Assuming 3.5 rules, what are the levels of the SMs? Assume that Borys the Dragon of Tyr is 50th level. What levels are the rest?
You might be after this:
Athas.org used a base 30 it seems for the SMs, I used a base 50 in an older draft. I moved into a base 60 a few years back with some updated prestige classes to make them more comparable with Forgotten Realms gods. I tend to view them as the gods of the Tyr region, even if they aren’t divine with enemies with the power to take them out having been kept in check by Borys and his ability to call on the other SMs for backup if it ever came to war.
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Yeah. I am more interested in how they compare to each other, rather than their total levels. The reason I say Borys is 50th level is because that was Borys true level in 2E, although due to the the way 2E described dual classing, he was called a “30th level dragon”. Borys was 20th level psionicist, 20th level wizard, and 10th level dual progression class dragon.
My next question was going to be, if I got sufficient answers to this one, is what would be the SMs character level (to be clear, I am not interested in their specific classes and PrCs, only total character level) if the Dragon was 40th level.
So have at it. I need no breakdown of the classes, just a number.
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If you just want their relative progress, it’s presented a few times in official materials. Dragon Kings said Nibenay had completed 3 steps of dragon metamorphosis, Tectuktitlay 2 stages, and the rest only the first stage. (This never felt totally right to me that most of them were stuck after the first stage… why had they all gone so long without progress? I think I might bump them all up a level or two by the time of FY1.)
By Free Year 10, Nibenay was supposed to have completed 4 stages, while Lalali-Puy & Hamanu completed 3. Daskinor completed 2. Oronis had completed 4 stages of avangion metamorphosis.
It says elsewhere that Dregoth completed 9 stages and Kalid-Ma completed 7 stages, putting them into the animalistic stages, before the others got together to kill them. If you assume each stage is a level you can work it out from there.
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Righty. Since there is no feedback, I am going to assume all SMs (including the Dragon) are between 35 HD and 42 HD. Don’t worry - the fully metamorphosed Dragon is very powerful, even on the chance that he might have lower HD than one of the SMs.
You didn’t ask about hit dice, hard to get a response to a question that you didn’t even pose.
What do you mean? In 3.5e, levels and hit dice are much the same thing.
No real reason why they have to be though. It would make a lot of sense for the Dragon Metamorphosis stages to grant a bunch of extra hit dice decoupled with character levels as the character is transforming their body to be much larger and more powerful.
Its something that I have considered (I’ve been working on this since 2017) but ultimately rejected for various reasons.
All I am interested in really is the strength of the Sorcerer Monarch’s relative to each other. In 4E, their levels are as follows (after conversion to standard).
42 - Borys (Dragon of Tyr)
39 - Dregoth
37 - Lalali-Puy
36 - Hamanu
33 - Nibenay
32 - Abalach-Re
29 - Andropinis
29- Daskinor
26 - Tectuktitlay
If people are happy with this, I can go with this. The average level is 33.66. So the numerical difference would look like this.
42 - Borys (Dragon of Tyr) (24.77% higher than average)
39 - Dregoth (15.86% higher than average)
37 - Lalali-Puy (9.92% higher than average)
36 - Hamanu (6.95% higher than average)
33 - Nibenay (average)
32 - Abalach-Re (-4.93% lower than average)
29 - Andropinis (13.84% lower than average)
29- Daskinor (13.84% lower than average)
26 - Tectuktitlay (-22.75% lower than average)
As for Oronis (rank 3), since he is the only “good” Sorcerer Monarch, I will say he is average like Nibenay. And Kalak (rank 1) is consigned to mediocrity like Tectuktitlay (rank 2) for getting himself killed (level 26).
Now, working out the levels and ranks of metamorphosis. For every rank of metamorphosis, I am removing a character level. Power comes at a price (like Level Adjustment in 3.5e). I am going to assume that level 35 is the average level in 3.5e. Numbers will be round up.
44 - Borys (Dragon of Tyr): -10 ranks of metamorphosis = 34 levels.
