Originally posted by kalthandrix:
Final Version
[quote]Psiologist
“Arcane and elemental devotions are nothing but mere shadows of the true power that the Way, tempered with a Will of iron, is capable of!”
-Angaris Talon-hand, human psiologist master of Tyr.
For the psiologist, the Way is the only true path. These traditionalists believe that the Way is superior to any other physical, arcane, or divine disciplines and as long as the Will is strong, the Way can accomplish anything.
Those who travel the path of the psiologist are usually psions due to the high manifester requirements, though some psychic warriors may find this class very useful. Half-giants and elves, due to their natural tendencies in alignment, find the rigorous discipline of this class too constraining.
Psiologist’s can be found in most any school of psionics, teaching their belief in the superiority of the Way or learning from the masters in residence before traveling on to live in suclusion in order to master their Will. The belief of their strength is not an idle boast, for those who take up the path of the psiologist are some of the most powerful masters of the Unseen Way to walk the sands of Athas, achieving power and mastery of their chosen discipline that few mortals could ever dream of.
Hit Dice: d4
Requirements:
To qualify to become a psiologist, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Skills: Concentration 12 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 10 ranks, Psicraft 10 ranks.
Feats: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Psionic Endowment, Psionic Meditation.
Psionics: Manifest 5th level powers.
Special: Due to the rigorous mental and physical discipline of the psiologist, they must have a Lawful alignment. Also, due to their strong belief in the superiority of psionics, the character may not have any class levels in any class that casts arcane or divine spells. If at anytime, the psiologist takes levels in any class that has the ability to cast arcane or divine magic, all special class features for the psiologist are lost permanently and can never be regained.
Class Skills:
The psiologist’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Psicraft (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Survival (Wis). In addition to these skills, the psiologist also counts the skills granted by their respective discipline as class skills for the psiologist prestige class. Skill points at each level: 4+ Int modifier
Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the psiologist prestige class.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: The psiologist disdains the use of mundane armor and weapons, believing that there mastery of the Way is sufficient to deal with any threat. As such, they gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Powers known: A psiologist gains a the additional power points and powers known as if he had gained a level in what ever manifester class that he belonged to before he gained the prestige class. If he has more than one manifester class then he must choose only one to which to apply the increase. He does not gain any other benefit that a character of that class would normally gained, such as bonus feats or metapsionic feats.
Special Class Features:
All of the following are special class features of the psiologist prestige class.
Magical Aversion: At first level, the psiologist disdain of arcane and divine powers are fully realized. Any time the psiologist is subject to a spell that allows a saving throw they must roll the appropriate save regardless if the effect is beneficial. This also applies it the psiologist has spell resistance. The psiologist will never willing chose to fail their save in order to gain the benefit of magic. On top of this, the psiologist is allowed to only own four items (permanent, charged, or single-use) that have been crafted, enhanced, or in any way created using arcane or divine magic.
Possession in this manner is physical ownership and/or physical ownership. The psiologist may not barrow an item from another character for even a single round if doing so would place the psiologist over their four-item limit, nor can they have other characters hold items for them. For example, a psiologist is not considered to own a magical sword he has been tasked to retrieve from a bandit as long as the psiologist does not use the weapon. On the other hand, barrowing a potion-fruit of invisibility from an ally to sneak past a guard does count, while having a member in the group pour a elixir of healing down an unconscious psiologist’s throat does not count for the item limit, though the psiologist would still be required to make the appropriate save to avoid the effects of either potion.
Failure to follow this limit incurs a stiff penalty. The first time the limit is exceeded, the psiologist looses all psiologist special class features until they meditate for one hour per character level, during which time they must expend 100 experience points per psiologist level in order to regain their ‘mental balance’. The second time they break the limit restriction, the experience point cost is increased to 200 points per psiologist level, and a third time results in the loss of all special class features permanently.
The Will: At first level, the psiologist gains the two extra power points, as if he had gained the psionic talent feat. Then at second level and continuing on at every even level, he gains more power points just like selecting the psionic talent feat multiple times. So at second level, the psiologist gains three extra power points, four at 4th level, five at 6th level, ect.
Master Discipline: At first level, the psiologist becomes a true master of their chosen psionic discipline. From this point on, the cost of manifesting a power from the psiologist’s psionic discipline is reduced by one point. At fifth level the power point cost for all powers within their psionic discipline is reduced by a total of two. The power point cost may never be reduced to less then one. If the psiologist has no psionic discipline (i.e. they were a psychic warrior), they chose one at this level to apply the benefits of this ability.
