Originally posted by Pennarin:
I also need feedback on this. Considering Jon’s comments on the Montare and its tactical feat, I was thinking about breaking down the Matched-Pair tactical feat and making three class abilities for the Matched-Pair PrC. Also I don’t like giving Dual Strike as a feat if it as a requirement, being Combat Reflexes. Also, would the requiorements of the Matched-Pair feat be made requirments of the PrC itself?
[size=4]Matched-Pair[/size]
Hit Die: d12.
Requirements:
To qualify to become a matched-pair (MaP), a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks, Sense Motive 6 ranks.
Feats: Combat Reflexes.
Special: Must form a gladiatorial fighting pair and survive a year of battles.
Class Skills:
The matched-pair’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
<br />Level BAB Fort Ref Will <br />--------------------------<br /> 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 <br /> 2 +2 +0 +3 +0<br /> 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 <br /> 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 <br /> 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 <br /> 6 +6 +2 +5 +2<br /> 7 +7 +2 +5 +2<br /> 8 +8 +2 +6 +2<br /> 9 +9 +3 +6 +3<br /> 10 +10 +3 +7 +3<br /> <br />Level Special Abilities <br />---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> 1 Teamwork, uncanny dodge <br /> 2 Aid another +1<br /> 3 Dual strike<br /> 4 Improved teamwork <br /> 5 Improved uncanny dodge<br /> 6 Aid another +2<br /> 7 Understanding<br /> 8 Matched-Pair<br /> 9 Anticipation<br /> 10 Aid another +3
Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The character gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.
Teamwork: The character gains the Teamwork feat, which allows you to aid an ally as a move equivalent action instead of as a standard action.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The character gains the Uncanny Dodge ability, provided he and his fighting partner are within line of sight and less than 10 feet from each other.
If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class (such as a brute/rogue), the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below).
Whip Proficiency: The montare receives an exotic weapon proficiency for the whip at 1st level.
Offensive Riding (Ex): The montare can focus his actions on offense while riding or driving. He can add a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls while taking a –4 to its Armor Class. The mount also gains a +20 ft. bonus to its speed and takes a –2 to its Reflex saves.
Aid Another (Ex): When using the aid another action in melee combat to help your fighting partner attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent, you increase the bonus on his next attack roll or to his AC against that opponent’s next attack by +1. That bonus increases to +2 at 5th-level and to +3 at 9th-level.
Dual Strike: The character receives the Dual Strike feat, from Sword & Fist. Note that to gain its advantages the character and an ally must both have the feat.
Improved Teamwork (Ex): You can now aid another as a free action.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The character gains the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability, provided he and his fighting partner are within line of sight and less than 10 feet from each other.
Understanding (Ex): Great experience of your partner’s fighting technique grants you a +2 insight bonus to attack rolls against any target that both you and your partner threaten.
Matched-Pair: The character gains the Matched-Pair tactical feat (see below for the new feat). The character must still meet the prerequisites for this feat.
Anticipation (Ex): The character and his partner now fight as one as they anticipate one another’s moves. The character can aid his partner as a free action two times per round; helping with two different attacks¯if the partner has more than one attack per round¯or helping defend against an opponent with multiple attacks.
Matched-Pair [Tactical]
You are trained with fighting with an ally that distracts the opponent, while you go in for the kill.
Prerequisite: Bluff 6 ranks, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: The Matched-Pair feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Disarm and Slash: When your ally attempts an Improved Disarm attack on the target you are both threatening, she receives a +6 bonus on the opposed attack roll to disarm the opponent. If successful, you get to make an attack of opportunity at a +4 circumstance bonus.
Bluff and Counter: When your ally attempts an Improved Feint on the target you are both flanking, she can do so as a free action, if she succeeds, the target is denied its Dexterity bonus for your remaining attacks as well as your partners.
