More Heresy: No, Oronis is not an avangion

Setting
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Thesis: Oronis is not the first avangion on Athas that we know of; that honor goes to Korgunard.

Oronis and Korgunard

Oronis faces a fundamental limitation in his potential desire to reverse his defiler metamorphosis. He cannot achieve this on his own. His nature as a defiler, and the inherent properties of defiling magic, make self-reversal impossible.

Core Principles

  1. Magical Incompatibility: Oronis practices defiling magic. This magic is fundamentally incompatible with the Preserver Metamorphosis. Defiling draws power from destruction; preserving draws power from life. Oronis has the “wrong” magic to cast the Preserver Metamorphosis I spell.

  2. Creation vs. Activation: Oronis can create the Preserver Metamorphosis I spell, but he cannot cast it. Creating a spell is intellectual; casting it requires the correct energy source. Oronis lacks that source.

  3. Oronis’s Facilitation and Need for Help: Oronis, while unable to use the spell himself, played a critical role by giving the Preserver Metamorphosis I spell to Korgunard. This act facilitated Korgunard’s metamorphosis into the first avangion. Oronis needs Korgunard to reverse his own Dragon Metamorphosis, which he cannot do himself.

  4. Korgunard’s Power and the Reversal Condition: Only an Avangion possesses the power source needed to reverse Oronis’s transformation, and Korgunard is that Avangion. Korgunard must possess more ranks in Avangion Metamorphosis than Oronis has in Dragon Metamorphosis for the reversal to be possible. Oronis has halted his transformation and is waiting for Korgunard to reach this necessary level of power.

  5. Oronis’s Taint: Oronis is tainted by defiling and he cannot cleanse himself. Oronis needs the intervention of an avangion.

Conclusion:

Oronis’s situation is defined by a magical law: a defiler cannot undo their own transformation. He is magically incompatible with the process of preservation. Korgunard’s active assistance, empowered by a greater number of Avangion Metamorphosis ranks, is an absolute prerequisite for any possibility of Oronis’s change. Oronis’s act of providing the Preserver Metamorphosis I spell to Korgunard was a crucial first step, but his own redemption hinges on Korgunard’s future power.

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I find this interesting. I like the concept that a defiler cannot purify themselves without outside help, much less an advanced one.

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In my campaigns I also run Oronis as a fake avangion for similar reasons, especially #1, 2 and 5. There is no Druid on Athas of high enough level to cleanse him through the ritual of blood. Did you forget Nerad as an Avangion previous to Korgunard?

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Apparently yes. There was also another avangion that was killed by a mob, if I recall correctly, in some flavour framing fiction. Do you remember which one that was?

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I believe you are thinking of Thokrat, who was it seems, for a fleeting moment, a threat to Androponis. However, Thokrat was actually a budding dragon, and not an avangion. After a long absence, upon revealing himself and his initial metamorphosis to the people of Balic, he was stoned to death by the horrified and disgusted mob, to the Dictator’s pleasure. This story can be found in Dragon Kings.

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In the 90s, I enjoyed Oronis…

For many reasons, he is one of the hardest leaps for me upon the debut of 2nd Box. As I have argued extensively elsewhere, it is difficult to imagine that the Dragon would fail to recognize the presence of New Kurn. The Levy was a requirement, and at the very least, even if Oronis hid New Kurn, the Levy would still have to be paid by Old Kurn. It would not make sense otherwise.

I side with Red King, that the transformation from dragon to avangion should be impossible. Dragon Kings says the metamorphosis is irreversible. Even with high magic, to me it would require psionic enchantments from a being more powerful than Oronis himself. This is not impossible, but would have to be explained. Perhaps character elements or spirits of the land might have helped him do several rituals to cleanse away the dragon… if such a thing is possible.

…

For me, due to his popularity and presence in our community, I reluctantly accept Oronis. But morally I would make him a much more complex figure. Even if New Kurn somehow stands, and he managed to deceive Borys for centuries, then Old Kurn would at least have had to pay the price for a millennia. The “good” king would have had no choice but to guarantee the Levy be paid, or else Borys would have destroyed him, with his city. Perpetuating diabolic evil for some potential later great good is quite the moral leap, but I suspect such a being would think himself beyond normal good and evil, right and wrong, as we can see it.

Personally, I speculate he was the third avangion. In the Preserver War, there was the “Great One,” a potentially fully metamorphosed avangion, the memory of which is lodged in the racial consciousness of all the kreen. Whatever happened to that being? Then there was Nerad, whom Borys destroyed. I speculate that at some point, if we accept this, that Oronis became the third. The others we know of are Korgunard and the Sage, from the Tribe of One series.

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Yup some good points. With Revised codifying the PP events and then adding new SK’s that did not bother to participate in the PP events made things shoehorned.

