How the templarate was thinking about SM levels back in 2004

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Not just the templarate, of course. Most people set the levels of the Sorcerer Monarchs between 50 and 80 levels. That was because there was no way to produce a credible SM in 3.5e using the rules that the templarate had at the time.

My DS epic rules can produce credible SMs at the same level that the SMs had in 2e. That is level 40 to 50.

It’s good to get insight into what people were thinking at the time. Its fascinating.

Blimey. How come the power scaling went that high for these guys?

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Because of the rules that they had from Legends of Athas. They had to pile on the character levels for the Sorcerer Monarchs because they would not be powerful enough under the Legends of Athas framework. My Epic Athas work has credible SMs from 40 - 50 level (with 50th level being Borys the Dragon of Athas). It’s more than a happy coincidence that they are the same level as they were in 2E in my version.

No disrespect to Legends of Athas, which really is a nice product. I used that as my starting point and then placed a new framework atop it, so it is compatible. It adds to Legends of Athas for the most part, rather than replaces.

40-50th level characters? Really? The power scaling is ridiculously high. There is no need to make them that high especially in 3rd edition. At that rate just keep them statless and say they succeed at anything they want. Give them Prismatic Dragon Stats Spending all this time making these toons for what? No one can fight or beat them, except in the novels.

In my 35 years of gaming I never got a game past 25th level, let alone 40th level, not to mention that’s just their levels. What about their CR or the CR with their armies, templars, etc included.

What are they even doing that is challenging enough to actually accumulate even 1 XP at these levels?

I’m not sure how they went from 21st level characters to this. They should be on par with the archfiends/demonlords (total CR 25-28) with Borys about CR 30 max.

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All of the SMs are beatable under the right circumstances. Borys and Dregoth are the real challenge.

They were 40+ level in 2E. Hamanu 43, Nibenay 44, Dregoth 49, Borys 50. 2E DS used a different way on counting and counted levels of psion and wizard once, so Borys was “level 30”. But his real levels was wizard 20, psionicist 20, dragon 10.

I don’t think you can add the CR if SM’s templars unless they are part of the fight. With my versions, a good rule of thumb is that the CR is their character level + number of salient feats + number of ranks of metamorphosis. At high levels CR tends to break so guessing is all you can do.

They gain XP slowly, but generally not through combat. Lucky for the PCs because of the SMs could XP farm they’d be dead meat.

They were 40+ as I explain above. The templarate had the SMs at 50 - 80 levels for 3.5. I’ve got them at the same level they were in 2E.

The archfiends/demonlords that were published are not necessarily the true forms of those creatures, but lower powered aspects. Check out The Gates of Hell , by Dicefreaks Publishing for what a real archfiend looks like.

Speaking of this, my work on advanced being rules (salient feats) is almost complete. Complete Sorcerer Monarch statblocks for all SMs coming in the next few months.