The Way: Starting at third level and every two levels after the psiologist make a break-through in their studies and gain an additional power as if they had gained the expanded knowledge feat. The psiologist must follow the same guidelines of selecting a power as detailed in the expanded knowledge feat.
Master of the Way: At this level, the psiologist gains a mastery of their discipline that is unmatched by any other practitioner of the Way. The psiologist is now able to reduce the cost of manifesting all of their powers by one power point. This stacks with the Master Discipline class feature, taking their total power reduction in their selected psionic discipline to three. The psiologist also manifests the powers from their psionic discipline with much greater force and power then before. Whenever manifesting a power from their psionic discipline, the psiologist increase the DC for those powers by +1 and manifests the powers as if one level higher when determining any level based variable and the number of power points the psiologist may spend when manifesting or augmenting their powers.
LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial Powers Known<br />1+0+2+0+2Magical Aversion, The Will, Master Discipline I +1 level in existing manifester class<br />2+1+3+0+3The Will +1 level in existing manifester class<br />3+1+3+1+3The Way +1 level in existing manifester class<br />4+2+4+1+4The Will +1 level in existing manifester class<br />5+2+4+1+4The Way, Master Discipline II +1 level in existing manifester class<br />6+3+5+2+5The Will +1 level in existing manifester class<br />7+3+5+2+5The Way +1 level in existing manifester class<br />8+4+6+2+6The Will +1 level in existing manifester class<br />9+4+6+3+6The Way +1 level in existing manifester class<br />10+5+7+3+7The Will, Master of the Way +1 level in existing manifester class
[/quote]
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
This rule seems unwieldy, and ill defined. What constitues ownership? Does an item not count toward this total if it is merely lent to the Psiologist? Why four items and not five or three? Are items that might allow a saving throw to their user treated the same way as spells, or is a way to kind of side-step that rule? Can a character just carry around single use items and have a friend carry extra for them which can be given to the psiologist right after he uses them? What are the consequences for having too many magic items?
If they don’t know that it’s a magic item does it count? What if an item is both magic and psionic?
I think its great to note their general distain and avoidance of magic items (especially considering psionic alternatives are readily available in most DS campaigns), but having a specific limit on the number they can carry is pretty problematic.
Your requirements for the class definately get my approval 
, The list of class skills seems a little sparce though. Perhaps thats not really a problem I dunno?
I like the mechanic behind this ability because it rewards you for sticking with the Prestige Class, but I have a question and a suggestion. Is this ability merely like the psionic talent feat or does it build off of that feat if the character already has it? If not, it would be esier to keep track of if you just listed the number of bonus power points after the entry on the chart.
Why not have the psychic warrior choose a discipline for this tro apply to? The powers that a pyschic warrior gets are still divided up by discipline at the top of their descriptions.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
[quote]This rule seems unwieldy, and ill defined. What constitues ownership? Does an item not count toward this total if it is merely lent to the Psiologist? Why four items and not five or three? Are items that might allow a saving throw to their user treated the same way as spells, or is a way to kind of side-step that rule? Can a character just carry around single use items and have a friend carry extra for them which can be given to the psiologist right after he uses them? What are the consequences for having too many magic items?
If they don’t know that it’s a magic item does it count? What if an item is both magic and psionic?
I think its great to note their general distain and avoidance of magic items (especially considering psionic alternatives are readily available in most DS campaigns), but having a specific limit on the number they can carry is pretty problematic.[/quote]
I knew this was an area that needed to be closely defined, but I had not did it yet b/c I completed writing this at 11:30pm the night before and thought I would get some feed back first before making the final version.
The reason for 4 items is 1) carry over from the # limit from 2e and 2) I thought too many more than that would make the fact that they dislike magical items look like fake. The 4 item limit applies to, as I posted inthe discription permenant, charged, or single use items in any combination as long as the total does not exceed 4. I planned on using the definition of ownership like it is stated in the BoED for the Vow of Poverty feat.
I have thought of adding more skills- any you think would be good. Maybe litercy or intimidate?
The Will feature is just like the feat- stacking with the psionic talent feat if the character takes it.
I guess I do not understand what you are saying. I state in the discription that the psychic warriors DO select a psionic devotion because up to that point they do not have one.
Originally posted by lyric:
I like it, its simply, tasteful, and asside from the points mentioned, well laid out.
