. Well, if I must have him (and it seems I must?..), I will make him my way, so he makes sense, and does not embarrass more mature players and DMs.

The greatest part about 2nd Box was of course the cloth map. That was awesome, and deserves to be frame if you have it. And the best part about it was that it was just the original map from 1st Box.

We should have known something was off when Brom’s art did not cover 2nd Box.

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I agree that I mostly ignore the revised boxed set in my games. If I were to use any of it, it’d be the North and the kreen empire details.

I think Daskinor’s mania is a good enough reason for the Dragon to not come to the region. A lot could be written to smooth out the details of Oronis as some are doing in the Pristine Tower Development Group.

I agree that the Deadlands is too big of a place and really too inhospitable for regular characters. I think it’d be a cool setting if there were a whole host of new undead player character options to adventure fully there and beyond.

I’m curious @phaaf_glien what do you find silly about the Bandit States? I think they’re oddly placed as there’s not really able to raid and pillage any significant populations since Kurn is defended and there aren’t really any other villages and towns in the region.

The populations have been a problem since they were introduced in the in the Veiled Alliance book. However, just taking them as the in city numbers seems to work just fine.

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It seems odd and unfair to complain about the size and character of the Dead Lands from the Revised Boxed Set, considering that they receive barely any real development in the Boxed Set - a page of text and a smear on the bottom of the map.

The Dead Lands ARE truly at least as big as the Tyr Region on the Revised map, but so is the Sea of Silt…

As most of their development comes from fan content and unreleased docs received from the TSR team, it could even be argued that the TSR team didn’t necessarily think their take on the Dead Lands was a good idea (I absolutely stand by our work on them, but others came before us and that work is based on their assumptions as well as ours, so credit and blame given as appropriate).

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I wouldn’t want to visit the Dead Lands.

The massive area teaming with hordes of powerful undead that doesn’t (YET) know about the Tyr region?

Yeah, totally go and give them a reason to pay attention.

Right now we’re lucky they’re too busy fighting each other to wander out of their area. The other lucky thing is that they’re all necromants and, if they invade, at least they won’t be defiling. (Summoning powerful spirits from the Gray wherever they go, however.)

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Adam, just be clear, you and the crew did excellent work with the Dead Lands for what it is. Thoughtful, dedicated, and with appropriate detail. I myself was fascinated with that region, upon a time.

I shall endeavor to incorporate as much of that work as possible in my campaign. The Ulyan lore is most helpful, and useful.

I believe I will reduce the obsidian, but extensive past volcanic activity in the area would be an easy transition.

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Once again, thanks, but I got that the first time you said it.

I’d love to hear your thoughts about what I said, though.

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Not only is it larger, it is more detailed than any part of the Tyr Region. I suspect that the collapse of TSR was not the only reason why the Dead Lands were shelved.

I have been using AI to track the Dark Sun setting right up to the Obsidian Oracle but before the Cerulean Storm. My meta-analysis is that Troy Denning decided to retcon his own story, possibility as late as the first pages of the Cerulean Storm, and make halflings the main characters of Athasian history.

If you look at the setting without the Cerulean Storm, a shadow giant is a just a shadow creature, not a halfling, and way more interesting. What Denning did in the Cerulean Storm was cut the Dark Sun campaign setting off at the knees. Bill Slavicsek came in an doubled down on it, even adding his own innovation.

The result was a far less interesting setting. And I say that as someone that enjoyed the Prism Pentad novels.

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As to the size of the Dead Lands, in my mind its vastness was primarily suggested by the Revised and Expanded map included in 2nd Box. The entry in the Wanderer’s Journal does not exactly emphasize the size of the Dead Lands, but the mere fact that the map simply cuts off the southern portion which seemingly continues to spread southward, southwest and southeast definitely suggests an enormous region in my mind. Indeed, to refresh our memories about this map, I include this modified image below:

It is simply too large, in my strong opinion. Even in but the portion included in the map, the Dead Lands seem to be of comparable square mileage to the entire classic Tyr region… the space between the original Seven Cities could all but folded within the revealed northern Dead Lands. I’ve seen this often enough with underdeveloped fantasy and science fiction, where an author spends much time and effort developing the primary region / setting, only to reveal in some later books (usually when the original setting grows stale or boring) that the old primary region is in fact rather insignificant, and that actually there is enormous super-region not actually far away. The original setting becomes diminished, and the new region can to begin to crowd out the old. It is like a boring DM, who is frustrated that his players have defeated the local armies. "You thought your army was strong, and the enemy armies a real challenge? You have no idea (and know nothing John Snow)! I will show you what a real army is, and show you just how petty and small you are, and how might the enemy (the DM) actually is! Armies that were never actually planned out before, coming from regions actually not previously developed, suddenly appear on stage to mask the DM’s incompetence for not having planned out the world more fully at the beginning, and suddenly we are forced to fight Gretch’s super undead army, or the kreen-emperor’s mantis legions extraordinaire.

