How are Psionics and Magic different (in setting)?

Setting
#58

In “Uncaged: Faces of Sigil” we have person “Jemorille the Exile”. He claims many things about magic in other worlds, eg to have counseled Rajaat about magic. Even if he lied about this (this is probably - his stories look as impossible) - I think, that he should know defiling and using this. He know Rajaat, that he is connected with creation of magic in Athas and his motivation (restore the world to his forsake brethren). This isn’t common knowadle in Sigil or multiversum - faction Harmonium know title “Champions of Rajaat” but think that this were “bunch of bashers” and they have wanted “eliminate chaos and bring peace”. Great organization (with influences in whole multiversum) have wrong infos about great event in isolated world, but random non-athasian know more and deeper? Something should be…

Jemorille knows too much to be just a coincidence. But this is still “circumstantial, imprecise evidence” not unquestionable evidence. Therefore I think, that also in other worlds athasian wizards should have options to defiling.

I don’t remember, do in official books about DS were notes about travels to other worlds for wizards. Maybe some other?

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#59

Whether or not that would work in somewhere like Oerth or Eberron, it wouldn’t work on Toril - Mystra has absolute control over the Weave and can bar other forms of magic (as she did with 10th, 11th and 12th level spells after Karsus stupidly assumed Mystryl’s power). Neither the post-Netheril Mystra, nor the ascended MIdnight, is going to let some offworlder defiler start lying waste to Toril. You get magical power through Mystra’s Weave, or Shar’s Shadow Weave.

Nor would it work on Aebrynis because an Athasian defiler simply doesn’t have the connection to the land that would let them use ‘True Magic’ and access Mebhaighl. You might be able to access the schools Magicians do - illusion and diviniation, but that would be the absolute stretch.

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#60

The Planescape boxed set also says that lower plane fiends respect Athasian defilers because their magic is so destructive, or something along those lines. Despite this, I find defiling elsewhere to be implausible.

The same publication more or less calls Dragonlance Order of High Sorcery mages losers. I think you have to take it with a grain of salt.
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I’m pretty sure that whole section is supposed to be tongue in cheek, like an easter egg in a video game and not supposed to be taken seriously at all.

If you take it at face value, Rajaat didn’t invent magic (on Athas), he is a monstrous fraud that was taught magic by someone else.

Here is a write-up of this section from another website.

Jemorille the Exile
A rilmani of the Spire, a being of no little Power – and no little Modesty.

Jemorille the Exile is an argenach rilmani, one of the metal-themed planar beings representing Neutrality in the Planescape cosmos. His entry begins thus: “The Lady of Pain does not keep the peace in Sigil. I do.”

Yes, this entry is from Jemorille’s own in-character perspective and that’s a bit of an issue, as it’s not clear how much of an unreliable narrator he’s supposed to be. Anyway, he wastes no time talking about how he’s the one who shapes the fate of Sigil and protects it, and how the Lady basically does what he wants because he only even lets her see the problems he chooses.

“You don’t believe me. I can see it in your thoughts; such is my power.” Odd comment, given that reading minds is scarcely a rare capability in the planes, and it’s a low-level arcane spell for spellcasters to boot.

He talks about how he brings Balance in the Cage and beyond. He also mentions he’s “known to some” as the Exile and that this is really a poor choice of moniker because he’s not an exile at all, dontchaknow, but here of his own will.

Jemorille talks about his record on the Prime Material Plane, which is a who’s who of the other major settings of the time along with accompanying serious fuck-ups that are totally not his fault, guys. He claims he’s responsible for the Temple of Elemental Evil, Dark Sun’s planet Athas going kaboom (due to teaching Rajaat magic), and the really racist Mongol Horde analogue in the Forgotten Realms. Each is pitched as a marvel of his manipulation plus a denial of the bad bits being his responsibility. It’s not clear whether any of this is actually true.

How did he end up where he is now? The aurumachs, rulers of the rilmani, sent him after taking note of his accomplishments.

Anyway, he influences the kriegstanz to control the factions and thus the whole city. The Lady is basically his tool as he manipulates people to get her attention (or not); he also claims to be the puppet-master of Shemeshka the Marauder, as he changes himself to appear as Colcook, one of her bodyguards. He hunts he takes many other roles in the city as well.

He even says the “fiendish conflict known as the Blood War is another of my fancies”, claiming he keeps it going to keep the two sides balanced, and hence justifying slipping a cross-entry reference to the celestial conspiracy in the book into this entry.

He finishes with a commentary about the game of chess, and how he feels an affinity for its depiction of “lords waging subtle war through the strategic manipulation of lesser beings”, finishing with addressing the reader to make their next move, because the last move is always his.