41 - Dregoth: -9 ranks of metamorphosis = 32 levels.
39 - Lalali-Puy: -3 ranks of metamorphosis = 36 levels.
38 - Hamanu: -3 ranks of metamorphosis = 35 levels.
35 - Nibenay: -4 ranks of metamorphosis = 31 levels.
35 - Oronis: -3 ranks of metamorphosis = 32 levels.
33 - Abalach-Re: -1 ranks of metamorphosis = 32 levels.
30 - Andropinis: -1 ranks of metamorphosis = 29 levels.
30- Daskinor: -1 (?) ranks of metamorphosis = 29 levels.
27 - Tectuktitlay: -2 (?) ranks of metamorphosis = 25 levels.
27 - Kalak: -1 ranks of metamorphosis = 26 levels.
The immediate objection is that Lalali Puy, the Oba of Gulg is higher level than Borys or Dregoth. But in my advanced being framework, metamophosis grants significant power boosts through salient feats, the acquisition of which are gained through an evolution ranks system,
What are Salient Feats?
A salient feat is to an epic feat what an epic feat is to a regular non-epic feat. A salient feat is between two and four times (sometimes more!) as powerful as an epic feat, depending on the context and utility. Only a creature with an evolution score can take salient feats, and on Athas the only creatures that have salient feats are advanced beings, such as the Sorcerer Monarchs.
Salient feats provide the creatures possessing them with a crucial edge against those creatures lacking them. Who has these salient feats depends on you, the Dungeon Master. In my campaign, creatures with an evolution score are the Sorcerer Monarchs and those that have undergone a preserver or defiler metamorphosis. This system, however, is completely modular, and can be used for literally anything at all. Perhaps you like cleric/psion combinations as advanced beings. In that case, there is no reason why they cannot use this system. You can use this modular system with Legends of Athas, or my own series of psionic enchantments for the metamorphosis of advanced beings. Because this is completely modular, you may take what you like and discard everything else.
Evolution Score Salient Feats 21 1 23 2 25 3 27 4 29 5 31 6 33 7 35 8 37 9 39 10 41 11 43 12 45 13 47 14 Evolution Score
Your evolution score dictates how many salient feats you get, and the bonuses you get from some salient feats.
Your evolution score is calculated as your character level +2 for each defiler or preserver metamorphosis rank you have. These are known as evolution ranks.
In many salient feats, the evolution score operates like an ability score, and follows the bonus progression of ability scores. When a bonus is provided by the evolution score bonus, it is an evolution bonus.
In terms of evolution ranks, which is the real driver of power, it looks like this.
Borys (Dragon of Tyr): 54 ranks = 17 salient feats.
Dregoth: 50 ranks = 15 salient feats.
Lalali-Puy: 42 ranks = 11 salient feats.
Hamanu: 41 ranks = 11 salient feats.
Nibenay: 39 ranks = 10 salient feats.
Oronis: 38 ranks = 9 salient feats.
Abalach-Re: 34 ranks = 7 salient feats.
Andropinis: 31 ranks = 6 salient feats.
Daskinor: 31 ranks = 6 salient feats.
Tectuktitlay: 29 ranks = 5 salient feats.
Kalak: 28 ranks = 4 salient feats.
Here are the current salient feats that I have created. PDF.
The Sorcerer Monarchs at the lower end seem very deprived by the way I have chosen to calculate the evolution score. Another way could be to give 3 salient feats at evolution rank 21. That would change the number of salient feats thusly.
Borys (Dragon of Tyr): 54 ranks = 21 salient feats.
Dregoth: 50 ranks = 20 salient feats.
Lalali-Puy: 42 ranks = 13 salient feats.
Hamanu: 41 ranks = 13 salient feats.
Nibenay: 39 ranks = 12 salient feats.
Oronis: 38 ranks = 11 salient feats.
Abalach-Re: 34 ranks = 9 salient feats.
Andropinis: 31 ranks = 8 salient feats.