Trip and Pounce: When your ally attempts an Improved Trip attack on the target you are both flanking, she receives a +6 bonus to her Strength check to trip the opponent. If successful, she gets to make an additional attack on the target without expending her normal attack just like the Improved Trip feat allows, plus you get to make an attack of opportunity at a +4 circumstance bonus.
Special: A fighter may select Matched-Pair as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
What the…grr…someone could have told me I copy/pasted the wrong PrC!! 
I finished revising the PrC, here it is. 
[size=4]Matched-Pair[/size]
“Leave my dwarf alone!”
- Quicksand, elven matched-pair
Matched-pairs are those gladiators that work ceaselessly to match their fighting techniques with those of another, for performing in the gladiatorial games event known as matched pairs fighting. It takes years to learn to read your partner’s body language and to predict its moves. Each pair is selected based on how well they complement each other’s skills.
Matched-pairs can be of any class or race, although most have levels in a warrior class. Exotic pairs―elf and dwarf, half-giant and halfling―are the most common matched-pairs found.
The time required to be put in by the pair precludes this class from being adopted by freeman; only stables with gladiator slaves can put in the time and training necessary to produce such a team. A stable owning a successful matched-pair gladiator will often assign to it another newly acquired matched-pair to better complete the duo. NPC matched-pairs encountered will often protect their fighting partner with their lives.
Hit Die: d12.
Requirements:
To qualify to become a matched-pair (MaP), a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks, Sense Motive 6 ranks.
Feats: Combat Reflexes.
Special: Must form a gladiatorial fighting pair and survive a year of battles.
Class Skills:
The matched-pair’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
<br />Level BAB Fort Ref Will <br />--------------------------<br /> 1 +1 +0 +2 +0 <br /> 2 +2 +0 +3 +0<br /> 3 +3 +1 +3 +1 <br /> 4 +4 +1 +4 +1 <br /> 5 +5 +1 +4 +1 <br /> 6 +6 +2 +5 +2<br /> 7 +7 +2 +5 +2<br /> 8 +8 +2 +6 +2<br /> 9 +9 +3 +6 +3<br /> 10 +10 +3 +7 +3<br /> <br />Level Special Abilities <br />---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> 1 Teamwork, uncanny dodge <br /> 2 Aid another +1, tactical maneuver<br /> 3 <br /> 4 Improved teamwork <br /> 5 Improved uncanny dodge<br /> 6 Aid another +2, tactical maneuver<br /> 7 Understanding<br /> 8 <br /> 9 Anticipation<br /> 10 Aid another +3, tactical maneuver
Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The character gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.
Teamwork: The character gains the Teamwork feat at 1st level, which allows you to aid an ally as a move equivalent action instead of as a standard action.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The character gains the Uncanny Dodge ability at 1st level, provided he and his fighting partner are within line of sight and less than 10 feet from each other.
If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class (such as a brute/rogue), the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge.
Aid Another (Ex): When using the aid another action in melee combat to help your fighting partner attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent, a 2nd level matched-pair increase the bonus on his next attack roll or to his AC against that opponent’s next attack by +1. That bonus increases to +2 at 5th level and to +3 at 9th level.
Tactical Maneuver (Ex): You are trained with fighting with a partner that distracts the opponent, while you go in for the kill. Each time you get this ability―at 2nd, 6th and 10th levels―you get to choose one of three tactical maneuvers that you learn. Each maneuver requires your partner to have a particular Improved feat, either Improved Disarm, Improved Feint or Improved Trip.
Disarm and Slash: When your partner attempts an Improved Disarm attack on the target you are both threatening, he receives a +6 bonus on the opposed attack roll to disarm the opponent. If successful, you get to make an attack of opportunity at a +4 circumstance bonus.
Bluff and Counter: When your partner attempts an Improved Feint on the target you are both flanking, he can do so as a free action. If he succeeds, the target is denied its Dexterity bonus for your remaining attacks as well as your partner’s.
