But that might make Templars OP vs. other classes. PrC abilities (though sometimes under-powered or underwhelming) are balanced by the entry requirements.
IF you’re right about Templars being underpowered, those PrC abilities could be grafted on via PF Sorc. Bloodlines (but they might need to be pruned baxk a bit, IDK).
So…Yeah, sure. Maybe.
IDK about Inquisitor.
I glanced at Inquisitor: it doesn’t seem to fit/ map to 2e Templar any better (or worse) than 4e Warlock did/ does.
Class fluff goes out the window when ported over, only ability descriptions and mechanics matter (IMO); the fluff can be rewritten.
These abilities are definitely low powered. They would also be spread out over 20 levels without any additional buffing. Here are the Servant of Badna abilities.
Badna Babble (Ex): Even if the legends of Badna are but constructions of Abalach-Re’s, the servant of Badna uses the
teachings to their full advantage. She gains a +1 bonus to Bluff and Intimidate checks at 1st level. At every odd level thereafter, the
bonus increases by +1.
Riot Control (Sp): Servants of Badna are used to dealing with riots. When the servant of Badna casts spells with the
(Compulsion) descriptor requiring a Will save, such as calm emotions, the save DC increases by 2.
Subterfuge (Sp): Raam is a chaotic city where not even templars feel safe in the streets, thus they have learnt the art of
subterfuge. Servants of Badna can alter their appearances as per the disguise self spell once per day, granting a +10 bonus to
Disguise checks. The duration of this ability is 10 minutes/class level.
Skitterish (Ex): Servants of Badna are paranoid, expecting ambushes and assaults in any situation. They gain a +2 bonus to
initiative. This bonus stacks with the Improved Initiative feat.
Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability functions exactly like the rogue special ability of the same name in the Player’s Handbook.
Immune to Surprise (Ex): The servants of Badna’s paranoia eventually results in that they are never caught off-guard. From
8th level, a servant of Badna can always act in the surprise round. However, the servant of Badna loses sanity, reflected in a
permanent 2 point Wisdom loss, which cannot be restored, not even by a miracle or wish spell.
Voice of Badna (Su): Once per day the servant of Badna can use greater shout as the spell. The save DC is 19 + the servant of
Badna’s Charisma modifier.
Definitely not overpowered and a lot weaker than the pathfinder bloodlines. The other PrCs for templars are much the same.
Ok, you’re right. I’m convinced.
I really liked the inquisitor as a stand-in for a Templar.
I’m re-reading the abilities in the 2e original boxed set and there are a lot of abilities that involve accusing an enemy to send them off to imprisonment. It seems to play out one of these scenarios there will always be the potential of immediate combat involved.
I think with the right inquisitor archetype and abilities selects you can create a decent Templar our if the PF1E class.
I’m just looked at the following inquisitions that are selectable instead of a domain and they seemed appealing to provide crunch for the abilities.
Execommunication
Heresy
Sedition
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/inquisitions/inquistions-paizo/
Alternatively. There is the War-Priest class. Which is kind of a customizable Paladin of sorts. It allowing you to play evil or neutral divine warrior that gets a domain and weapon specific to a deity (SM). It could also be played as a viable Templar.
I discovered an old write up of a revised templar class by Sysane. It can be mined for ideas. Interestingly, it uses the warmage style addition of spells to its spell list as it levels up, which is what I was thinking of also.
Weird that the Learming and bonus feats got left off the final version- isn’t Sysane Bryan Bock? He’s listed as an author of the 3.5e rules…
Not so weird at all. That post is from 2007 and all of the Athas dot org products were supposed to get a revision in light of near completion of the 3.5e line from WotC.
Edit: perhaps you are right. When exactly was DS3 Core Rules published? I could have sworn it was long before 2007. Yet people are discussing secular authority in those posts and asking about what it will look like.
@Sysane care to clarify this?
The 2003 release of the DS rules has Secular Authority for the Templar.
I mean the first release. This one:
http://athas.org/products/ds3/documents/45
It has it right in there as an ability, not a feat.
“Secular Authority: Once per day per templar level, a templar can use secular authority within his city state. Depending on the ranks he has in the Diplomacy skill, a templar can order slaves to do his bidding, requisition troops, enter the homes of freemen and nobles and have these arrested. Failure to comply with a templar’s demands is usually sanctioned with fines, imprisonment, outlaw status, and possibly execution.”
And the footer of the page has the 2003 date.
So, what happens if you give the feat Secular Authority to a pathfinder Inquisitor or Warpriest?
I combined my templar with Sysane’s templar while incorporating suggestions by Flip, and taking some inspiration from the pathfinder sorcerer. Finally, I added a couple of new features. Here is the PDF version.
Templar (Tpr)
Hit Die
d8.
Requirements
To qualify to become a templar, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment
Within one step of patron sorcerer king on moral (good/evil) axis.
Class Skills
Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Concentration, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Literacy, Profession (any), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Templars are proficient in all simple weapons. Since templar training involves some education in warfare, templars receive two martial weapons proficiencies. Templars are proficient in light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields).