Ever thought of redesigning the Crystalite Psionicist from 2e? I’ve always loved the idea of a psionicist who uses a crystal as a focus for his powers.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
[quote]I like it, its simply, tasteful, and asside from the points mentioned, well laid out.
Ever thought of redesigning the Crystalite Psionicist from 2e? I’ve always loved the idea of a psionicist who uses a crystal as a focus for his powers.[/quote]
What book is it from- I have most everything except for a few of the Dragon mags. with the DS material. It must be in one of those because I do not remember the kit- but I could be wrong.
There was a Crystal ‘something’ PrC that was in the Mind’s Eye material from the D&D website that if you have not, I would suggest that you looks at it. It has a pretty high cool factor.
Thanks for the compliments BTW.
Originally posted by travis_ui:
I just noticed that in the description of the ability “The Way” you state that the benefit is gained at third level and every three levels thereafter, but in the progression illustrated below that it shows “The Way” at third level and every two levels thereafter. I assume that was an editing error?
Originally posted by ruhl-than_sage:
Right on 
, I understand.
While that does answer quite a few of the questions you have just inadvertantly backed yourself into a hole 
. The Vow of Poverty feat is not (as far as I know) OGC content and thusly cannot be plagurized for the pupose of your PrC. You’ll have to write it wholesale, explaining how it works in your own terms to avoid copyright infringement.
Intimidate seems appropriate, but I was actually thinking about allowing them to continue to have access to their Discipline specific skills as Class skills. Perhaps that could be written in to the master discipline description or noted in the skill list. The reason being that they end up mastering their choosen discipline, so they should be well versed with the skills that ordinarily come with the discipline.
Sounds good , you should note that in the description
opps, I guess I misread that.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
Just updated the PrC in my original post. I made a few changes, mostly taking out the Master Discipline III and replacing it with something simular, but more rewarding for those who stick with it class for 10 levels.
I have also taken several of your suggestions and I humbly give you my thanks for the feedback that you provided. If you like the class, tell Jon to add it to the next update to the PrC’s for Athas. If you don’t like it well, 
!!!
Hahahah, just kidding. I had fun putting this together and hope someone else will get some use from it too.
Originally posted by jon_oracle_of_athas:
Send it to jon@athas.org subject line “Prestige Class suggestion”
Originally posted by Pennarin:
This particular PrC will be fun to see as part of Appendix II, as two very different Psiologist PrCs now exist, one by Kalthandrix, the other by Methvezem. So I can imagine Jon will be able to create an hybrid with the best features from both classes.
Originally posted by methvezem:
As Pennarin pointed out, I did a PrC based on the psiologist last year, quite different from yours, which is quite good btw.
You can read about it here:psiologist PrC. Feel free to comment it.
Both prestige classes could be available if we change the name of one or the other 
.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
[quote]As Pennarin pointed out, I did a PrC based on the psiologist last year, quite different from yours, which is quite good btw.
You can read about it here:psiologist PrC. Feel free to comment it.
Both prestige classes could be available if we change the name of one or the other .[/quote]
I have to agree with Pennarin- the two versions of the PrC are REALLY different.
Methvenzem- I like your version and can see why you went the way you did 
. Your version is much more school/acedemicly focused and while I mentioned the psiologists training at psionic schools I did not add anything for it in the class features.
I think that both would be great additions to the Appendix II, instead of chopping the two up to make a single hybrid version. Appendix I was really lacking in psionicist PrC’s so as I said, both would be handy.
Originally posted by methvezem:
I so agree with you. I’ll think about a new name like academician, academist or something else. If anyone has an idea, let me know.
Originally posted by flip:
Master Dicipline seems pretty powerful. Since metamagic and augmenting work off a limit of not costing more than your highest level power, it does more than just allow you to manifest more often, it also allows you to push past the ordinary damage cap for your level.
So, a psion/9, psiologist/5 (14th level) can deal damage as a 16th level character, by simply using those saved points to augment the power. This actually is signifigant.
So, I’m pondering wether or not the Magical Aversion restriction counterbalaces this. In DS(1|2) this restriction was a big deal, because AD&D2 psionic items were exceedingly rare. Now, it depends on how your DM adjusts the percentage chances on a random treasure table. (Quick and dirty: d20 1-11 roll in the XPH, 12-20 roll in the DMG. Gives a slightly higher than 50% chance for finding psionic items. Doesn’t allow that potions are probably just as common. I said it was dirty.)