Trip and Pounce: When your partner attempts an Improved Trip attack on the target you are both flanking, he receives a +6 bonus to his Strength check to trip the opponent. If successful, he gets to make an additional attack on the target without expending his normal attack just like the Improved Trip feat allows, plus you get to make an attack of opportunity at a +4 circumstance bonus.
Improved Teamwork (Ex): When reaching 4th level you can now aid another as a free action, once per round.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The character gains the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability when reaching 5th level, provided he and his fighting partner are within line of sight and less than 10 feet from each other.
Understanding (Ex): Great experience of your partner’s fighting technique grants you by 7th level a +2 insight bonus to attack rolls against any target that both you and your partner threaten.
Anticipation (Ex): At 10th level the character and his partner now fight as one as they anticipate one another’s moves. The character can aid his partner as a free action two times per round; helping with two different attacks―if the partner has more than one attack per round―or helping defend against an opponent with multiple attacks.
Originally posted by bengeldorn:
How often can you use this feat in a round? More than once or just once per round?
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Once per round. I edited it.
Thanks for that feedback Bengeldorn!
Originally posted by squidfur-:
Hey Penn, you copy/pasted the wrong PrC!! 
But seriously, just what the doctor ordered. Almost forgot about all these gladiator PrC’s (your’s and Nyt’s). They will most definately help out for the new campaign I’m starting. Thanx!!
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
You’ve really outdone yourself this time Penn . I love the feel of the class and the Tactical manuevers you’ve come up with.
[quote]Aid Another (Ex): When using the aid another action in melee combat to help your fighting partner attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent, a 2nd level matched-pair increase the bonus on his next attack roll or to his AC against that opponent’s next attack by +1. That bonus increases to +2 at 5th level and to +3 at 9th level.
Tactical Maneuver (Ex): You are trained with fighting with a partner that distracts the opponent, while you go in for the kill. Each time you get this ability―at 2nd, 6th and 10th levels―you get to choose one of three tactical maneuvers that you learn. Each maneuver requires your partner to have a particular Improved feat, either Improved Disarm, Improved Feint or Improved Trip.
Disarm and Slash: When your partner attempts an Improved Disarm attack on the target you are both threatening, he receives a +6 bonus on the opposed attack roll to disarm the opponent. If successful, you get to make an attack of opportunity at a +4 circumstance bonus.
Bluff and Counter: When your partner attempts an Improved Feint on the target you are both flanking, he can do so as a free action. If he succeeds, the target is denied its Dexterity bonus for your remaining attacks as well as your partner’s.
Trip and Pounce: When your partner attempts an Improved Trip attack on the target you are both flanking, he receives a +6 bonus to his Strength check to trip the opponent. If successful, he gets to make an additional attack on the target without expending his normal attack just like the Improved Trip feat allows, plus you get to make an attack of opportunity at a +4 circumstance bonus.
Understanding (Ex): Great experience of your partner’s fighting technique grants you by 7th level a +2 insight bonus to attack rolls against any target that both you and your partner threaten.
Anticipation (Ex): At 10th level the character and his partner now fight as one as they anticipate one another’s moves. The character can aid his partner as a free action two times per round; helping with two different attacks―if the partner has more than one attack per round―or helping defend against an opponent with multiple attacks.[/quote]
While I am really impressed with the class and its abilities, I think that you’ve got some issues with stacking abilities that might unbalance the class. Once you get to 10th level all these abilities can be used at the same time to grant a huge combat advantage to the matched pair.
So they get a +2 bonus to attack each, aid eachother for a +5 bonus for free twice each, and preform 3 potent special manuvers at the same time. So for instance one of you uses Improved Fient as a Free action denighing your target his dex bonus. Then one of you uses disarm and slash while the other grants him a +5 bonus (as a free action) to hit through the aid another ability. On your attack of opportunity your partner gives you a +5 bonus to hit with one of his aid another uses. Then the partner who didn’t use his standard action to disarm and slash uses his standard action to Trip and Pounce while his partner uses his second aid another to give him a +5 bonus to trip. Then you each get an attack of opportunity on the tripped opponent the tripper uses his second aid another ability to grant his partner a +5 bonus to hit with his second aid another use.