Daskinor: 31 ranks = 8 salient feats.
Tectuktitlay: 29 ranks = 7 salient feats.
Kalak: 28 ranks = 6 salient feats.
This seems better. Now its clear why Kalak wanted to complete his metamorphosis in one go. He would go from 6 salient feats to 15 salient feats in one go, not to mention the benefits of being a huge dragon. He’d still be a wimp compared to Borys or Dregoth, which is probably why Borys wasn’t worried (per his statements to Tithian).
Note that all the Sorcerer Monarchs have at least 2 salient feats in common right off the bat. One is the Sorcerer Monarch salient feat.
Sorcerer Monarch [Salient]
You can supply spells to templars that have sworn loyalty to you.
Prerequisites: Evolution score. Elemental vortex.
Benefit: You have templars, to whom you can provide spells. You can select four divine domains from which to provide you templars, so long as these domains do not contradict your nature (for example, the chaos domain when you are lawful).
A Sorcerer Monarch does not respond to prayers or grant spells like a D&D deity does. Instead, each Sorcerer Monarch controls a conduit to the elemental planes and can grant or deny a templar access to spells with a simple ritual. However, a Sorcerer Monarch isn’t aware of which spells a templar is requesting or casting. Sorcerer Monarchs can only grant or deny access to the conduit – they don’t directly control how the energy passing through the conduit is used.
The other, if you use Rajaat in your campaign and the Sorcerer Monarchs are champions of the cleansing war, there is genocidal focus.
Genocidal Focus [Salient]
You have chosen to exterminate an entire species of creatures.
Prerequisites: Evolution score.
Benefit: Genocidal Focus (Su): One race of creatures is your sworn enemy. Damage-dealing spells and powers deal +4d6 bonus damage to members of the designated race. Any weapon you use in combat is considered a dread weapon against members of that race. If you stop using the weapon, it loses its dread ability. When used against members of your enemy race, the weapon’s effective enhancement bonus is +4, and it deals +4d6 points of bonus damage.
You choose your enemy race from among those listed under the Type (subtype) Table 2–4: Athasian Ranger Favored Enemies, in the Dark Sun Core Rules 3.5, page 52 - 53.
Special: This salient feat is associated with the Champions of Rajaat.
Its also highly likely all of the Sorcerer Monarchs chose to increase their ability scores.
Superior Stat Array [Salient]
As an advanced being, only the long-vanished divinities can rival your strength and wisdom.
Prerequisites: Evolution score.
Benefit: The advanced being gains the advanced being stat array of 23, 22, 21, 20, 18, 16. This overwrites (eliminates and does not stack with) any previous ability adjustments, whether negative or positive, from race or templates. Inherent bonuses and character level bonuses remain.
For Kalak that leaves only three salient feats remaining.
By writing this down, I managed to organize my own thoughts. I will make the appropriate revisions.
I just took another look at DS 3.5E Core Rules. It’s the same thing that SeruZmaj linked in the first reply of this thread. There are levels for three of the Sorcerer Monarchs, although no statblocks.
Lalali‐Puy (LE stage III dragon, defiler 5/telepath 6/arch defiler 5/thrallherd 4/cerebremancer 5/Athasian dragon 2). Total: 32.
Nibenay (LE male stage IV dragon, defiler 5/seer 5/loremaster 10/cerebremancer 10/Athasian dragon 2). Total: 32.
Hamanu (LE male stage III dragon, defiler 5/psychic warrior 11/arch defiler 10/cerebremancer 5/Athasian dragon 4). Total: 35.
The levels are a lot more tightly packed than 4E, where the power levels of the SMs varied from pushover to hardest in the game.
I used ChatGPT to extrapolate the base levels of the Sorcerer Monarchs between editions, using the interesting case of Elminster as the 2E to 3.5e baseline. In 2E Elminster was 29th level, and in 3.5e his level went up to 35th. Here is my edited version of the output for brevity.
Let’s calculate the conversion factor:
35/29 = approximately 1.2069 (4 decimal place precision).