Just something to consider.
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
[quote]Master Discipline seems pretty powerful. Since metamagic and augmenting work off a limit of not costing more than your highest level power, it does more than just allow you to manifest more often, it also allows you to push past the ordinary damage cap for your level.
So, a psion/9, psiologist/5 (14th level) can deal damage as a 16th level character, by simply using those saved points to augment the power. This actually is significant.[/quote]
There is a feat, and I could be wrong about the spelling of the name, Elemental Admixture, allows a wizard to deal damage twice- once for each element at their total damage cap, making a fire/lightning ball that deals 10d6 fire and 10d6 electrical damage for. There are also psionic items that allow a psionicist to lower the cost of their powers as well, allowing them to exceed the level cap that you point out.
The Master Discipline shows the psiologist’s extreme focus on their chosen psionic discipline. Another point to remember, as a mitigating factor, that this PrC effectively disallows the character from multi-classing in all spell-casting classes (i.e., no advanced being progression).
[quote]So, I’m pondering wither or not the Magical Aversion restriction counterbalances this. In DS (1|2) this restriction was a big deal, because AD&D2 psionic items were exceedingly rare. Now, it depends on how your DM adjusts the percentage chances on a random treasure table. (Quick and dirty: d20 1-11 roll in the XPH, 12-20 roll in the DMG. Gives a slightly higher than 50% chance for finding psionic items. Doesn’t allow that potions are probably just as common. I said it was dirty.)
Just something to consider.[/quote]
The magical aversion carries some pretty heavy penalties. Players who take this class would most likely like the flavor and restrictions that are imposed by taking up the mantel of a psiologist.
Another point is that all treasure is discretionary, meaning that the Dm has the ultimate power when choosing what items to allow within their campaigns. IMO this feature is a great DM tool and provides some great role-playing dynamics. Any feature can be abused if the DM allows it.
All that said, I am not saying that this Pr is perfect and will entertain any good recommendations.
Originally posted by flip:
I’ll look that up when I get home. I don’t remember admixture being a feat that doubled the damage potential, just that it let the damage be of more than one elemental type…
I recognize the purpose of the ability.
Inability to take other prestige classes should not be considered balancing factors for any particular prestige class. Dragons and such have to be balanced just as much as everything else does. PrCs should stand up on their own reasonably well.
Right, and my point was that I was musing about whether or not it was really anything more than flavor … but I was forgetting about the need to save against even friendly spells. Which is definately a disadvantage …
Originally posted by kalthandrix:
[quote]I recognize the purpose of the ability.
Inability to take other prestige classes should not be considered balancing factors for any particular prestige class. Dragons and such have to be balanced just as much as everything else does. PrCs should stand up on their own reasonably well.[/quote]
I want to clairify my point. This class does not allow any cross classing with any class that has the ability to cast arcane or divine magic (core classes and PrC’s), doing so causes the PC to lose all psiologist special class features instantly- I will include this point in the PrC. Just owning above the alloted 4 magic items could result in losing almost all benefits from this PrC permenantly.
-Added additional wording in the requirements section to detail what happens if the character ever takes levels in a spell casting class.
Originally posted by Pennarin:
I really don’t like the Magical Aversion ability, not that I’d mix magic and psionics with someone who took this PrC, but IMO one does not need to have an aversion to anything to succeed at something else.
The only aversion I see that works is the XPH’s anti-psionic feats.
Originally posted by flip:
Again, nearly a non-restriction. If you’re taking a class like this, you’re focusing on psionics anyway. If you wanted spellcaster levels, you’d be taking levels in the Cerebremancer class, instead of burning levels on a focused class that only benefits one aspect.
Spellcasters and Manifesters in D&D generally suffer from mutliclassing. Sometimes signifigantly so. Heck, they even suffer from level adjustments (unless the race has some seriously signifigant abilities or adjustments to the spellcaster’s primary ability score, it’s almost never worth it, from a straight min/max perspective). Cutting off multiclassing options is fluff, not balance.
Don’t get me wrong, as flavor, it’s good, and I’m definately not arguing that it be taken away.
However, as a character, I can operate completely normally under these restrictions, without suffering from them. There are likely enough psionic items that the cap of 4 won’t cripple me in the slightest. The only thing that does come out as a restriction that actually has to be dealt with is the requirement to make a save even against buff spells. That is a true restriction, and one that affects the balance of the class. There are ways for a psion to heal himself, but none quite as effective as a cleric …