So what this breaks down to is:
- Opponent potentially denighed dex bonus to AC.
- Disarm Attempt at +13 above normal attack bonus, if opponent is disamed attack of opportunity at +11 above normal attack bonus.
- Trip Attempt at +13 above normal attack bonus, if opponent is tripped two attacks of opportunity at +6 (opponent prone) above normal attack bonus and +15 above normal attack bonus respectively.
- then you could both use move actions to move away if you wished.
So, you need make some changes. I would sugest the following:
- Specify that only one tactical manuver can be used each round.
- State that using a Tactical manuever counts as one use of the Aid Another ability for the assisting character.
- Eliminate the Understanding ability altogether or cap the increase to Aid Another at +3 (that is, only increase its effectiveness once).
- Eliminate the +4 circumstance bonus to the aatack of opportunity you recieve when your opponent preforms a sucessful trip using Trip and Pounce. You already recieve a +4 circumstance bonus for your opponent being prone, so this is redundant.
I also, have a suggestion for another Tactical manuever that plays off of the Improved Grapple feat.
Grapple and Stab: When your partner attempts a Improved Grapple attack again an opponent that you are both threatening, he recieves a +6 bonus on the opposed grapple check to grapple the opponent. If sucessful, you can attack your opponent without penalty or risk of hitting your partner. Your opponent is considered flat-footed and prone to your attacks, as long as your partner maintains the grapple.
Originally posted by squidfur-:
I think one thing to consider, though, is how often these bonus’s will apply. Both team-mates must be threatening the same opponent for one (which isn’t all that hard, but…). For things to go as smoothly as your talking about, both team-mates must have initiative scores that beat out their opponent’s, as well. Otherwise the opponent can simply use a move action to deny the out-of-sinc team-mate. Remember too, that these are abilities that won’t be fully realized until 15th level minimum.
Not to say that these abilities MIGHT be toned down a LITTLE, but I think this, along with the fact that the special maneuvers also require a feat prerequisite, can count for a lot.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
That class was the hardest one I ever had to design. Hmm, maybe the Montare was harder (since its yet unfinished! ).
The former “tactial feat”, now a tactical maneuver, is a design by NytCrawlr and all the credit goes back to him.
As for the abilities being too powerful, since a lot of them stack, is a possibility. If the feedback is good enough I could change the numbers.
As for using many tactical maneuvers at once, I wonder why its even considered: you only have 1 partner in your team besides you, and he must choose between the Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, or Improved Trip attack. Those attacks cannot be made in the same round, that you take levels in this PrC or not.
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
Not as written.
Bluff and counter is a Free action, thusly it doesn’t use up any part of either of your actions. Each of the paired fighters can make a standard action. They can each decide to use one of the other Tactical Manuevers. Because of this you can (with your partner) use all of the tactical manuevers in one round. One of you uses one the other uses the other, again Bluff and counter doesn’t count since its a free action. As written, merely threatening the same creature is all that is required to gain the bonuses from the tactical manuever. The “assisting” character isn’t required to expend any sort of action, except for the attack of opportunity that he benefits from if the manuever is successful (he grants the extra +2 to hit from the manuever either way) and doesn’t even have to use aid another. You are required to have Combat Reflexes to get into the class, so obviously you can make more than one attack of opportunity in a round, and the extra attack granted by the feat Improved Trip dosn’t count as an attack of opportunity.
As for the issue of intiative. All that has to be done, is for the partner to hold his action on the first round in order to act in unison with his partner, which would almost always be in the best interest of the pair. Then from that point on they would be on the same intiative. It doesn’t matter whether they have a higher intiative then their opponent, they can do all that I listed and take a move action to get into place so that they both threaten their opponent.