Quick chant, well, he’s an argenach; no surprises in his stat block. Strong, laden with a massive armoury of spell-like abilities, can fire neem-beams of silvery light. Apparently he can be found all across Sigil in any guise but his claims of being Colcook are indeed legit, so he’s often doing that. “He tries to manipulate others with subtlety, but he’s sometimes more obvious than he realizes.”

In a surprise to no-one, he doesn’t go in for fighting much as he thinks it’s beneath him, and uses his lesser powers of suggestion or illusion rather than reveal his more potent abilities.

Impressions: The problem with Jemorille is that the write-up isn’t clear as to what’s actually going on, and because there are several possibilities, it doesn’t support any of them with enough material. Is Jemorille telling the truth? Is he delusional? Is it somewhere in between?

I have an enormous problem with Jemorille as presented, if you take his claims to be true; he’s an enormous fuck-you to all the different settings referenced, and to two key elements of Planescape, basically making them the shitty diversions of one arsehole who now hangs around a pub in Sigil. Hahah, yeah, you all thought there were cool setting elements in your games but really they’re a bored argenach puppeteering you all for no discernible purpose, and he’s not even an interesting villain with a cool agenda. What a disappointment.

I think it’s fairly evident that things are not as presented, but purely getting Jemorille’s viewpoint makes it hard to use. Chances are that all the things he references are either nothing to do with him, or places he made fuck-ups, and the aurumachs called him back then genuinely exiled him because they’re tired of him screwing up. Thing is, ‘exiled rilmani’ should be a cool story hook, but Jemorille’s just not really doing anything interesting with it. He’s dicking about pretending to be Shemeshka’s minion—and that’s really his core role in this book’s networks and plot maps, being a guy who passes on info about Shemeshka, and it’s totally unnecessary because they could have had Colcook be treacherous but not a random rilmani.

Jemorille as a lunatic who has retreated into delusions about his past achievements and his present could work, but he needs a meaningful driving agenda, and some good reasons to actually interact with PCs. As-is, he’s only ever someone else in passing, trying to manipulate folks for… nebulous reasons of Balance, so you’re not likely to even have a meaningful scene with him. Imagine if he was a rilmani exiled for, well, what would get a rilmani taken off the Xmas card list? Becoming too extreme ? Taking interesting non-Balance views and agendas? Just losing his mind over constantly trying to keep all the plates spinning in perfect Neutrality only for the forces of existence to constantly knock them off. I dunno, he needs something . Right now he’s a non-entity.

Except for the part where he’s for some reason telling all this shit to a random guy in a pub, including the fact he’s Colcook, which makes no sense and basically compromises what little conspiracy stuff he’s got going on. So, I guess that’s another solid mark against ‘actual mastermind’ and for ‘delusional cretin’.

Long quote but well worth the read.

#61

Not only :wink: Eg. pluma and hishna work without Weave or Shadow Weave in times, when Maztica was isolated from rest of Toril (eg. prayers of dwarves didn’t come to they gods, so after years they were cultists of maztican gods) this types of magic is connected with mattery. IDK how magic from Zakhara work.

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#62

These Maztican magics still rely on the weave, even though they are a different tradition to wizardry/sorcerery. A dead magic area renders hishna/pluma inactive.

I’m not sure how that happened, but maybe those dwarves were abandoned by their gods for some reason. Regardless, on Toril even divine magic is reliant on the weave for energy. See Prince of Lies, where Mystra denies magic to Cyric, and even threatens to do the same to his followers.

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#63

Areas dead magic work with every form of super-natural powers, IDK how this work for lord AO, but also powers and magic from of outside god-like-beings and general outsiders (here even lord AO cannot interact) don’t work in ares dead magic.

By lore - pluma and hishna use powers of matter, closed in feathers, teeths, claws, flowers etc. Here lack transfer energy from other planes and transformation this to goals of spellcaster, and main mechanism of magic work in this style. Divine magic work in style, that source of magic is from divine realms of target god and this energy have to transfered to material world by Weave.

Magic still work during Spellplague, when Weave was damage (or destructed - I don’t remember cuz I dont read too much about this period in FR).

From novels.

In ancient in Underdark, under Trackless Sea, was war between one dwarfs and drows. During this war had place great catastrophy, and some dwarfs and some drows survived by escaping to the surface through some corridors. Drows finish in Mount Zatal (close to capital of Nexal Empire), dwarfs in desert (House of Tezca), close Sunstone. Both races quickly discovered that their old gods havent connection with this new lands. Drows were happy - end of tyranny of Lolth and feminist supremacy; many blasphemies were tolded in direction to Lolth without revange and transformation to driders or other elements. Drows get to collaboration with Zaltec and Nexalans.