“The Klingons. The Romulans. They’re nothing.”

Oh yes. Didn’t you know, the Borg Empire was there all along and can crush all your accomplishments instantly. Federation space is but a small corner compared to their empire. Now let the campaign be hijacked by this sudden, new and immane enemy. And by the way their empire is actually really close to your own lands, so there is really not too much more traditional space to adventure in to the south. Best get ready for Borg and Borg-adjacent adventures for awhile if you ever want to head south.

Hopefully I have made my point.

As for other lines of critique, like the Borg the Dead Lands are really only open to high-level adventurers. You could not really adventure there successfully without considerable magic (constant protection from the heat, conjuration of food and water, special modes of travel that won’t destroy your feet). And why would you adventure there? Surely reasons could be had, but with no life and nothing to conquer and rule but undead, many classic reasons to conquer and adventure are blocked. What princess is there to save, unless she is undead? Why free 10,000 undead serfs, bound eternally to some lich lord? Will the undead serfs be grateful? What town or village could you become lord of, and watch grow and prosper? Are we really going to be talking to a host of intelligent undead as NPCs from now on? What really do we have in common with intelligent undead, their miserable minds extending centuries, without hope or any raison d’etre intelligible to any even partly normal PC?

The Dead Lands could be 1/10 the size depicted on the Expanded and Revised map and still be considered quite extensive and dangerous. Instead, almost the whole of the south of the Tyr Region is now dominated by an immense sub-continent of obsidian death. All the adventure opportunities, lands to explore, and strange settlements (and cities?) to discover are gone.

It was a lazy choice, in my opinion, of Bill Slavicsek to just block off a huge swathe of the south, and the west for that matter. If Gretch or whoever has been there for millennia, then why hasn’t he marched his legions forth before, like some Dark Sun Game of Thrones “Summer is Coming” theme? You mean we’ve never heard of his mighty zombie army before?

etc.

The Sea of Silt is full of adventure opportunities. For an involved DM, there are a great many little islands, cultures and adventures to be had, even by fairly low-level adventuring parties, along much of the Silt Sea. The Silt Sea is an accessible highway to the unknown, and players can become pirate admirals, lords of archipelagos, or become spirits of the land in remote jungle island chains, or find lost ruins on islands where they can build new settlements. Little of this is really possible in the Dead Lands, or at least it would be much more alien, and much more difficult. Do players really want to adventure in the Dead Lands to become a lord of zombies in inhospitable domains?

To me, the Dead Lands as they are written are only for quite high level adventurers darting in and out, daring extreme odds, to recover some specific magical item or defeat some lich-emperor, and then immediately leave. That can be very interesting, and indeed worthwhile, but did it really need to take up such an enormous swathe of what may have otherwise been very interesting territory?

It would have been interesting to see what TSR would have done with the Dead Lands had they kept at it. It could have been used as a type of “Abyssal Run” adventure, where PCs instead of going to the Lower Planes for super adventures, instead make a raid/run for the Dead Lands, where they are in and out to hit the Big Bad. I’m all for undead adventures, and raiding DS liches for whatever reason could have been pretty awesome, but again, it is just too much territory, and too many undead. Even for me, a fan of undead, undead would eventually get boring, in my opinion. I want to deal with living creatures. I want to overcome Athasian desert challenges with invading armies and such… not impossible challenges like marching my brigade over the Dead Lands. Save for super-magic, that would not be realistic. The high-level warrior’s army is useless for the Dead Lands. Normal wizards can hardly cast spells there, or at least only very weak ones. What druids really would be found there? And who really wants an all undead party to play in the Dead Lands? I have never heard of an all undead PC party, and something tells me that would get old very fast.

I suppose we will never know what TSR would have done with it, but it seems to me the Dead Lands would have been a few-trick-pony region that would quickly grow stale and wasted. I would have preferred a super high-level druid, cleric or preserver or whatever heal much of it as quickly as possible, to expand lands for future play.

Perhaps my critiques are overly critical. Like I said, for a long time I have wanted to like the Dead Lands. But my concerns loom too large in my imagination. Like I said, I intend to circumscribe the Dead Lands, especially geographically. It is an interesting idea, but perhaps the size of a few baronies or so, and not the size of a vast empire that dwarfs our the Tyr Region.