Par for the course for this setting there were lots of contradictions and stuff that wasnt fully thought out.
From what we know of the Dragon, he would not tolerated such dissent from his subordinates, less it encourage others. Or that the other SK’s would simply accept an increase in their levies because of the other two. Or that only the 7 SK’s attacked Dregoth when there were the other 4 (Sielba, Kalidma, Oronis and Daskinor [or that they had no other names in their cleansing war titles] the list goes on and on. [Although I enjoyed the PP novels back in my day, I hate that they [and their lore] were baked into canon so thoroughly and preferred more ambiguity.

As for Avangions, there was also Amiska from the short story “Service” by Lynn Abbey.

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So, I’m probably among the most lore-ignorant of the Athas community, so please correct me if my shaky recall is way off base.

I seem to recall that the moons are supposedly life filled? At least one of them? Which, iirc, some here were commenting that it ran counter to the general Sword and Sandals theme prominent in Athas.

Would it be possible that the Great One retreated to one (or both) of the moons and set up whatever passes as paradise from its mutated perspective?

What about the other side of the planet? Or would that be problematic with the whole sludge thing that consumed the oceans? Again, iirc.

As a total side comment, the SKs really need to eat rail gun shells to the head from orbit.

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In my game, Oronis was a once lover and lieutenant to Borys, making him conveniently left out of a lot of the grief he gives to the other Sorcerer Monarchs. Borys currently considers Oronis weak and a non-threat. He would have no issues killing him if it meant he had some benefit from the action… but doesn’t really have the need in my campaign currently.

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Ooooh, I like the twist of him being Borys’s one time lover. I don’t like him as a lieutenant, but I’m going to find a way for my Avangion Council to discover the lover angle. That could certainly explain a few things. I’m also liking the idea of him actually still being a Dragon, hiding behind illusions until someone can actually figure out how to change him. I’ll still roll it with requiring a druid as well.

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Great discussion fellas! Highly compelling, and a very fun angle to take for a campaign!

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I continually cannot parse how Oronis would function as a sorcerer-king, or exist at all, during the times of the Prism Pentad.

There are two primary challenges to him existing at this time:

  1. Oronis was not present for the Dragon’s summons during the events of the Cerulean Storm. Every former Champion was commanded to be present, and so they were. At least we have manageable, halfway believable excuses for Dregoth (KIA) and Daskinor (mentally unstable). What was Oronis’ excuse? If Nibenay showed up, the Shadow King himself, unable to proffer an excuse for absence, what foolish reason do we imagine Oronis had? (Unfortunate that the writers of 2nd Box did not consider this and many such other concerns).
  2. Oronis had to pay the Levy. I believe any excuse about the size of his city would have been unacceptable to Borys and the other Champions. If Oronis could not maintain the Levy, for any reason whatsoever, surely the Dragon would have destroyed Oronis and his city, thereby making a grave example of what happened if any of them failed in their task. Can we imagine, under any circumstances, an avangion voluntarily going along with the annual Levy

I don’t know if I could stomach it, but at least Killer_DM’s concept of making Keltis the Dragon’s former lover is some sort of explanation, though I speculate that even in such circumstances, the collective Champions would highly resent any of their number having an “exemption” regarding paying the Levy.

I used to love the idea of New Kurn, and Oronis being the last best bastion of hope…

Perhaps he staged his own death somehow, and old Kurn has been destroyed by Borys. How he would have fooled Borys in this is hard to imagine…

As he has become so beloved, and I myself have a biased fondness for the character, I believe I shall try to maintain him. To keep things much as described in 2nd Box, I could only venture that Oronis might have been compelled to pay the Levy until FY10, perhaps divining somehow that there would be no need to pay the Levy after this year. Perhaps Oronis cynically sacrificed all criminals, and all the disgenic, sickly, perverted and malevolent, paying the Levy with these until he had no other option.

Perhaps Oronis hid away New Kurn with profound psionic enchantments, secreting the city away to such an extent that even Borys would not detect its location upon first inspection. Perhaps, when the events of the Prism Pentad hit their apex and the Champions were summoned, Oronis did not appear, and indeed could not be found, Borys electing to deal with him after the emergency with the Tyrians was put to rest.

If this is the case, Oronis remains a tainted figure, and even if an avangion, he is still capable of allowing under his rule great evils. A figure much beyond the normal bounds of “good” and “evil” (or so he would likely think), he like the Champions views life very differently. Indeed, even the evil of the Levy existed to prevent a yet worse evil (Rajaat’s freedom and the subsequent genocides), so was not the Levy arguably an unfortunately necessary act?

I doubt much that the Champions regularly convened, or personally conversed. Discussions, if they had to occur, might have been accomplished with the Way. Perhaps 500 years of avangion metamorphosis could have been possible.