Sigil (Sp): Every templar receives a sigil that is the sign of their rank and station as a templar within their city’s templarate. The form of the sigil is unique to each city state but is always unmistakable for what it is. The sigil serves as your divine focus and allows you to use the spell-like powers arcane mark, purify food and drink, and slave scent a combined total of times equal to 3 + your Cha modifier. These spell-like powers do not count against your total of spells per day.
Spellcasting
You cast divine spells, which are drawn from the templar spell list on page 138 of Athas.org’s “Dark Sun 3”. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the templar’s spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. See table T2.
To cast a templar spell, you must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell’s level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a templar’s spell is 10 + the spell’s level + the templar’s Cha modifier. Like other spellcasters, a templar can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. The base daily allotment is given the Table. In addition, you receive bonus spells for a high Charisma score (PH 8).
You use your sorcerer king’s sigil as divine focus.
Sorcerer Monarch Spheres: A templar chooses two spheres (a sphere is a domain without the granted power) from among those belonging to his Sorcerer Monarch. The spells of the two spheres selected is added to your templar class list at the level you can cast the spells. A sphere is not a domain; therefore, you do not get the granted power.
Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd level, you can add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a spell from the cleric list and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.
You gain another new spell at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.
| Sorcerer-Monarch | Spheres |
|---|---|
| Abalach-Re | Death, War, Chaos, Charm, Lust |
| Andropinis | Death, War, Law, Nobility, Fate |
| Borys | Death, War, Destruction, Protection, Spell |
| Daskinor | Death, War, Chaos, Madness, Tyranny |
| Dregoth | Death, War, Destruction, Glory, Deathbound |
| Hamanu | Death, War, Strength, City, Courage |
| Kalak | Death, War, Magic, Trickery, Pride |
| Lalali-Puy | Death, War, Animal, Plant, Elf |
| Nibenay | Death, War, Shadow, Mind, Force |
| Oronis | Death, War, Knowledge, Protection, Community |
| Tectuktitlay | Death, War, Glory, Strength, Mysticism |
| Kalid-Ma | Death, War, Knowledge, Law, Luck |
| Pennarin | Death, War, Strength, Glory, Inquisition |
| Sielba | Death, War, Charm, Protection, Pride |
| Sacha | Death, War, Trickery, Nobility, Mind, Knowledge |
| Wyan | Death, War, Nobility, Magic, Tyranny |
| Irikos | Death, War, Passion, Slime, Suffering |
| Myron | Death, War, Chaos, Pride, Protection |
Secular Aptitude (Ex): At 1st level, you gain Secular
Authority as a bonus feat. In addition, you receive a
competence bonus to Secular Authority checks equal to
half your templar level.
Craft Trinket (Ex): At 1st level, you gain Craft Trinket as a bonus feat.
Mitigate Corruption (Ex): You can mitigate the legal consequences of being caught being bribed or otherwise being financially corrupt by clever dissimulation. At 1st level you may take bribes or corruptly appropriate up to 1 Cp per day without legal consequences (you must still accept the bribes or illegally appropriate funds – the money does not come automatically). For every templar level you have beyond first level, this legal immunity to financial corruption increases by 1 Cp per day. This does not protect the templar from the consequences of other kinds of official corruption, like treason.
Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any templar, starting at 2nd level and regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his sorcerer king through his sigil (PH 33).
A good templar (or a neutral templar who worships a good sorcerer king) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil templar (or a neutral templar who worships an evil sorcerer king) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral templar of a neutral sorcerer king must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good templar or an evil templar. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.
You may attempt to turn or rebuke undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Templarate Training: At 4th-level, a templar receives a bonus feat reflecting his privileged position and the training that comes along with it. These bonus feats must be drawn from the following: Alertness, Brew Potion, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Improved Turning, Investigator, Leadership, Linguist, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Favorite, Improved Sigil, Dissimulated, Faithful Follower, Field Officer, Scribe Scroll, or Skill Focus. A templar must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat. The templar gains another bonus feat at 8th level, 12th level, 16th level, and 20th level.
High Templar (Ex): At 14th level you are either a high templar, or merely respected or feared by other templars. Against templars and creatures with the secular authority feat, you gain a +2 to skill checks of Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff and Sense Motive. These bonuses do not apply to other templars with this ability.
Unbreakable Bond (Ex): At 20th level (or 20th templar caster level, whichever comes first), the bond with the vortice from which the templar draws divine magic becomes unbreakable. The vortice is always open to the templar, and even the templar’s Sorcerer Monarch patron cannot stop the templar from receiving spells. Even the death of the Sorcerer Monarch does not stop the templar from receiving spells. The templar becomes aware of this strengthened bond, but the Sorcerer Monarch has no special way of knowing unless the Sorcerer Monarch cuts off the templar from spells and notices that the templar can still cast spells.
| Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1st | +0 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Secular aptitude, Sorcerer Monarch spheres, Sigil, Craft trinket, Mitigate Corruption | 5 | 3 | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — |
| 2nd | +1 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Turn/Rebuke undead | 6 | 4 | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — |
| 3rd | +2 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Advanced Learning | 6 | 5 | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — |
| 4th | +3 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Templarate Training | 6 | 6 | 3 | — | — | — | — | — | — | — |
| 5th | +3 | +4 | +1 | +4 | 6 | 6 | 4 | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | |
| 6th | +4 | +5 | +2 | +5 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | — | — | — | — | — | — | |
| 7th | +5 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Advanced Learning | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | — | — | — | — | — | — |
| 8th | +6/+1 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Templarate Training | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | — | — | — | — | — |
| 9th | +6/+1 | +6 | +3 | +6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | — | — | — | — | — | |
| 10th | +7/+2 | +7 | +3 | +7 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | — | — | — | — | |
| 11th | +8/+3 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Advanced Learning | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | — | — | — | — |
| 12th | +9/+4 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Templarate Training | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | — | — | — |
| 13th | +9/+4 | +8 | +4 | +8 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | — | — | — | |
| 14th | +10/+5 | +9 | +4 | +9 | High Templar | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | — | — |
| 15th | +11/+6/+1 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Advanced Learning | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | — | — |
| 16th | +12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Templarate Training | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | — |
| 17th | +12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | — | |
| 18th | +13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | |
| 19th | +14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Advanced Learning | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 |
| 20th | +15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Templarate Training, Unbreakable Bond | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 |
A templar feat here. This feat follows the form of replacement feats, which provide some fluff/flavour and a mechanical benefit that serves to meet prerequisites.
Post your templar feats here. The templar feats that you create do not have to follow this pattern.
Kleptocrat [General]
You are unusually corrupt, even by the standards of the templarate. Your ability to act with impunity grows, and you excel in the production of forged documents.
Prerequisites: Mitigate Corruption class feature.
Benefit: Your ability to corruptly appropriate money without consequences via your Mitigate Corruption class feature doubles in Cp value. Furthermore, you get a +3 bonus on all forgery checks.
Special: Kleptocrat counts as Skill Focus (forgery) for the purpose of meeting any requirement or prerequisite.
EDIT 1: Another feat. Similar to the Extra Spell feat, this one is for templars.
Extra Templar Spell [General]
You are more focused than most templars on learning new spells
Prerequisites: Advanced Learning class feature.
Benefit: This feat works exactly like advanced learning. You can add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a spell from the cleric list and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.
Special: You can select this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a new spell.
EDIT 2: New Templar Spell, Substitute Sphere. Its Substitute Domain (from complete champion) with the serial numbers filed off and modified for the fact that Templars do not get a granted power.
Substitute Sphere
Transmutation
Level: Templar 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 day/level (D)
The power of your Sorcerer Monarch courses through you, replacing what you once knew with different ideas and abilities.
Upon casting substitute sphere, you can swap one of your current spheres for another that your Sorcerer Monarch offers. You gain access to any of its spells that you can cast. While substitute sphere is in effect, you lose the spells of the sphere to which you have given up access.
I like what you’ve done here.
That said, why are you even screwing around with Spheres? Its a bunch of extra language and a ‘new’ ability/concept to deal with when you could just say: “Templars do not EVER receive the Granted Power from any of their Domains.”
I thought the general design philosophy was its always easier to limit an existing ability than introduce a new one.
It’s a shout out to 2E when Templars had major access to the Sphere of Cosmos, making them the best clerics in the game.
I want to remove any ambiguity over whether Templars have domains or not, because a lot of feats, spells and abilities interact with domains and calling something a domain, while not granting the power, creates confusion.
I agree with you. But because of the reasons I mention above, I want to dodge any potential confusion. Who knows how someone will interpret a templar that “has a domain” but “does not possess the granted power”? It’s more trouble than its worth.
Finally, there is one more thing. Domains are for deities or legitimate sources of divine energy, like the elemental planes. Sorcerer Monarchs having “spheres” instead of domains is another point of differentiation. You can imagine clerics outside of the jurisdiction of the city states pointing out to their followers that Templars do not have granted powers from domains, and that means that they are fake clerics. The city dwelling clerics might think it too, but would not dare say it out loud.
Yeah, i got the Spheres reference - its fun.
I see you point, but I’m not sure its worth the effort…
It’s a lot less effort than the issues at the table caused by players telling the DM that they can take domain based feats et al because their Templars have “domains”. Spend 5 minutes on the CharOp boards and you’ll quickly see why leaving anything unclear is a mistake.
Well, the whole thing feels kinda un-worth it - just give them the Domain, they’re all non-elemental ones anyway. A granted power isn’t THAT much of a boost, and this was partly predicated on Templars being underpowered.
But, I’m sure you have reasons - they’re probably even good reasons. Whichever.
Its a cool class, good work.
Part of it is that I don’t want to give them the domain slot, or restrict their “domain” (sphere) spells to being cast the domain slot. What appears to be a nerf at first glance actually isn’t. The spheres are about fleshing out their access to spells and allowing differentiation between templars. Ditto the advanced learning.
Cheers. I am actually satisfied with this one. This is my 4th attempt at a templar, I think.
Well THAT is a pretty fair reason.