Main point of interest of Zaltec was maintaining isolation of Maztica from rest of worlds. Therefore death Erixitl and few persons from Golden Legion was very important - prophecy would be destroyed.

We have information also from Spelljammer. Travelers couldn’t land in Maztica - something “push” them, even being at (or over) the sea. Only end of events of “Maztica Trilogy” lead to “opening this continent”.

If I good remember - there wasn’t description “why or how Maztica was closed”.

I know this site. But as full easter egg - I don’t believe in this. He have num of words similar like a other persons in this book. He is liar, but have too correct informations for “totally liar” or “only charlatan”.

But cuz Planescape isn’t now expanded by Wizards (maybe this is better…) we cannot be full sure :frowning:

#64

“Yay” for WotC pulling a Disney and de-cannonizing everything pre-5th ed. Everything is now unofficial and doesn’t officially exist unless it has shown up in a 5th ed book. :roll_eyes:

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#65

Spelljammer fascinated and repulsed me in equal measure when I first encountered it.

Its obsession with creating a Krynn Space, a Toril Space, for each setting was terrifying, for in expanding each setting they crossed narrative barriers that should be kept closed off.

As I do not want Dracula on Mars, or Huckleberry Finn in Liliput, or Jason in space (wait, oh, goddamnit), I do not want Elminster on Krynn. Dregoth on Oerth.

Yet…4e and 5e folded the spelljammer ship design into Planescape’s astral ship, and something grandiose was begging to emerge (thank you Eberron for shining the light along the path).

In a sense Planescape never left, but was absorbed into the generic elements of most settings.

I do hope they pull it off with the new Spelljammer book.

#66

What about Elminster, Mordenkainen and Dalamar on Earth? Specifically Ed Greenwood’s home? I always enjoyed the Wizards Three columns. Fun to see the new spells, even more fun to see 3 powerful archmages meeting on ‘neutral ground’ as a sort of cosmic sewing circle.

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#67

Frankly, I’ve always mixed every setting as freely as the players like, and have never been a fan of setting purity in any of my homebrew games.

That being said, making some places hard to get to (or some combinations hard to achieve) is kind of required if you want to keep the integrity of the various standard settings alive, but I never like outright saying “that’s impossible” to people who want to use their creativity.

Elminster and Dracula could theoretically meet on Athas in my homebrew, but it would require an EXTREMELY good (and probably universe endangering) reason in the story.

After all, games should be about bringing enjoyment to the table for the players and the DM, not enforcing your highly particular vision of what the world must be onto everyone in attendance.

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#68

D&D as a game and as a whole has pretty much ALWAYS been about a distinct LACK of setting purity. Gygax expected each DM to pick and choose and make up new stuff too, just the way he ran his personal game the way he wanted it (I’ll get ride of you psionics, and your little monks too!), regardless of what he allowed to be published in the source books.
Otherwise the Greyhawk campaign setting would never have had starships from their Star Probe/Star Empires campaigns, nor a moon crashing into a distant part of the world, the Chainmail setting, or connections to Boot Hill, MA/GW, and the parallel Oerths (Aerth, Earth, etc).

And what about Dark Sun? They isolate it from the rest of the settings and then promptly ignore the isolation for certain evil outsiders and the gith… among other things.

#69

I discussed something similar here. My conclusion was that as long as it does not warp the setting, then anything goes.

Let’s say you have a player that really wants to play a warforged in Dark Sun. Why not let him? As long as you don’t have the Eberron baggage of a major war in which warforged were used, then a singular warforged out there won’t warp the setting. Maybe this warforged was created by a cleric or wizard with the craft construct feat. The point is that there are many ways to say yes that won’t compromise the vision of the DM or the integrity of the setting.

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#70

I’m a big fan of the rule of yes

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#71

I recently found these two interesting quotes from second edition, and I’ll paraphrase:

  • Psionics have been practiced on Athas for thousands of years…

  • Athasians have been creating psionic items for thousands of years…

#72

That certainly fits with the timeline.

#73

It would seem that these comments would make the rpg version of Athas very compatible with 3rd edition.

Not sure how that does or does not line up with the novels.

#74

I kind of liked this idea for Warforged in Athas The Burnt World of Athas - Athasian Warforged

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#75

Backstories are good, but on a basic level the history of Athas is opaque. History has been deliberately obscured by the Sorcerer Monarchs, who have had their templar scribes write self serving historical narratives that may have literally nothing to do with real events. For all we know, the official histories of Tyr and Urik (for example) may be completely contradictory.