As the class is written only one teammate need to have the prerequisite feat, for the other to give the benefit of the Tactical maneuver. So if partner #1 has Improved Trip, and Partner #2 takes Trip and pounce; Partner #2 has Improved Disarm, and Partner #1 takes Disarm and Slash; and one of them has Improved Fient and the other takes Bluff and Counter; then they can allready preform all three manuevers in the same round. One of the partners would have to be 6th or higher in the class, but the other would only have to be 2nd level in the class, to be able to preform all three manuever in the same round. So if everything goes right you end up with a flat-footed, then disarmed, then prone opponent on the first round of combat who takes three attacks, then when they try to stand up at least one of the characters (and probably both of them) will still have another attack of opportunity to use.
Also, It just occured to me that you should require the feat Combat Expertise to get into the class, since all of the feats required from the Tactical Manuevers require that feat as a prerequisite.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Nyt, help! Can you make sense of the problems and propose a fix?
Nyt helped me a lot on that class.
The farthest thing from my mind, at any given time, is combat rules. It took me lots of energy to concentrate into a state that allowed me to understand the combat rules like a DM does, so I could craft abilities related to them.
Obviously, i failed in some places. Not surprising, considering this class is one of my first PrC.
Originally posted by nytcrawlr:
[quote]Nyt, help! Can you make sense of the problems and propose a fix?
Nyt helped me a lot on that class.[/quote]
yawn
I’ve got too much blood in my caffeine system, give me a few to rectify that and I will take a look.
:whatsthis
Originally posted by flip:
Two things I can see at the moment:
bluff and counter: Feint only drops the opponents AC for your next attack. Signular. You don’t get a full round’s worth of attacks like that. So, instead of “remaining attacks”, it’s just “next attack”
I forget which book introduced this, but there’s the concept of a Swift Action. You can only perform one Swift Action in a round. Casting a quickened spell is a Swift Action, for example. Likewise, manifesting a Quickened Power is a QA. You can manifest a QP, and cast a spell in the same round, but you cannot manifest a QP, cast a QS and cast/manifest a normal spell/power in a round. Only one Swift Action (regardless of what the action is) is allowed. other than the count limitation, it’s just like a Free Action.
Honestly, I would consider Teamwork as a requirement for the class, rather than as a 1st level bonus feat.
Sage is right about at least considering dropping the circiumstance bonuses. The fact that you get a AOO on any of these events is a boost in the first place.
Originally posted by nytcrawlr:
Yeah, I think this is a cool idea for a PrC, but it’s a bit too beefy now that I look at the things the Sage pointed out.
[quote]So, you need make some changes. I would sugest the following:
- Specify that only one tactical manuver can be used each round.
- State that using a Tactical manuever counts as one use of the Aid Another ability for the assisting character.[/quote]
I agree. And I also think that maybe you should do something else with Assistance, which is causing some of the problems as written.
I think it’s two powerful the way you have it written.
I say keep the Aid Another ability as is and maybe tie this somehow to the creation of the new Assistance ability while getting rid of the Understanding ability.
Yeah, that’s a bit too powerful. They can already get a AoO plus a +8 bonus to it as well!?
Just let them get the AoO and leave it as that.
[quote]I also, have a suggestion for another Tactical manuever that plays off of the Improved Grapple feat.
Grapple and Stab: When your partner attempts a Improved Grapple attack again an opponent that you are both threatening, he recieves a +6 bonus on the opposed grapple check to grapple the opponent. If sucessful, you can attack your opponent without penalty or risk of hitting your partner. Your opponent is considered flat-footed and prone to your attacks, as long as your partner maintains the grapple.[/quote]
I like it, though the last part seems redundant since they are already flat-footed due to the grapple.
Originally posted by nytcrawlr:
Agreed here, and I could of sworn you initially had this as a prereq., did you change that for some reason?
Originally posted by Kamelion:
Quick Action = Swift Action 
Originally posted by Pennarin:
Can’t recall, but the copy I have does not have Teamwork as a prerequisite. Good idea though.
All the help, and future help, is appreciated.