Whatever the case, I increasingly do not see Oronis as a stereotypical “good” avangion. If my suggestions above occurred, still thousands of his own subjects may have died to feed the Levy, and perhaps we can ascribe to Oronis notions of extreme enforcement of racial and ethical hygiene to choose who was sacrificed, which he of course would be immune to. Indeed, I might even classify him as an evil being, an evil avangion, for though he may act good and do many good works, he is capable of great evils, and carried them out recently. Even if out of some necessity for some greater good, they were monstrous deeds. In his profound enhanced wisdom he may truly understand this of himself, and perhaps he is beyond good and evil as we commonly understand such things, but I think he will continue to be willing to allow great evils to pass, and therefore remains a dark figure.

It is possible that much of Rajaat’s theories live on in New Kurn, and in the heart of its ruler. Perhaps he even wishes to return Athas to the Blue Age, and would be willing to annihilate his population if it meant achieving that. The world would be healed, he might imagine, with he as an avangion being of course an exception, presiding over a world reborn.

Any thoughts, on an evil Oronis?

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I’m not sure why the command in the Cerulean Storm is such a major point for you, here.

He was commanded, he didn’t show up… but it’s not like they had a bunch of time to run everyone down. Nibenay is right there; even for the Dragon, Kurn is not close. Writing off Kurn seems to have been a logistical choice by Borys, because it’s way the hell and gone, and almost completely out of contact with the Tyr region.

I go with the pretty basic “Kurn is too damn far, and on the other side of a crazy person.”

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You might recall most all the Champions were LE. The entire Rebellion and subsequent Imprisonment depended on the iron loyalty and dedication of the coup members.

Sachs and Wyan were executed for not joining the Rebellion, and it seems the sorcerer-kings lived in absolute fear of Body’s, who as Custodian of the Black Sphere necessarily demanded the absolute obedience of the subordinate monarchs. He had to, in order to keep the Prison running.

A single act of defiance would surely have been dealt with very harshly, for if one defiance were permitted, others might follow.

It seems to me that if Oronis did not appear rather immediately after being summoned, then Borys might have very well taken the time to punish Oronis, and severely. If Oronis wanted to pretend he was unreachable, or out of comma somehow, etc., that would have been no excuse to Borys. The summons was made, and Oronis was demanded to appear.

In my mind Borys would have appeared at Kurn, leveled the city and defiled its inhabitants to ash, if only as an object lesson. If Oronis was not there or could not be found, no matter. Borys would have made his object lesson, and Oronis would have a death sentence on his head to keep the other monarchs in line.

It was an imperial order, clearly. I imagine the Dragon reserved such summons for quite rare occasions, but it is clear Borys remained the Leader of the Revolt. Several times his authority is referenced in the Prism Pentad, and all the kings obey. To disobey risks their city and their lives. Therefore, some explanation for Oronis’ absence in the Cerulean Storm is necessitated.

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I just figured that Borys put a retributive visit on his calendar for after Rajaat has been reimprisoned.

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Yeah, I do not think Borys had time to go level Kurn during the events of CS, but had he not been killed he might well have done so afterward.

I don’t think Borys or any other SK could have learned he was an avangion without personally going to check on him (I doubt any of their minions would recognize the signs that someone is an avangion: their existence is probably a very deadly secret.) Oronis, and indeed all the SKs (and Mind Lords and anyone else on that level of magical or psionic power) would IMO be constantly protected from divination by mind blank, psionic mind blank, an amulet, etc.

It also seems likely to me that Oronis put an epic spell/psionic enchantment anti-divination ward over his whole area, and he’s likely not the only SK to do so. Rise and Fall of a Dragon King has some kind of ward working off Urik’s spirit of the land or something. The Mind Lords probably did some psionic equivalent to keep Keltis’s spells from detecting again once the lizardmen came out of stasis (the way that’s written, they may already have had an anti divination barrier around the whole valley and that’s why Keltis had to come inside to check for lizardmen). Daskinor’s paranoia makes him another likely candidate.

(Another point: I think the Champions showed up not just because Borys ordered them to, but becauspping Rajaat’s return was their #1 goal. I don’t think threats of destruction were really needed. Oronis, OTOH, couldn’t show up without risking revealing he was actually an avangion: he had to hope the others could deal with the situation.)

On the other hand … Borys turned back from Eldaarich for some reason. It is possible IMO that he was genuinely afraid, and while never returning to the Forgotten North lied to the other SKs that he had killed both of them and leveled both cities for refusing to pay the Levy (to discourage any other SK from finding out about whatever Daskinor had). Presumably he would have used magic and/or psionics to prevent the SKs from discovering the lie using divination - unless Oronis and Daskinor had already warded their areas, in which case he didn’t need to do anything. Probably not even lie; just the knowledge that Borys had gone up there, come back without a Levy, and no other evies were coming from there would lead them to draw the conclusion he wanted.