The reason I say this is that it isn’t really important to explain why a warforged is in Athas. If we are talking thousands of warforged then yes, this requires some sort of rationale, but a singular warforged or a handful can just be a mystery. Lots of strange things happen on Athas.

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#76

Wow, this thread really went off the rails of the original discussion. Some of the basics are pretty well covered by others posts, but I think there is some stuff missing still and a lack of clarity in places in how things are said and the detail. I’ve been working on a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4e conversion for Dark Sun, which is evidently a similar system to Zweihänder! I’ve been starting to puzzle out how I want handle the psionics conversion so I’ve been going over the detail of psionics in 2e and in the setting and looking a little at some concepts for psionics in 3e/3.5. But that’s a bit of a digression.

First off, I think if you are talking about the original conception of the setting and how psionics was integrated into it and the novels, that you really do have to base your assumptions at lest largely on the way that psionics worked in 2e rather than later iterations. I know some others made this claim I’m just reiterating it. Although that is delving toward the mechanical in a way, there is a necessary relationship between the mechanical and setting fluff. If the mechanics don’t make sense to the setting then it doesn’t really work.

As others have described there were significant difference in what you could do with psionics versus arcane magic. They correctly characterized it as being something internal and smaller scale/more personal. Another aspect that wasn’t mentioned is that psionic is grounded in the idea of manipulating existing forces and properties around the caster in ways that are more understandable, there is a sort of pseudoscientific aspect to psionics that is less grandious and more of a sci-fi flavor. So while a wizard might just conjure a fireball out of thin air, a psion will agitate the molecules in his target to set them on fire. Another aspect of this was how the powers were linked to each other in a growing tree formation so you would build greater ability and flexibility within a domain of related powers without any giant unexpected jumps into other territory. A great example is the psionic power Mindlink which serves as a prerequisite for almost every other power of Telepathy, in the logic of psionics you have to learn how to form a stable connection between two minds before you can do things like probe their memories or dominate them. In Arcane magic there are really limitations like that, if you are capable of learning a certain power level of spells and you find a spell or are taught it by someone you can suddenly learn how to do something completely unrelated to any other spells that you previous knew and possibly of a very high level of power and complexity as well.

Another point that people brought up that I want to reiterate, is that the sorts of things that you could do with psionic and magic differed. While it can be a little hard to put your fingers on this exactly, if we look more closely at the Disciplines of Psionics and the Schools of Magic you can see how they differ.

Disciplines of Psionics:
• Telepathy (powers of the mind, relating to master of one’s own mind and the minds of others)
• Clairsentience (powers of perception, drawing on psychic impressions, residue, aura, etc expanding the perceptual abilities and extending them across great distances)
• Psychokinesis (powers of movement of objects and people, as well as the very small creating heat/cold through controlling movement)
• Psychoportation (powers of that manipulate time and space itself, you could also look at this as quantum manipulation, some powers introduced in The Will and the Way get into the concept of Phasing in order to allow things to pass through each other without interacting, or collasping dimensions to create impossibly sharp blades)
• Psychometabolism (control of ones own body and metabolic processes to create powers and abilities)
• Metapsionics (powers that effect the use of other psionic powers)

I’ve noticed that all of these disciplines connect and there seems to be a certain relationship to them where they intersect… I won’t go into that too much here, but there is a clearly identifiable bridging territory between various disciplines, such as clairsentience and psychometabolism at the point of physical sensory ability. The the scope of these disciplines is fairly well defined.

Now for the schools of magic
• Abjuration (protective magic)
• Conjuration (summoning magic)
• Evocation (flashy energy magic)
• Necromancy (life and death energies magic)
• Transmutation (Changing things and people into other things and people magic)
• Illusion (Magic that produces false sensory information, or convincing things that are insubstantial in some way/not real)
• Divination (Magic that lets you know things, including the future perhaps)
• Enchantment (Magic that makes things magical? Also bringing people or creatures under your sway by controlling their behavior or emotions)

The domains of the schools of magic are a lot more broadly stated and often confusing to the point where a spells membership in one school or another can seem arbitrary. They also have to do with more esoteric concepts. There is no limitation of the idea that you are wielding the power directly from within yourself. Arcane magic can easily draw on all sorts of different powers all rolled up into one spell, doing things that psions would need to employ multiple powers to accomplish or apply powers to area or groups far beyond the scope of what a psion could do.

A final point which is territory that no one yet as mentioned at all, is the fact that the combination of psionics and magic is itself an extremely important aspect of the power of Arcane magic in the setting. Through mastering and then combing the two types of powers great abilities are unlocked which create permanent transformation and earth shattering magics.

