The doc as stated referred to the paraelemental plane of obsidian. If that’s the case, there’s precedent for other paraelemental planes beyond what’s listed.
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And the way the undead are centric to that unpublished bit, it seems to have ties with the negative material. Which brings me to the paraelemental plane of Sun… which is also a star providing Athas heat, life, etc… Does this make sun opposite to obsidian?
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The Gray should serve as both the negative material plane and the planar barrier. I think we can agree that we were left with a mess lol.
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The mess is even bigger than you think. What SotDL actually says is this:
Between the Paraelemental Plane of Magma and the Quasielemental Plane of Quartz lies the Demiplane of Obsidian.
In 1E/2E there was no Quasielemental Plane of Quartz. Perhaps its the Athasian equivalent of Mineral? Demiplanes also exist within the Ethereal, not the Elemental planes (IIRC).
I agree with BDMDragon - we don’t need more planar randomness (we have enough debates about the published material as it is). Get rid of the DP of Obsidian and have it be a part of Magma, maybe a specific border area with Earth or Mineral/Quartz.
Can anyone who’s worked on the 3E port of SotDL advise what route the Templarate took?
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Uh oh. This is from EAF&W.
Dragon Kings gives us a different picture of the Para and Quasi Elemental planes.
Frankly speaking, Sun, Rain, and Silt never made sense to me. I prefer what I see in Dragon Kings, that is Ooze, Ice and Smoke. Magma stays the same. Therefore a sun cleric is a fire cleric. Rain is water. Silt is earth. And these just monikers.
To have the Quasi-Elemental planes, you need the Positive and Negative Energy Planes.
Here is the planes graphic from Dragon Kings. Its a tacit admission of what we all know - that Athas, in 2E terms, is an Alternative Prime Material Plane.
Here is my homebrew about how to reach the Great Wheel. It ain’t easy! Inspired by the check from the Defilers and Preservers supplement.
| Spellcraft DC | Task |
|---|---|
| 100 | If you succeed in this spellcraft check when casting a spell that facilitates planar travel, you can breach The Gray to reach the dimension containing the planes of the Great Wheel. Add 10 to the DC for each additional creature you take along with you. |
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We’ll have to agree to disagree. I like the Athas-specific Paraelements. The paradigm that what happens on Athas is reflected in the Elemental balance is one I like - Water and Rain are weak, Sun and Silt are ascendant (and makes the Cerulean Storm that much more interesting).
My personal theory is that some sort of cataclysm, either in the pre-history of Athas, or connected to Rajaat’s draining of the sun and wars, altered the elemental balance. Potentially that’s when the Positive and Negative Energy planes went bye-bye. A chunk of Positive/Radiance collided with the Paraelement of Smoke, turning it into white hot plasma, the Plane of Ice melted, becoming the Plane of Rain and Ooze dessicated into Silt.
That messy situation allows for all kinds of variant Quasi Planes but I’ve not fleshed those out yet.
That’s an understatement mate! DC100? Yikes!
My personal view would be to make it a Knowledge (the Planes) check in addition to the Spellcraft one (knowing how to manipulate arcane energy is useless if you’re ignorant of the planes).
Epic characters, and those of 18th-20th level should have a reasonable chance of being able to punch through the Gray. For making it to the Astral, I’d put the DC for the Knowledge and Spellcraft checks at about DC40 or 45. That means a 20th level character (with 23 skill ranks in both skills) still needs something other than taking 20 to get through (Skill Focus, some other feat or something else entirely). For the Inner Planes (if you hold the Gray to extend to them as well), something along the lines of DC25 - it should be much easier for a mid-level cleric to reach his patron elemental plane for example.
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My personal theory is that the Gray was created by a planar accident which caused some of the Negative Material Plane spilled into both the Ethereal and Astral Planes. Small amounts of both negative and positive energy seep through to Athas from quasi-elemental planes.
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It stands to reason that you have to know that planes beyond The Gray actually exist. And you’d have to know a few of the details. So the Knowledge (the planes) check would be a one time check for each plane beyond The Gray.
The measure I use for DC is credulity. If the Sorcerer Monarch’s can pierce through the far side of the The Gray (as opposed to simply entering the The Gray, which should be unhindered), then they would have already done so. Such ease renders the Planar Gate a mere trinket.
That said, you can go freely to the Ethereal, the Black, and the Athasian Inner Planes freely as long as they have a spell or power to do so. No spellcraft check.