This would explain why the other Champions were not angry about exemption from the Levy: they didn’t know about it.

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You’re really over-thinking this.

The reason he, or Daskinor didnt show up, is because they werent invented yet.

Its the same reason they, nor Kalid-Ma, were present for Dregoths execution. Because the semi-official Kevin Melka timeline wasnt out yet.

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Absolutely Xelu. That is the real-world reason.

But then it falls to DMs who are considering utilizing such beings, or who is considering incorporating them into the game world, how their existence makes sense if we take the Prism Pentad as canon.

Hence the meta-discussion.

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It may simply be a greater investment in blood and treasure than can be stomached at this point, the amount of soldiers, templars, defilers, and mindbenders lost to the secrets and defenses gathered and built by a SK over many centuries may make it impossible to fulfill the Levy quota long-term. In Daskinor’s case he has a potentially unlimited supply of extraplanar fiends that could be brought to bear/break through into Athas if his internal vigil were to ever end. I somewhat suspect Keltis may have an agreement/understanding with the Mind Lords as well… It’s also plausible they’re just waiting there as emergency meat…
Edit: Borys lacking the Dark Lens may pose a particular problem in regards to the northern two SKs. The presence of Nexus is also worth consideration

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This is well considered WingofCoot, I appreciate it. Some thoughts:

Yeah, I do not think Borys had time to go level Kurn during the events of CS, but had he not been killed he might well have done so afterward.

Indeed. It is a solid response. And he could have said addressed it later, which obviously he never got around to doing. To me, Borys would brook no such disobedience. To keep the others inline, I speculate he might have thought it worth immediate retribution. Appearing before Kurn, he might have kept the other SKs waiting upon Oronis’ non-acknowledgment, and have demanded before the gates of the city the appearance of its sorcerer-king. When no one arrived as demanded, he might have leveled the city right then and there, taking all its life force to feed the Prison, and to serve as an object lesson to the remaining SKs: defiance is not an option. The threat from Tithian possessing the Dark Lens, and the possibility (however slim) that Rajaat might be freed was very serious. ALL known remaining Champions of sound mind were required. No dissent would or could be tolerated.

It also seems likely to me that Oronis put an epic spell/psionic enchantment anti-divination ward over his whole area, and he’s likely not the only SK to do so.

Indeed, the only way Oronis makes sense at all is if New Kurn is totally shielded somehow, and probably very clevelry to avoid Borys’ suspicion, and his own avangion nature being completely hidden. To me, only with all his power and cleverness, utilized flawlessly to the nth degree, could Oronis have pulled this off for 500 years. I doubt Borys cared too much about things as long as the Levy was paid. Indeed, the Levy being a profoundly evil act, might have ironically been the main guarantor convincing Borys that Oronis was still on the same team.

(Another point: I think the Champions showed up not just because Borys ordered them to, but becauspping Rajaat’s return was their #1 goal. I don’t think threats of destruction were really needed. Oronis, OTOH, couldn’t show up without risking revealing he was actually an avangion: he had to hope the others could deal with the situation.)

Indeed, Borys’ authority over the SKs was not absolute in that they were utterly servile to him. They greatly respect and fear Borys, if only for his power, but I do recall Androponis telling Tithian that even if the Dragon himself ordered his fleet out, that he would defy him in the circumstances Tithian originally presented to him. When summoned to Samarrah, the SKs came because they obeyed their commander, but indeed also because most of them surely had some understanding of the shared threat. Oronis not showing up would have been a threat of its own kind. Why wouldn’t he show up, in such grave circumstances?

Though it is wrong to think the SKs or even the Dragon were omniscient, given the great cost of the Levy, a lie from Borys that the two northern cities were no longer paying their share because they had been destroyed would have been uncovered I think soon enough. And besides, given his awesome power, I doubt much Borys would have stooped to lie about such a thing. Oronis may have shielded New Kurn, but not Old Kurn, which surely had to have been his source of the Levy. As to Daskinor, we may accept that if he proved to be of genuinely unsound mind, but ran things well enough to continue to provide the Levy, then he may have been granted an exemption… a loose cannon among such powerful beings could have been more danger than it was worth. And ultimately, we presume he provided the Levy.

The Levy must have been of great importance to each city: a huge, never-ending, and extremely costly annual endeavor. Any “exemptions” on the Levy would have surely been unacceptable to the SKs, almost regardless of the reason. They excess would have fallen on them to pay, and perhaps a portion would have fallen on the Dragon to collect in his ravages in the wastelands. Even with his nearly supreme power and authority, that type of exception would have shaken Borys’ right to lead, impugned his integrity and reputation as overlord, and if sustained any such exemption might have risked his assassination at the hands of all remaining SKs combined.

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