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#77

Wow this thread was a fun read!
I regret I am so late to the discussion but it was so interesting.
I hope the set up for the Zheihander system went well.

In short the way I felt about the differences is:
Psionics is powered by the character. More capable on the Internal
Magic is powered by something else. More capable on the External

As this goes into my view of the differences, I will frame the statement that at my table’s game, there is no magic/psionic transparency. They are treated differently, and unless explicitly stated, magics do not affect psionics and vice versa. So a Dispel Magic does not work on a psionic effect, and Detect Psionics does not pick up magic.

Magic broke the world of Athas. Both divine and arcane magic have had catastrophic consequences on the world. Its not that Psionics cannot. The Order could be believed to have that on lock down, preventing anyone from causing catastrophic problems with Epic Psionics. However, in the eyes of the multitudes, Magic is dangerous.

Unless you are educated in magic or know about spellcraft, it may be hard to know if your priest is an arcane spell caster. So that idea of ignorance is important in part. The lack of knowledge is rampant in Dark Sun. The ability to disguise spellcasting as psionics is also another way a spellcaster can try to hide. Its not that a Psionicist can’t do the same damage as a Spellcaster, but its because there is such a taboo against wizards that it can cause a panic and painful response.

However, the question about “how to handle psionics” is that in my understanding and works, is that it comes from the person. All creatures on Athas would have some latent Psionic potential, whether or not it is worked is another thing. With few exceptions, Psionics are limited in what a person can learn and gain. Powers can be basically written into a person’s mind, and reality warping powers potentially at their fingertips. Even time travel is in their reach.

What is important for the mechanics to model? Magic relies on an external source.

For Divine it is adherence to an external power. These powers are alien, and do not adhere to the same rules of reality as the common man. They may have grudges, logic, or rules that are hard to fathom. Breaking those rules can get someone cut off from their power source.

For Arcane it is a scientific manipulation of the world around a person. Arcane Magic draws on innate power, without permission, to cast spells. There is more power the greater fuel used, giving way to how Defiling burns more of the power to cast stronger spells. However, Preservation magic only uses enough to get the effect done. In a straight spellcasting fight, Defilers have the edge, because they are able to pull more power.

What can you do with magic that can’t be done with psionics?

Technically speaking, very little. A character can do much the same things. However, there are some very key and important differences. A character with enough money and influence can get access to any power, assuming they can manifest the power in the first place. They can have it put into their mind, or put a hand on another person and use a power from their fellow.

In combat, a person can get killed by an Energy Ball (psionic) just as well as a Fireball (arcane), but the Energy Ball can change its elemental type and does not need to be prepared. If you know it, you know it. However, Psions only know a certain number of powers. Outside of that power and influence mentioned above, they will never have the chance to learn things forbidden from their path. Though what they can do on that path is very strong, it is not as available.

A lot of powers for Psionics are focused on the self. They are not good for buffing other players. Their potential for self-buffs are immense, even something as healing another player is tricky. So your Psions are generally not viewed as healers. They can be functional and effective, but you’re probably not going to hire one to be a medic, heal your sick children, or provide protections against the elements. There are ways, but Psions are rather limited, and if someone did not spend their life and their potential to “grow” a certain way, they will not be available (EG: flight in general is difficult for Psionics, but not impossible, where as Fly is available for arcane casters and some air clerics).

Magic on the other hand, is an external source. They can prepare their abilities. Divine casters can request new spells, fitting the situation, bring back the dead, create food and water (that stays), and cure diseases. Arcane casters can study a problem and research a solution, developing a new spell, or find a hidden spell scroll and incorporate greater knowledge. Where as a Psionicist could theoretically do everything a Magic caster can, for Psions that’s a life decision. For a caster, its a day of preparation.

What criteria should we use to judge whether a game system has done a good job of representing Athasian magic and psionics and the fact they are different?

What is the cost of magic? That is the big decisive factor. Magic changes or breaks the rules. Whether it is adherence to an external force like a Sorcerer King or pulling energy from the world around you for arcane magic, there is a cost. The more powerful the magic, the more powerful the cost. However, you can do incredible things with that power.

Psionics is generated power from a creature. It can be stored, shaped, destroyed, but it is the renewable resource of Athas. The downside is it is far less malleable. You can become a powerful juggernaut and destructive force of nature. However, sacrificing life is a potent and horrific mechanic magic is capable of to do incredible things beyond the reach of a singular person. Even the Dragon needed slaves to sacrifice for Rajaat’s prison.