Then, we’ll use this conversion factor to convert the levels of the other characters from 2E to 3.5E.
Here’s how it would look for each character:
Kalak: 41 * 1.2069 = ~49.4839, rounding gives us 49.
Nibenay: 44 * 1.2069 = ~53.1036, rounding gives us 53.
Oba: 43 * 1.2069 = ~51.8967, rounding gives us 52.
Tectuktitlay: 41 * 1.2069 = ~49.4839, rounding gives us 49.
Abalach-Re: 41 * 1.2069 = ~49.4839, rounding gives us 49.
Andropinis: 42 * 1.2069 = ~50.6903, rounding gives us 51.
Daskinor: 41 * 1.2069 = ~49.4839, rounding gives us 49.
Oronis: 44 * 1.2069 = ~53.1036, rounding gives us 53.
Borys: 50 * 1.2069 = ~60.345, rounding gives us 60.
Dregoth: 49 * 1.2069 = ~59.1381, rounding gives us 59.
Hamanu: 43 * 1.2069 = ~51.8967, rounding gives us 52.
The resulting number does seem a bit excessive. It also doesn’t take into account the conversion guidelines for second (dual) classes. Unfortunately, these guidelines don’t handle the the third class that they have implicitly (“dragon”).
I asked it to perform a different calculation, using 27th level as the baseline.
Alright, to solve this, we’ll subtract the first 27 levels from each character’s total level and then reduce the remaining levels by one-third. Let’s do this:
- Kalak: 27 + 1/3 * (49 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 22 = 27 + 7 = 34
- Nibenay: 27 + 1/3 * (53 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 26 = 27 + 8 = 35
- Oba: 27 + 1/3 * (52 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 25 = 27 + 8 = 35
- Tectuktitlay: 27 + 1/3 * (49 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 22 = 27 + 7 = 34
- Abalach-Re: 27 + 1/3 * (49 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 22 = 27 + 7 = 34
- Andropinis: 27 + 1/3 * (51 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 24 = 27 + 8 = 35
- Daskinor: 27 + 1/3 * (49 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 22 = 27 + 7 = 34
- Oronis: 27 + 1/3 * (53 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 26 = 27 + 8 = 35
- Borys the Dragon: 27 + 1/3 * (60 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 33 = 27 + 11 = 38
- Dregoth: 27 + 1/3 * (59 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 32 = 27 + 10 = 37
- Hamanu: 27 + 1/3 * (52 - 27) = 27 + 1/3 * 25 = 27 + 8 = 35
So, applying the level adjustment you requested, we have the following levels:
- Kalak: 34
- Nibenay: 35
- Oba: 35
- Tectuktitlay: 34
- Abalach-Re: 34
- Andropinis: 35
- Daskinor: 34
- Oronis: 35
- Borys the Dragon: 38
- Dregoth: 37
- Hamanu: 35
This roughly matches the levels decided by Athas dot org epic bureau.
http://pandius.com/WotC/1035116.htm
This thread’s purpose is to gather fan input on the stats of Dregoth, Hamanu, Lalali-Puy and Nibenay. What ability scores, classes, feats, abilities, spells etc. do you picture them having? Assume class level range 40 for Dregoth and 30-35 for the three others (not including Champion of Rajaat template). We will use your input when building the sorcerer-monarchs, so do this seriously. If possible, base your rationale for your suggestions
For what it’s worth, Dregoth’s level in the conversion of Dregoth Ascending was level 38, while the algorithmic conversion here puts him at level 37.
Obviously, these are wildly different from the 4E calculations that I used as a baseline at the outset of this thread, and seem to me to be a faithful conversion of 2E levels to 3E levels.
What you won’t see in these builds is a lot of variety in terms of class levels. I believe I’ve managed to mitigate this with the salient feats system, which can create Sorcerer Monarchs with very different skillsets and inclinations. It’s easy, for example, to represent Hamanu under this system as a martial type Sorcerer Monarch, one that loves, and is good at, close melee combat.