If you pay attention to my discussion with Sysane (and I recommend rereading it), these are the the exact pages he was pointing out. However, as I noted, the entire rest of Earth Air Fire and Water, speaking from and omniscient perspective, proceeds to give tons of information that is utterly incompatible with the claims on these pages, hence my ultimate conclusion that the pages you are pointing out are in the wrong. Otherwise the entire book except for those pages has to be wrong. It’s a binary proposition, and ignoring one table on one page is easier than ignoring 40 pages of material.
Also, Dragon King’s discussion of the planes was replaced with Defiler’s and Preserver’s and so is no longer relevant.
UGH! Yeah, I’m not sure what to do with this at all. It’s in complete contradiction with literally everything else I’ve seen for the setting, whether you go with Sysane’s interpretation or my own. Considering TSR was imploding at the time, and no editing had been done for years, I’ll go with ignoring it. Plane of Magma with the portal also allowing the influence of the Gray to seep through it is.
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Or you could go the opposite route and have the elemental planes that surround Athas to have hundreds of splinter para & quasi planes… perhaps similar to the Abyssal layers instead of using it as borders between the different elements.
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Oh, please no. We’ve got to hammer these things out, including ultimately deciding on planar traits for the planes.
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Not a good idea because of more work? It ain’t like WotC is giving any thought into the setting right now. We have time for the para-elemental plane of hematite if we wanted. @redking
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Folks, I’ve had a few ideas I’d like to bounce off of you guys for my Mindmage Ascendancy campaign. They touch on the conundrum of the cosmology surrounding Athas.
Remember these are my views and may not necessarily be consistent with anyone else’s views. I’ve tried to marry the inconsistencies in various books that you have discussed here to come up with a generic explanation without doing too much of a deep dive.
Here goes.
Mindmage Ascendancy Campaign Notes (PFRPG/5e)
Extradimensional and Interplanar Travel and Communication Difficulties on Athas
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Some calamity that occurred eons ago knocked Athas off its metaphysical alignment, disrupting its connection to the rest of the cosmos, leaving disjointed and tattered tethers connecting the world to the planes. Some planar connections were completely severed, while others became twisted reflections of themselves due to a lack of primal connections with the rest of their cosmic existence.
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Athas’ planar alignment with the known universe is unlike other worlds. A planar anomaly Athasians call the Gray, forms a metaphysical barrier around the world. In certain areas it intertwines itself with the world and the ethereal plane, at times separately or conjoined with each other. This barrier is near-impenetrable and prevents travel or communication to the outer planes and makes travel to the inner planes extremely difficult. How it came to be no one knows, but when Athasians die their spirits come here with no ability to move beyond, lingering until they are absorbed into the ether of the Gray.
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To add to the convoluted nature of the planes surrounding Athas, there is a cold, dark shadowy plane that resides deep in the Gray and yet its tendrils reach into the very shadows of Athas. This strange planar dimension is known as the Black where in one moment, the landscape mimics that of Athas and in another it becomes unfamiliar and indistinct. It is said that strange creature’s both big and small dwell here, some bearing the vague likenesses of creatures long gone from the face of Athas, others are formless, angry dead with a malevolent sentience in search of prey. Those that travel into this realm are confident in their might or foolhardy to the extreme.
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Powerful psions, wizards and clerics can use their spells and abilities to travel to the elemental planes, some even dare to venture deep into the Gray searching for a connection beyond. What most find are strange hulking monstrosities with an insatiable hunger or spirits that have retained some measure of power and lead travelers astray. Some claim to have seen mysterious and indistinct structures cocooned within the impenetrable ether. Because of this and other strange things, planar and extra-dimensional travel is difficult and fraught with danger.
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Strangely enough, the difficulties in using psionic or magical travel does not extend to those abilities that use the natural elements found on Athas. Spells such as wind walk and teleport via plants and other similar spells or psionic abilities all work normally. However, when attempting psychoportation, arcane teleportation abilities or any ability that touches on the astral or ethereal planes issues arise.
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Teleportation or other extradimensional travel spells are reduced in their ability to travel long distances due to the interference this tangle of planar fabric has caused. Only true masters of arcane or psionic travel can manage to attempt these distances. Even for these skilled individuals there is a risk of a failed or erroneous travel. Less skilled individuals who try to use these modes of travel end up with deadly or debilitating consequences. Because of this any such spells and psionic abilities are reduced in effectiveness in the following ways:
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Any spells or psionic abilities that use extradimensional travel methods such as teleport or dimension door are reduced to a tenth of the range that is normally possible (e.g. teleport range goes from 100 miles per level to 10 miles per level)
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Caster/Manifesters use the table below when attempting extradimensional travel
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| Familiarity | Mishap | Similar Area | Off Target | On Target |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Permanent circle | — | — | — | 01-100 |
| Associated object | 01-05 | 06-10 | 11-25 | 26-100 |
| Very familiar | 01-10 | 11-20 | 21-35 | 36-100 |
| Seen casually | 01-20 | 21-40 | 41-60 | 60-100 |
| Viewed once | 01-50 | 51-60 | 61-75 | 76-100 |
| Description | 01-60 | 61-75 | 76-85 | 86-100 |
| False destination | 01-50 | 51-100 | — | — |
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Spells that contact the outer planes, such as legend lore are answered by powerful beings or spirits residing on these planes, never crossing to the outer planes.
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Spells that summon creatures like summon monster or Gate only summon or call wispy gray-skinned replicas of these creatures who may display different abilities than their normal counterparts. With the right components elemental creatures can manifest in a specific creature’s stead, these elementals are similar in form and power as the desired creatures.
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Spell durations for summoned creatures is halved.
Thanks for reading and commenting
June
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I’m agnostic on much of what you posted June (I’m not up to speed with 5E or PF 2E). I would say the teleport/travel rules are just cruel and capricious. Most of the spells/powers you’re talking about are 5th level or above, meaning you need a mid-level character to even have a chance of use them. Teleport in 1st to 3rd Editions already has a failure chance. Teleport without Error/Greater Teleport doesn’t (but then its a 7th level spell). If PCs are taking teleport family spells that’s one less offensive spell they can take (cone of cold, prismatic spray etc) so they’re already paying a price.
Sometimes underlying concepts need to be bent to allow cool things to happen. If you’re really set on not letting your players teleport around Athas (which I’m assuming is your plan, rather than just casually killing PCs for poor dice rolls), just get rid of the spells/powers. Either rule they don’t exist in your campaign, or make it so they never find a copy of the spell.
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Thanks for the advice. My intent overall was to marry up all of the different publications on the extraplanar and intraplanar status of Athas in non-mechanical game (non-edition) terms in the first 4 bullets.
The the next few bullets were a way for me to justify limiting the various teleportation spells to keep one of Dark Sun’s tropes (wasteland survival) going a little longer and as well as explaining why the armies don’t use any interdimensional wormholes to invade the cities. But you gave me some perspective that I hadn’t thought of. Much appreciated.
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When exactly did the “cutting off” of Athas occur? I had the impression of it being a recent event, but perhaps canon would disagree with me?
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I think that’s the problem to your question: there really isn’t a canon answer. Things are a mess from the very beginning.
My thoughts are:
The cutting off is basically a failsafe device to ensure PC’s, NPC’s or anything else for that matter cant use the planes or other worlds or Spelljamming to flood the Athas with metal weapons or other equipment making one of the primary tropes of Dark Sun - the lack of natural resources- irrelevant.
I mean even Dregoth having access to the Planar Gate is problematic. Just a few jaunts to the other planes and he would have all the metal he needs to annihilate his enemies on Athas (why he would come back is another issue - unless you go with Dregoth Ascending adventure premise)
When it happen or if it ever happened or maybe perhaps it has always been is another story.
It’s kinda like the debate of whether Athas ever had gods or not.
WJ - described temples in the ruins, many temples in large ruined cities and of course its in the novels as well. There are ancient undead that followed some gods and still exist powered by their faith in something. The explanation below are satisfying as some part of the written world contradict each of them.
- The gods went silent or died no one knows why or how
- The gods never existed, Athas doesnt have whatever it is it needs to have gods.
- Ancient peoples worshipped the elementals mistakenly attributing gods were really the elementals (in which case they would still exist) and the ancients were just ignorant for all those millennia.
- Make up what ever you want or use a combination of the above.
There is no lore to it, just conjecture you can make from previously published articles and products.
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Dregoth would not remain on Athas given the alternative paths he could take. That is the entire premise of my short stories about Dregoth living in Sigil. I am going to continue these short stories, by the way. Dregoth is going to meet a real deity.
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Lol Only if you accept my theory that Dregoth is actually only 24th level1 
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Blockquote
Dregoth’s pride and thirst for vengeance against the other SKs keeps him on Athas. He also wants to be an uncontested deity which he wouldn’t be anywhere other than Athas.
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